The Formula 1 Stuff Thread

[VetteIfan]

PeteTheDuck said:

I'd really like this to happen as I've always loved Audi's (probably through Dad!), and if they make their own engines too, which I guess they probably will, then we'd have five engine manufacturers on the grid which is fantastic. I think it's really helped this year that Mercedes have won the championship. It shows that a car manufacturer can come into F1 and win, so that would be great to get some more manufacturers in.

The report says they might buy an existing team and work with what they have? Toro Rosso actually seems like quite a logical choice. Red Bull seem to have very close links to Audi through the DTM, and I guess Red Bull could still use Audi as a training ground for their younger drivers? 

I swear you mention your Dad's love for Audi every time they are mentioned haha. Not a criticism, just an observation :P If they did happen to join though you'd have a bit of a conflict of interest as you're favourite driver will be driving for what would be Audi's arch rival team. 

But anyway, enough if's and but's for one day. There's a lot of presumptions in that report that need to be confirmed before I'll take it seriously tbh. Despite the fact Volkswagon are calling the shots in that operation, I can't see Audi moving on from WEC as easily and free willingly as is stated in that report. Not with the amount of success they've achieved in it. 

[MBKF1]

VetteIfan said:

PeteTheDuck said:

I'd really like this to happen as I've always loved Audi's (probably through Dad!), and if they make their own engines too, which I guess they probably will, then we'd have five engine manufacturers on the grid which is fantastic. I think it's really helped this year that Mercedes have won the championship. It shows that a car manufacturer can come into F1 and win, so that would be great to get some more manufacturers in.

The report says they might buy an existing team and work with what they have? Toro Rosso actually seems like quite a logical choice. Red Bull seem to have very close links to Audi through the DTM, and I guess Red Bull could still use Audi as a training ground for their younger drivers? 

I swear you mention your Dad's love for Audi every time they are mentioned haha. Not a criticism, just an observation :P If they did happen to join though you'd have a bit of a conflict of interest as you're favourite driver will be driving for what would be Audi's arch rival team. 

But anyway, enough if's and but's for one day. There's a lot of presumptions in that report that need to be confirmed before I'll take it seriously tbh. Despite the fact Volkswagon are calling the shots in that operation, I can't see Audi moving on from WEC as easily and free willingly as is stated in that report. Not with the amount of success they've achieved in it. 

On reflection I think I do always mention him, haha :p But that's a real good point you've made there actually, but drivers change so often in F1 who knows where everyone will be come 2016/2017.

I get what you mean about finding it hard to see Audi moving on from WEC. As you say, they've dominated the sport for the last 13 years or so, and it would seem a bit silly to pull out whilst still having this success.

[Jiggy]

Isn't Sauber also in trouble? They might be next.

[MBKF1]

Jiggy said:

Isn't Sauber also in trouble? They might be next.

YeaH they are. It's odd how they've tested a lot of drivers this year really, and the last two they tested, Fong and Nissany, I've never ever heard of before and they are surely there just because they have the dosh. Sauber look like a sinking ship too.

[Jiggy]

Nissany? Chanoch Nissany? He's like 50? Once did a free practice session for Minardi back in 2004 and he was like 10 seconds down.
On freaking Zsolt Baumgartner.

[couger1981]

Marussia to miss the US GP

http://twitter.com/SkySportsNewsHQ/status/525934916442529792

[f1since08]

Doesn't Bernie have to supply the organisers of each GP with at least 20 cars?

[Tommig1995]

F1 is just getting really sad, and silly. Sauber will be bust by the start of next season as well, probably. 

It's cost cap or death surely?

[f1since08]

It's time for CVC to sell up.

I have nothing against a company wanting to make money from its business - that is normal - but CVC are taking far too much money out of the sport (I'm sure I read ages ago that CVC take 70% of the revenue F1 makes - far too much). 

If the sport is to survive, either costs need to be brought down or the prize money needs to be seriously increased. If Bernie kept his stake and CVC dropped their takings, that'd free up millions (if not billions) to give to the teams.

Of  course Bernie is to blame partially as well. He takes too much himself (what the hell is up with his personal trust man, ha way!) and is determined that his way is right, despite the fans normally disagreeing with him (double points, 10 teams, Tilke tracks and so on).

His way of working out how the prize money is given out is wrong too. I think it should work like the EPL, all teams get a set amount and gain extra cash for improving. I came up with my own system a while ago whereby each team gets a standard payout of £54.6 million per year and earns and loses money on top of that depending on how they finish in the WCC. Teams also get £10 million for each decade they've spent in the sport. It's much fairer!

