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fIsince08 said:
Technically, Dallara are building the chassis, not Haas.
True to an extent. Dallara are doing the chassis construction, and will have have some design input, but the project is going to be run and led mainly by the Haas engineers. As far as I'm aware. 

Haas F1 - the American F1 team with an Italian chassis, Italian engine, Italian gearbox and an Italian technical director (Gunther Steiner). 
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VetteIfan said:
fIsince08 said:
Technically, Dallara are building the chassis, not Haas.
True to an extent. Dallara are doing the chassis construction, and will have have some design input, but the project is going to be run and led mainly by the Haas engineers. As far as I'm aware. 

Haas F1 - the American F1 team with an Italian chassis, Italian engine, Italian gearbox and an Italian technical director (Gunther Steiner). 
It wouldn't be American if we didn't outsource the majority of the work. It's the American way. 
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There's also been some rule changes for next season confirmed:
  • Any driver that causes an aborted start will be forced to start from the pitlane, regardless of whether they can then take the second start or not
  • Drivers must make "every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason". Penalties will still be applied
  • All cars will have a separate wastegate tailpipe to increase the noise without effecting efficiency
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Apparently a lot of the big teams want Michelin to become the next tyre supplier. I'm not sure, I don't like having the drivers manage the tyres, but equally a lot of pit stops can provide a welcome break to a boring race ala Suzuka.
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This could all be solved if teams could use ground effect downforce, as you can follow cars a lot better. They could then use durable tyres and push a lot more. That was the one thing I was hoping for in 2017, but it's not going to happen. Having cars going 5 seconds a lap quicker isn't going to change the excitement at all.
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Hughesy said:
This could all be solved if teams could use ground effect downforce, as you can follow cars a lot better. They could then use durable tyres and push a lot more. That was the one thing I was hoping for in 2017, but it's not going to happen. Having cars going 5 seconds a lap quicker isn't going to change the excitement at all.
They are using ground effect, but the problem is that they are still using normal aero too. The front wings aren't going to be much simpler so following another car will still be impossible.

I agree that in a situation where cars can follow and pass, durable tyres are a must.
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Since he's staying on for 2016 it's probably a safe bet he'll be in for 2017 and possibly beyond as well considering he's expressed enthusiasm for the new regulations coming in and I'm sure he wants a piece of that action.

Ron Dennis wants to keep Jenson. Jenson likes the 2017 regulations. Jenson stays at McLaren in 2017. You heard it here first.
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Yup, I agree with that.

I genuinely thought that JB would be retiring at the end of this year, his interview I saw with Sky F1 at Singapore, he just seemed as if he had had enough, but I'm glad he's staying at it for another year.

McLaren Honda had better well deliver, him and Alonso shouldn't be at the back of the grid.
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fIsince08 said:
Hughesy said:
This could all be solved if teams could use ground effect downforce, as you can follow cars a lot better. They could then use durable tyres and push a lot more. That was the one thing I was hoping for in 2017, but it's not going to happen. Having cars going 5 seconds a lap quicker isn't going to change the excitement at all.
They are using ground effect, but the problem is that they are still using normal aero too. The front wings aren't going to be much simpler so following another car will still be impossible.

I agree that in a situation where cars can follow and pass, durable tyres are a must.
Actually they aren't really, as a top F1 boffin said, there's lots they aren't able to do, and if they could then following and overtaking would be easier ;) They will always have front and rear wings, but the problem is even faster cars find it hard to overtake, if they had ground effect then the lose of downforce wouldn't affect them so bad and they'd still be able to fight and overtake.

Mexicola said:
McLaren Honda won't be able to do much next year, which is another reason why I think Jenson would have retired either this year or not for a while yet. It would be a total waste of time if he signed up just for 2016 and walked off.
The one that will leave is Alonso. Whenever the going gets tough, Alonso gets going.
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Hughesy said:
This could all be solved if teams could use ground effect downforce, as you can follow cars a lot better. They could then use durable tyres and push a lot more. That was the one thing I was hoping for in 2017, but it's not going to happen. Having cars going 5 seconds a lap quicker isn't going to change the excitement at all.
As someone who studies at University about this kind of stuff, I can tell you it really isn't that simple. If it was as simple as just giving the cars more ground effect freedom, it would've been approved by the overtaking working group a long time ago.

Chris is right, the cars do use ground effect, albeit in a very restricted way. For every car on the grid the biggest downforce generation is from the underbody. But put simply, the wake of a wing without ground effect will give an up-wash, as when the wing is forced down the air is forced up. With a strong ground effect there is a lift generated by the pressure on the ground, and summed with the upwash from the car, this reduces the net upwash to almost zero. So rather than the wake been forced up and over the next car, the ground effect forces the wake to hang around at car height. Affecting the following car more badly. The 2009 regulations were based around this and that's why we have the rear wing and diffuser shape we have now. 

