DR2 E-Sports - How People should rise?

[Mike Dee 1,248]

nbates66 said:

CatBadders said:

I'm all for 100% stock tunings used in events to fully mitigate min-maxing setups. 

I would agree, but ALL of the stock setups available must be drivable and not completely unusable, if this can't be managed by release then perhaps allow submissions after release?

I understand the reasoning, but I completely disagree. Yes, some of the stock tunings are absolute dumpster fires but dealing with shitty situations is a core part of rally. So let people start off the line in 2nd gear and redline 5th way too early, learning to maximize those short comings are what separate the good from the great. Embrace it.

[bogani 756]

JorritVD said:

For Rallycross there should be bigger online rooms for f.e. organised leagues.
- 10-20 drivers
- possibility to rejoin if lost connection 
- 2,3,4 quali races rounds
- races during same time or after each other (depend on live stream) and also get the possibility to watch other friends race.
- top 12 to semi-finals
- top three of each semi to the main final 
- possible of official WRX/ERX/ARX broadcast graphics. F.e. Introduction graphics at start with name / flag / profile picture / car, etc. Maybe show this during the loading screen.

Totally agree, I've been shouting about a a true to life online structure since pre D4. Big lobbies where people get divided into heats fighting to qualify for the finals.

[afahoy 190]

I wonder if it'd be possible to have the game automatically upload the replay file, and make it available on the leaderboard so anyone can view it.

[Riggs 1,668]

dgeesi0 said:

first thing allow people to copy each others set ups or keep set ups fixed. that way it becomes about skill and racing rallying. not set up. this was done wrong in dirt 4 world championships for eg. some could use set ups that others cant. you are instantly behind before even starting if someone has a better set up. either make the system like f1 copy set up use. or...lock them so all level playing field.

2nd. rather than rant on about it . stop cheating better. add hardware bans. make a stance on this. too many racing games . games in general try to do esports but cant even control cheating. wrc 7 was rife was it. instantly put me off even though broke loads of world records and faster than many who entered the world series. one was removed right just before the final. people even communicated with the devs about the cheating. wasnt dealt with well.

some fast people or even faster than world champions wont even do events or leagues sometimes because of this. if you offer big prizes there will always be people willing to cheat to get them. dirt 4 f1 had cheats available during world championships.this shouldnt happen.

dirt rally darren did his best but basically it was a wipe then they returned. you have to have a legit playing field.it has to be a no tollerance policy and vac ban hardware ban people that do.

listen to people who are actualy going to take part ! this is such a big thing ! kinda hypercritical cause i probably wont do it even if im smashing world records but many people here will suggest things but wont be taking part. some will be good ideas but some ideas will be pointless as they wont be involved anyway. maybe thats me included. :D

i think codemasters has done quite well with f1 rally is obviously the next step and something i crowed on about quite a few times. so its nice to see it happening finally.

get people to run all surfaces. with different types of cars modern and historical. some people are fast in fwd but slow in RWD . dont allow one type of rallying to dominate the overall scores with silly points system. so for eg rally cross events 3 races vs 3 rallys. 3 rallys are harder to do fast than quick circuit races. someone whos fast at circuit rally cross could potentially win a rally crown yet be slow at the actual rally events. which tbh are what you here for. or how i see it.

Locking setups makes no sense. That's part of the game and becoming a better more complete driver. Different setups allow for different types of driving, just like in WRC. Carlos Sainz had by far the best setup knowledge but even that didnt mean he won all the rallies, it still comes down to skill and adapting to the setup you choose. Forcing the default setups is just bad and in certain situations the car will handle horribly (looking at tarmac for example).

Totally agree on the bans. Cheaters need to be knocked for good. But rather than a hardware ban, make it an ID ban (both on consoles and on steam), so if they want to cheat again they have to make another account and buy the game again. Some cheaters will come back through this process and that's also a way to support the game with sales xD Since it's a new account they'll have to start over from the bottom and if they cheat again they'll get caught before they reach the top levels.

Regarding your last point, to be honest Rally and Rallycross should be totally separated championships which could be running simultaneously. E.g.: One weekend you do a rally round for the rally championship and the following one it's the rallycross round for the RX championship. It just doesn't make sense mixing them all together as they are completely different and it'd be unfair. Plus given the amount of RX content, it's possible to do a championship on its own.

----
Last but not least, this has been hinted before in a dev insight, but we need a proper spectator mode and a replay feature like a demo that can be downloaded and imported into the game to be seen. This will allow for more accurate cheat inspection and proper video coverage for live events.