/rant

[onetwothree]

I find your crusade against capitalism cute. Keep fighting munch.

The thought of Bernie giving up his 'entitlements' has a snowflake's chance in hell.

[VetteIfan]

fIsince08 said:

It's time for CVC to sell up.

I have nothing against a company wanting to make money from its business - that is normal - but CVC are taking far too much money out of the sport (I'm sure I read ages ago that CVC take 70% of the revenue F1 makes - far too much). 

If the sport is to survive, either costs need to be brought down or the prize money needs to be seriously increased. If Bernie kept his stake and CVC dropped their takings, that'd free up millions (if not billions) to give to the teams.

Of  course Bernie is to blame partially as well. He takes too much himself (what the hell is up with his personal trust man, ha way!) and is determined that his way is right, despite the fans normally disagreeing with him (double points, 10 teams, Tilke tracks and so on).

His way of working out how the prize money is given out is wrong too. I think it should work like the EPL, all teams get a set amount and gain extra cash for improving. I came up with my own system a while ago whereby each team gets a standard payout of £54.6 million per year and earns and loses money on top of that depending on how they finish in the WCC. Teams also get £10 million for each decade they've spent in the sport. It's much fairer!

/rant

You're way off the mark with some of the figures here. CVC definitely don't take 70% of F1's profits. The figure that the teams get is somewhere in the 47-48% region, so by the process of simple math you can work out that figure for CVC is exaggerated. Also, F1 as a business currently makes a yearly revenue of around $1.5 billion, so CVC lowering their takings wouldn't save "billions". 

While your figures are off target though, I agree with what you're saying that many of the cost issues could be overcome with better distribution of profits. There's enough money, just not in the right places. 

Forget a cost cap though. Cost caps are too debatable and complicated to enforce, and while the strategy group is in effect it will never ever go through. Top teams are in it for themselves and while they run that little group with the FIA and FOM they're never willingly going to give up their financial advantage to the smaller teams. 

[buttonfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5WjNPSuh_M

[RevolvingPrawn]

[f1since08]

The monocular shark sounds OK, it'll be interesting to hear it with the energy recovery systems attached.

Well, that's the end of that!
https://twitter.com/Audi__Sport/status/526103398727565312

[afrodude41]

fIsince08 said:

The monocular shark sounds OK, it'll be interesting to hear it with the energy recovery systems attached.

Well, that's the end of that!
https://twitter.com/Audi__Sport/status/526103398727565312

Nek Minnit

[sjsharp2010]

looks like we're down to an 18 car grid in Austin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29770496

[GoldenColt]

So what'll happen to qualifying?

[afrodude41]

Sad news, especially on the back of Bianchi's accident

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNewsHQ/status/526682053212135424

https://twitter.com/CroftyF1/status/526682220061544448

[couger1981]

GoldenColt said:

So what'll happen to qualifying?

I guess only one will be knocked out in Q1?

[buttonfan]

couger1981 said:

GoldenColt said:

So what'll happen to qualifying?

I guess only one will be knocked out in Q1?

4 cars in Q1 and 4 in Q2. The thing is, Vettel (and there are rumors about Alonso as well) will not run in quali due to the pit lane penalty... 

[Tommig1995]

9 years after our last USA GP disaster... 6 cars anyone?

[onetwothree]

I remember that race. I'm still calling conspiracy on that one. Narrain Karthikeyan was supposed to get that podium.

[sjsharp2010]

there is hope for Marrussia yet  though given there are interested parties looking at the possibility of buying the team according to Sky Sports News. Also assuming they hang onto 9th spot they get a bit of a payout too. Unfortunately we can't say the same for Caterham yet

[GoldenColt]

Tommig1995 said:

9 years after our last USA GP disaster... 6 cars anyone?

Isn't it ironic that this whole ultra-capitalistic approach in F1 which leads to teams like Marussia and Caterham dying sooner rather than later is affecting the US-GP first?

[JensonBottom]

And that it has happened after the Russian GP.

[sjsharp2010]

mike96 said:

couger1981 said:

GoldenColt said:

So what'll happen to qualifying?

I guess only one will be knocked out in Q1?