It's also a misconception that the front wings are completley to blame. Put simply again, both the front wing, rear wing and underbody all lose a similar amount of their percentage downforce when following another car. The problem is the aerodynamic balance normally shifts rearward in a wake, increasing the overall understeer. However, I do agree on the fact that the front wings are so sensitive and so complex, that they can make the general issue even worse. 
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VetteIfan said:
Hughesy said:
This could all be solved if teams could use ground effect downforce, as you can follow cars a lot better. They could then use durable tyres and push a lot more. That was the one thing I was hoping for in 2017, but it's not going to happen. Having cars going 5 seconds a lap quicker isn't going to change the excitement at all.
As someone who studies at University about this kind of stuff, I can tell you it really isn't that simple. If it was as simple as just giving the cars more ground effect freedom, it would've been approved by the overtaking working group a long time ago.

Chris is right, the cars do use ground effect, albeit in a very restricted way. For every car on the grid the biggest downforce generation is from the underbody. But put simply, the wake of a wing without ground effect will give an up-wash, as when the wing is forced down the air is forced up. With a strong ground effect there is a lift generated by the pressure on the ground, and summed with the upwash from the car, this reduces the net upwash to almost zero. So rather than the wake been forced up and over the next car, the ground effect forces the wake to hang around at car height. Affecting the following car more badly. The 2009 regulations were based around this and that's why we have the rear wing and diffuser shape we have now. 

It's also a misconception that the front wings are completley to blame. Put simply again, both the front wing, rear wing and underbody all lose a similar amount of their percentage downforce when following another car. The problem is the aerodynamic balance normally shifts rearward in a wake, increasing the overall understeer. However, I do agree on the fact that the front wings are so sensitive and so complex, that they can make the general issue even worse. 
You might want to read this, some experts disagree with you.....
http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120362 . As I said in my post they are very restricted in what they can do with the floor. The front wing at the moment is the most important thing as it sets the rest of the car up, but there are ways of still using them without it affecting the airflow too much when behind another car. ;)

And on your other point, no they wouldn't agree to it even if it was simple, as F1 can't make logical decisions as has been proven for a long time.

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Hughesy said:
You might want to read this, some experts disagree with you.....
http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120362 . As I said in my post they are very restricted in what they can do with the floor. The front wing at the moment is the most important thing as it sets the rest of the car up, but there are ways of still using them without it affecting the airflow too much when behind another car. ;)

And on your other point, no they wouldn't agree to it even if it was simple, as F1 can't make logical decisions as has been proven for a long time.

Since when was Bob Fernley an expert? The man who called windtunnels "dinosaur technology". A statement summarised by Pat Symonds and James Allison as "ridiculous" and "moronic". 

Anyway, you've taken my post the wrong way. Nothing is wrong or right in aero (as long as it obeys basic principles). Everything is a theory, if there was one right answer all the cars' front wings would look the same. My point was its not as simple as "just give the cars ground effect", as I summarised with my explanation of how the 2009 aero rules came about. From a personal viewpoint, I'd love to see ground effect come back in terms of putting on a show, because the cars would be spectacular, but they wouldn't necesserily find it that much easier to follow each other. The GP2 cars have ground effect tunnels and suffer from problems in wake too, albeit not as much because the cars do produce less downforce in total.

And as for the front wings, we agree. They need to be less complex and be less sensitive to changing the whole aero profile of the car (my point aside from that was all areas of the car area affeted by wake, not just the front wing. Some people sometimes get confused by that). There was a study I read a while back where the writer was playing around with the front wing angle of an F1 car 2013 model in CFD - when he took wing out of the car, while it decreased the front wing's drag (as expected), it actually increased the total drag of the car due to different path of air interacting badly with the rear tyre area. It's mindfuckery, but that's why aerodynamicists are so well paid. 
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Hughesy said:


Mexicola said:
McLaren Honda won't be able to do much next year, which is another reason why I think Jenson would have retired either this year or not for a while yet. It would be a total waste of time if he signed up just for 2016 and walked off.
The one that will leave is Alonso. Whenever the going gets tough, Alonso gets going.
Like when he did at Ferrari right?


Anyway, Button staying is a blow to Vandoorne, who now won't race unless he goes to the States or something and Magnussen, whose F1-career was all but done anyway. McLaren need to pick up a thing or two from Red Bull on how to deal with their talents.
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Lukedfrt said:
You can't really blame Alonso for leaving Ferrari, they failed to deliver for him 5 years in a row... 2014 should of been the year that Ferrari delivered, but they weren't even 2nd best. 
True, you can't blame him if he went to join Mercedes/Red Bull. But going to McLaren was always a risk, they were in even worse shape than Ferrari at the time, and Honda were never going to be the leaders of the engine pack with years less experience under their belt. 

Admittedly it wasn't helped by Ron Dennis' propaganda of the Honda engine. Think the terms were "mind blowing" and "a piece of jewellery". I guess he was right in one respect, it certainly is mind blowing. 
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Mercedes is all for three car teams if Red bull and Toro Rosso leave but at the same time would like to see them stay.

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It seems a bit hypocritical to me because they won't supply them a engine but they want them to stay in the sport, and theres no definite answer from Ferrari yet.
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Ferrari are only going to supply Toro Rosso but not Red Bull, so not sure where that leaves them.... As a team I don't want them to go, but I'd quite happily see the Redbull owner to F off. They dominated for four years and as soon as they have a bad season, they take their ball and run.

Banter: https://twitter.com/chrismedlandf1/status/652405445697605632
https://twitter.com/thepitwalluk/status/652406155961106432
https://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/status/652407785049706496


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