[dgeesi0 305]

set ups are massive. in dirt 4 unless you had unlocked certain features you couldnt make the same set up as someone else who had unlocked it ! that was in the world championships ! so someone could have a big advantage over someone by having certain set ups unlocked.

you have to set the same references so people can compete with the same chances. f1 has this yet its not in dirt games.

if the default set ups are good enough it doesnt matter. you have real life rally drivers at codemasters .this should be achievable.

[ChristinaMc 784]

Just a quick one to say thanks for starting this thread - we're watching. :) 

[Riggs 1,668]

dgeesi0 said:

set ups are massive. in dirt 4 unless you had unlocked certain features you couldnt make the same set up as someone else who had unlocked it ! that was in the world championships ! so someone could have a big advantage over someone by having certain set ups unlocked.

you have to set the same references so people can compete with the same chances. f1 has this yet its not in dirt games.

if the default set ups are good enough it doesnt matter. you have real life rally drivers at codemasters .this should be achievable.

Oh wait a minute. I think i misread something in your previous post then. I thought you were talking about forcing default setups (same setups for everyone).
In that case, yes, setups should be fully unlocked and the same for everyone so anyone can set up the car without limitations or lack of unlockables and with same parameters.

[Dytut 89]

For me personally what is most fun is fighting with another driver over a season of a few weeks. Even when doing events in DR, I know of a few players that I personally judge my performance against. 

So leagues/divisions that run a few weeks would be awesome for me. 
I'd format it as:
World divisions - three tiers of worldwide divisions, with a max of 30-40 in Tier 1, about 100 in tier 2, 300 in tier 3. 
Bottom third get demoted (including non participants) and replaced by the top of the division under for each season. 
These world divisions would be the best of the best.

To reach the world division, you participate in qualifiers. For example, have a special qualifier weekly event open for everyone (except the world division drivers), and the top 100 total during a season get moved up to World Tier 3 replacing the bottom third.

Length of a season would probably be 4-6 weeks, or whatever might suit.

This would complement the regular community events in a nice way, and getting into Tier 3 it would start to become serious fights with drivers that you'd begin to know more and more. 

[RodgerDavies 933]

Regarding divisions, if you take a look at the way the Raceroom leaderboards work they have a mechanism for dividing up into divisions.

[mirk1983 18]

dgeesi0 said:

set ups are massive. in dirt 4 unless you had unlocked certain features you couldnt make the same set up as someone else who had unlocked it ! that was in the world championships ! so someone could have a big advantage over someone by having certain set ups unlocked.

you have to set the same references so people can compete with the same chances. f1 has this yet its not in dirt games.

if the default set ups are good enough it doesnt matter. you have real life rally drivers at codemasters .this should be achievable.

In the world championship we had only stock cars and 40 points to use on setup as i remember it. At least in the quarter final and higher. 

[superdorfer 11]

Generally speaking, I am pretty happy with the daily event format in terms of contest (rarely doing those events these days). I really hope they implement it for DR 2.0 as well.

Competition in dailies is fierce, but the whole thing is on the fun side. Whenever I like the car/track combination, I do participate, otherwise I just skip. Although I like to twek setups a little, having default setups is mostly prefered, since every participant is using the same setup. Accordingly, it is simply a matter of skill. Also I highly like the fact, that you have ONE shot - hit or miss. Not rerunning stages until one can claim a world record whatsoever. This is not nature of rally.

Also, as @Dytut mentioned, I like to compare myself against the same handful of people. I always check out the same guys in the leaderboards.

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

Another thing I think it would be cool is to get some weekly leaderboard challenges with infinite number of runs, also you can engage people to buy a dlc by making them try the car in a daily or a challange

[dgeesi0 305]

mirk1983 said:

dgeesi0 said:

set ups are massive. in dirt 4 unless you had unlocked certain features you couldnt make the same set up as someone else who had unlocked it ! that was in the world championships ! so someone could have a big advantage over someone by having certain set ups unlocked.

you have to set the same references so people can compete with the same chances. f1 has this yet its not in dirt games.

if the default set ups are good enough it doesnt matter. you have real life rally drivers at codemasters .this should be achievable.

In the world championship we had only stock cars and 40 points to use on setup as i remember it. At least in the quarter final and higher. 

at the start you couldnt fully unlock cars i couldnt. for eg i couldnt unlock a lancia to the same setting that joona had. forget points to unlock or anything. make same set ups or allow anyone to copy others set ups. im sure something will be sorted. this was obviously over looked or not known to be important thats why i mentioned it. once you get the fastest people in its down to hundredths of a second and set ups make the difference or can make the difference. i dont agree with drivers doing the set ups as mostly the mechanics engineers on the teams do the work not the drivers. they just give feedback on the set ups and then its adjusted. so its not down to the driver.

dailies and such just make sure its either limited attempts or a single attempt that cant be duped or got out of like some did in dirt rally. like killing process on a bad run or whatever get around. there is a lot of difference between a top run over loads of attempts vs 1 run thats what you get.

as some are suggesting you could split up things into different sections. this may even be the better route to go. i guess it comes down to how many will compete.