4 cars in Q1 and 4 in Q2. The thing is, Vettel (and there are rumors about Alonso as well) will not run in quali due to the pit lane penalty... 

yeah that's what Sky Sports said as well would be likely

[MBKF1]

It's such a shame this has happened, now to all three of the newer teams! 18 cars isn't healthy and I can see another team, most likely Sauber, folding quite soon. What a shame, don't know what to say to be honest. It's odd how both Marussia and Caterham have gone into administration within three days of each other though.

[sjsharp2010]

PeteTheDuck said:

It's such a shame this has happened, now to all three of the newer teams! 18 cars isn't healthy and I can see another team, most likely Sauber, folding quite soon. What a shame, don't know what to say to be honest. It's odd how both Marussia and Caterham have gone into administration within three days of each other though.

yeah the only good news is that Marrussia might still be saved as there are some people interested in buying that team according to Sky Sports unfortunately we can't say the same for Caterham right now.

[SamuelTrautman]

formula 1 should adapt the rules and aim the championship at car manufacturers instead of these poorly funded privateer teams who always go bust and leave or morph into another team that folds 2-3 seasons later. good to see Honda coming back next year and hopefully other companies  like bmw, audi, vw, Toyota, ford, Vauxhall, Nissan etc could be attracted to the sport with these hybrid cars.

[f1since08]

This is such a shame! More proof that F1 needs less money going to Bernie.

[MBKF1]

@SamuelTrautman I actually kind of agree with you. I hope we have more manufacturer teams entering the sport in the next few years. As Mercedes have dominated this year it will hopefully prove that a car manufacturer can win in F1.

it's a shame it didn't work out for Toyota, Honda or BMW, but at least Honda are having another crack with McLaren, and if Audi got involved then that would be great.

But at the same time, the small privateer teams have always been a part of F1 and it would be a shame not to have them.

[buttonfan]

There are rumors saying that Force India will not race as well if they don't pay Mercedes.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/das-problem-mit-dem-dritten-auto-mercedes-ist-nur-nachruecker-8841387.html

[sjsharp2010]

I agree but Williams have xone OK for themselves over the year so it's been shown it can be done the smaller budget teams will just have to be cleverer in how they us their money if they're to survive

[Tommig1995]

mike96 said:

There are rumors saying that Force India will not race as well if they don't pay Mercedes.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/das-problem-mit-dem-dritten-auto-mercedes-ist-nur-nachruecker-8841387.html

Formula 1 is dying...

[f1since08]

I can understand that the new engines needed to be made (the V8s didn't have direct injection ffs) but something should've been done about the cost of them.

[GoldenColt]

The main problem aren't the new engines but the way the money which comes in through TV-righs  is being distributed. The richest teams get the most money, the teams at the back end don't get enough to even survive.
With the current system it's like sitting in a train which is heading towards abysm and instead of pulling the safety brake (in other words: make sure the money is being distributed in a way that keeps smaller teams alive) we're discussing how to change the color of the seats (in other words: introduce 3 car teams).
A third car won't solve the main problem, it'll only create a fake fullness of the grid. As soon as world famous brands find themselves in last place, they'll pull out of F1. We've seen that in the past with Honda for example. That's why those typical backmarker-teams are important. Apart from the fact that they add something in the sense of David vs Goliath and it's amazing to see them succeed every once in a while in beating more established teams. And sometimes they add magical moments which we keep talking about for a long time.

[f1since08]

GoldenColt said:

The main problem aren't the new engines but the way the money which comes in through TV-righs  is being distributed. The richest teams get the most money, the teams at the back end don't get enough to even survive.
With the current system it's like sitting in a train which is heading towards abysm and instead of pulling the safety brake (in other words: make sure the money is being distributed in a way that keeps smaller teams alive) we're discussing how to change the color of the seats (in other words: introduce 3 car teams).
A third car won't solve the main problem, it'll only create a fake fullness of the grid. As soon as world famous brands find themselves in last place, they'll pull out of F1. We've seen that in the past with Honda for example. That's why those typical backmarker-teams are important. Apart from the fact that they add something in the sense of David vs Goliath and it's amazing to see them succeed every once in a while in beating more established teams. And sometimes they add magical moments which we keep talking about for a long time.

Exactly! Bernie needs to read this thread and view my TV money distribution figures :p 

[VetteIfan]

It's all fine and well saying make the money distribution more fair (that is the clear and obvious solution) but as I said at the bottom of page 78, while the strategy group exists, money distribution will never be fair. And considering the strategy group has an arrangement to be in place till 2020 don't hold your breath. Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes and Mclaren aren't going to give up their financial advantage while they're deciding the rules. From what I read Williams and Lotus are nothing more than participants - while they are involved in the group, they really don't get much say in anything. 

[MBKF1]

I love Sniffpetrol :D

http://sniffpetrol.com/2014/10/27/f1-teams-to-miss-next-race/#.VE6xDJYgHCR

[couger1981]

SamuelTrautman said:

formula 1 should adapt the rules and aim the championship at car manufacturers instead of these poorly funded privateer teams who always go bust and leave or morph into another team that folds 2-3 seasons later. good to see Honda coming back next year and hopefully other companies  like bmw, audi, vw, Toyota, ford, Vauxhall, Nissan etc could be attracted to the sport with these hybrid cars.

Honda is only supplying engines to McLaren, the only new team coming to F1 is Haas. (At the moment)

[onetwothree]

I'd argue that for the sake of argumentative balance, it's fundamentally a good thing for smaller teams to fold. Less cars, through Darwinian principles obviously, would leave a much higher standard of cars on the grid. No more of these four-second slow cars who end up being lapped every race. Less pay drivers would mean that drivers are selected based on the quality of their driving, rather than how much money they can bring to the team. An exciting race on track could potentially open up the sport and competitors to a wealth of commercial opportunities too. After all, doesn't Formula One market itself as the pinnacle of motorsport?

Of course, the major drawback of this is that an over-commercialised sport could potentially become polarising to the core fan base as well as inaccessible to any new teams that are not backed by a major car firm or wealthy investor.

[f1since08]

onetwothree said:

I'd argue that for the sake of argumentative balance, it's fundamentally a good thing for smaller teams to fold. Less cars, through Darwinian principles obviously, would leave a much higher standard of cars on the grid. No more of these four-second slow cars who end up being lapped every race. Less pay drivers would mean that drivers are selected based on the quality of their driving, rather than how much money they can bring to the team. An exciting race on track could potentially open up the sport and competitors to a wealth of commercial opportunities too. After all, doesn't Formula One market itself as the pinnacle of motorsport?

Of course, the major drawback of this is that an over-commercialised sport could potentially become polarising to the core fan base as well as inaccessible to any new teams that are not backed by a major car firm or wealthy investor.

If the money was evenly split, teams wouldn't need to use pay drivers.

I've found out Marussia have £30 million worth of debt. If they stay in 9th place in the WCC, they get £35 million in prize money. This therefore means that a new buyer could potentially sort the debt out easily...

[onetwothree]

The money will never be evenly split. F1 is second only to La Liga in terms of distribution of commercial revenue.

[MBKF1]

Another stunning piece of journalism by sniffpetrol.com

http://sniffpetrol.com/2014/10/28/f1-retro-grid-filling-plan/#.VE-P25YgHCR

'With Caterham and Marussia out of this weekend’s US Grand Prix, Formula 1 bosses have come up with a radical plan to fill the vacant grid spots using sh*t teams from the past.'

[couger1981]

PeteTheDuck said:

Another stunning piece of journalism by sniffpetrol.com

http://sniffpetrol.com/2014/10/28/f1-retro-grid-filling-plan/#.VE-P25YgHCR

'With Caterham and Marussia out of this weekend’s US Grand Prix, Formula 1 bosses have come up with a radical plan to fill the vacant grid spots using sh*t teams from the past.'

If Super Aguri come back for the a couple of races then i'm all for it haha ;)

[Tommig1995]

So I've been plugging a few numbers based on a blog from Joe Saward, theses are the ESTIMATED values of prize money for each, 2013 & 2014.

All values in dollars

RBR:          2013: 200m, 2014: 167m
Merc:         2013: 105m, 2014: 154m
Ferrari:       2013: 185m, 2014: 185m
Lotus:         2013: 85m, 2014: 60m
McLaren     2013: 110m, 2014: 98m
Force India: 2013: 70m, 2014: 70m
Sauber:       2013: 65m, 2014: 50m
STR:          2013: 60m, 2014: 65m
Williams     2013: 55m, 2014: 95m
Marussia:   2013: 50m, 2014: 55m
Caterham:   2013: 10m, 2014: 10m

Total Prize Money/year: $1bn

A full breakdown of where all the money comes from will be posted later.

Appalling isn't it...

[GoldenColt]

[buttonfan]

Fine fine, you got that LOL

:p

[SamuelTrautman]

Tommig1995 said:

So I've been plugging a few numbers based on a blog from Joe Saward, theses are the ESTIMATED values of prize money for each, 2013 & 2014.