[JorritVD 1,236]

We got daily, weekly and monthly challenges.

Maybe add to that a "Season" challenge.
I think mostly fits to Rally, so it could also be called "Rally Season" challenge.
How this a season challenge could work?
- A season ofcourse focuses on a longer period of time and on multiple (rally) events.
- A season could be based on weekly or montly challenges, but i think it is best to keep it more standalone.
- You can enter all events, or a few, or maybe just a one-off. 
- A season is based on a period of three months. A event is like a combination of a weekly and a montly challenge. it will be two weeks and with about 12 stages. So in three months you drive all 6 rallies. With DLC the 6 rallies can be mixed.  
- About the cars and Rise. Maybe in this case I would keep the car class system real and simple. So R2, R4 and R5. Everyone starts in the R2 class in its first season. If you reach certain objectives you can promote to the R4 or R5 class. These objectives could be like "Finish three rallies with a R2 car", "Get the international A license at the rally school", "Finish in tier 2 or higher". 

[Riggs 1,668]

I'd like to point out that, no matter how it is done, it should feel like it's a career. There's no better feeling than knowing you're starting your own career and a new season, pretty much like it has been designed in GRID (Autosport i think?) multiplayer. If they can combine the singleplayer career elements and the competitive multiplayer, no matter what car you drive it'll feel fantastic.

I've said this once and I'll say it again: DiRT 4 Pro Tour's foundations are very good for a start. If they develop things around that, with more UI/UX and other features I'm sure we'll be fine.

[dgeesi0 305]

nothing GRID related should be added. autosport didnt do any good either. why would you copy that.

you dont need to do fancy this and that. you just need  simple system which cant be abused or cheated and shows who is the fastest at the game at hand. people are going too complex when simplicity is what you want. all the best ideas are simple. so many miss this. you want to achieve your objective in the least amount of steps effort needed.

its really simple.

1 event + FWD class

1 event + RWD class

1 event + RX class

allow through numbers to qualify that works.

finals you could do a map or event thats not out or in a previous dirt rally game. so its the very first go at it as you do the finals. then theres no practice. this will test people and top drivers should come through. especially if you havent practiced it or been on the event before. codies say they are doing dlc. so this maybe possible.

[Riggs 1,668]

Oversimplifying won't make it either. Remember rally is mainly a show, an entertainment, and should be treated as such as well. So fancy is needed.

[Mike Dee 1,248]

AIPacino said:

Oversimplifying won't make it either. Remember rally is mainly a show, an entertainment, and should be treated as such as well. So fancy is needed.

It's a balancing act. The basic progression needs to be simple and straight forward: finish in top X% of your division you move up, bottom Y%  move down. Get through X and Y, you move into Z, and top of Z% is the "pro" tier. As you move up, the pool of eligible cars for an event becomes filled with faster, more challenging cars. Rally is its own championship, RallyX is it' own thing too. And the entire championship/seasons are limited to a single class - you don't fluctuate every other week, you commit and own that tier.

Now where the depth needs to be is in the actual pointing system and the individual battles between racers each event. Build a system that helps encourage rivalries between individuals, helps to distinguish certain drivers in a specific field (ie: FWD/RWD), and easily showcases player movements within a tier.

I should be paying just as much attention to where @AIPacino is finishing each stage/event as I am my own position. THAT is where you'll build a die-hard base of players actively competing and climbing. Hell introduce a badge for what tier we've reached that shows on leaderboards too so you can see when a low tier driver posted an iminsa time against "pro" tier challengers

[dgeesi0 305]

AIPacino said:

Oversimplifying won't make it either. Remember rally is mainly a show, an entertainment, and should be treated as such as well. So fancy is needed.

you getting confused. the system isnt the show. you want it as simple as possible so anyone can follow whats going off ! by complicating things more you risk alienating people watching .the exact opposite of what you want as a spectator sport. as a esport.

the show you leave upto those organising it. you need go replay cams. so important. the ones currently and for years back just simply arent good enough. i asked for many years for this to be better 10 years plus. i think maybe codies will do something for that to change. who knows.

so simply put .

simple system.

f1 style grand big show likes just been done.

better replay cams.for viewers.

[Riggs 1,668]

dgeesi0 said:

AIPacino said:

Oversimplifying won't make it either. Remember rally is mainly a show, an entertainment, and should be treated as such as well. So fancy is needed.

you getting confused. the system isnt the show. you want it as simple as possible so anyone can follow whats going off ! by complicating things more you risk alienating people watching .the exact opposite of what you want as a spectator sport. as a esport.

the show you leave upto those organising it. you need go replay cams. so important. the ones currently and for years back just simply arent good enough. i asked for many years for this to be better 10 years plus. i think maybe codies will do something for that to change. who knows.

so simply put .

simple system.

f1 style grand big show likes just been done.

better replay cams.for viewers.

Agree. I was talking about a different thing but your list resumed my opinion after all.
What I was suggesting was that we could have some kind of means to track progress. That's where those UI/UX improvements come in. It'd be nice to have a proper ladder system we could check in-game and maybe one or two progress bars to track progress if there's even that, rather than just dropping there an oversimplyfied UI like Pro Tour on D4. By oversimplyfied i mean it lacks information, Im not saying the design itself isn't good or that it needs to be more confusing, it simply needs more information or shortcuts to that information because it felt a bit loose.

The layouts Codemasters made for the eSports DWC web page were in the right direction for example.

[stcooza 16]

How the best player should picked and rise ? 

In my opinion nothing test the rally driver abilities than put him in the stage at the first shot, which means the stages should be designed specially for the e-sport competition no one can try it and practice it because what’s the meaning of the pace notes if you already saved the stage in your mind in every single corner after you play it so many times..

So... any thoughts? 

(Sorry for my bad expression it’s a point and I tried to explain it greeting to all of you guys from Saudi Arabia ?? ❤️)

[JorritVD 1,236]

Last time i spoke about season events. Today I was thinking about the idea of weekend events. Kinda a short rally that takes place in the weekend. A season contains multiple weekend events and has multiple divisions.

i think the same for Rallycross. A kinda pyramid division construction 

the online part part of the game I think should be separate compared to the offline part of the game. So economy, cars, team should be separate imo. 

So you start with 30.000 credits and a sponsor. Start in super 1600 in the fifth division. Free entry, but also low sponsor and prize money. If you reach certain targets you can promote to division four. Though you need to reach certain targets to keep sponsors, to promote to a higher or to stay in the same division. If you can’t keep reaching the division or sponsor targets you might be forced to go back to a lower level or sell a car.

at the start of a season you know the basic costs for the season and you know your sponsor budget. Every event you enter you unlock a part of the sponsor budget to the costs. But you can earn or loose money. So the balance after the race could be positive or negative. Depends if you race clean, crash, finish high and get prize money or finish low. 

[superdorfer 11]

What about team events in general? Teams of 2 drivers or more. That would add a sense of community thinking - driving as a team, skill management according to surface ect.

[Riggs 1,668]

JorritVD said:

Last time i spoke about season events. Today I was thinking about the idea of weekend events. Kinda a short rally that takes place in the weekend. A season contains multiple weekend events and has multiple divisions.

i think the same for Rallycross. A kinda pyramid division construction 

the online part part of the game I think should be separate compared to the offline part of the game. So economy, cars, team should be separate imo. 

So you start with 30.000 credits and a sponsor. Start in super 1600 in the fifth division. Free entry, but also low sponsor and prize money. If you reach certain targets you can promote to division four. Though you need to reach certain targets to keep sponsors, to promote to a higher or to stay in the same division. If you can’t keep reaching the division or sponsor targets you might be forced to go back to a lower level or sell a car.

at the start of a season you know the basic costs for the season and you know your sponsor budget. Every event you enter you unlock a part of the sponsor budget to the costs. But you can earn or loose money. So the balance after the race could be positive or negative. Depends if you race clean, crash, finish high and get prize money or finish low. 

superdorfer said:

What about team events in general? Teams of 2 drivers or more. That would add a sense of community thinking - driving as a team, skill management according to surface ect.

I like and support both these ideas. An online career would feel great, as well as a team mode or team championship but this one would have to be a separated ranking and with its own rewards, just like in real life that works concurrently. Im not sure how these rewards would be given or what kind of unbalancing it would have in the game against people without teams.

What we could have as well is manufacturers ranking for the top end tier of the eSports, like it's being applied in F1. I'm not sure how or wether the players pick the cars or not, or if it's the team that chooses them, but it'd add another level of immersion and spectacle.

[ALF 8]

superdorfer said:

What about team events in general? Teams of 2 drivers or more. That would add a sense of community thinking - driving as a team, skill management according to surface ect.

Similar to GRiD Autosport Clubs? e-Sports of teams vs Teams... I like this idea.