All values in dollars

RBR:          2013: 200m, 2014: 167m
Merc:         2013: 105m, 2014: 154m
Ferrari:       2013: 185m, 2014: 185m
Lotus:         2013: 85m, 2014: 60m
McLaren     2013: 110m, 2014: 98m
Force India: 2013: 70m, 2014: 70m
Sauber:       2013: 65m, 2014: 50m
STR:          2013: 60m, 2014: 65m
Williams     2013: 55m, 2014: 95m
Marussia:   2013: 50m, 2014: 55m
Caterham:   2013: 10m, 2014: 10m

Total Prize Money/year: $1bn

A full breakdown of where all the money comes from will be posted later.

Appalling isn't it...

from what I can see it seems fair, if you finish the championship higher up you get more money, just like in other sports. with the exception of Ferrari who have always got a little bit more as they are the only team still in the championship since the beginning and are the best supported team in f1, bringing much needed revenue to the sport themselves

[f1since08]

Tommig1995 said:

So I've been plugging a few numbers based on a blog from Joe Saward, theses are the ESTIMATED values of prize money for each, 2013 & 2014.

All values in pounds

RBR:          2013: 123.8m, 2014: 103.4m
Merc:         2013: 65m, 2014: 95.3m
Ferrari:       2013: 114.5m, 2014: 114.5m
Lotus:         2013: 52.6m, 2014: 37.1m
McLaren     2013: 68.1m, 2014: 60.7m
Force India: 2013: 43.3m, 2014: 43.3m
Sauber:       2013: 40.2m, 2014: 31m
STR:          2013: 37.1m, 2014: 40.2m
Williams     2013: 34m, 2014: 58.8m
Marussia:   2013: 31m, 2014: 34m
Caterham:   2013: 6.2m, 2014: 6.2m

Total Prize Money/year: £624.5 million

A full breakdown of where all the money comes from will be posted later.

Appalling isn't it...

I've changed your figures into pounds for reference.

Now, a while ago you might remember that I came up with my own figure based on F1's 1.5 billion turn over. Below are the figures I came up with and the sums that each team would receive.

Rules (based on £1.5 billion per year income)

£600,000,000 prize pot

£600,000,000 split between 11 teams is £54545454 standard amount per team per year (for an 11 team championship)

WCC is a guaranteed £25,000,000 pay out, WDC a £10,000,000 pay out to the team and £5,000,000 to the driver.

Retaining the title adds £7,000,000 to both constructor received figures for each year, up to 3 bonuses (i.e. a maximum of £21,000,000 added to both figures before the amount is frozen)

A team finishing first and second in the WDC receives a £5,000,000 pay out.

Gaining 1 place in the constructor championship earns £3,000,000 bonus to the default pay out

Gaining 2 earns a £5,000,000 bonus

3 earns a £6,500,000 bonus

4 a £8,000,000 bonus

5 a £10,000,000 bonus

Plus £1,000,000 for each additional place.

Dropping places costs the team the same amount.

 

A team involved in the sport for a long time receives an additional £10,000,000 per decade they have been in the sport (without withdrawing). This is known as a dedication reward.

 

£150,000,000 of the remaining money will be given to the F1 Strategy Group (which would contain every team) to spread between the teams for them to spend on road car development.

The remaining cash is used to pay FOM’s bills, to allow CVC to make a profit and any more remaining cash goes into a fund that helps keep race tracks on the calendar until their contracts (e.g. Nurburgring) as well as a chosen selection of charities.

Now, for last year the teams would have got:

RBR: 131.5 m
Merc: 61m
Ferrari: 111.5m
Lotus: 54.5m
McLaren: 89.5m
SFI: 57.5m
Sauber: 71.5m
STR: 57.5m
Williams: 81.5m
Marussia: 57.5m
Caterham: 51.5m

Which is £825.5 million total

And this year, provided the WCC stays as it is:
Merc: 97.5m
RBR: 61.5m
Williams: 95.5m
Ferrari: 111.5m
McLaren: 94.5m
SFI: 54.5m
STR: 57.5m
Lotus: 46.5m
Marussia: 57.5m
Sauber: 68m
Caterham: 54.5m

Total payout is £794.5 million.

Whilst some of the big teams get a lot more, take into account that Sauber get more than Red Bull and Marussia and Caterham aren't all that far behind them. It does seem a lot fairer!