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f1since08
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fIsince08 said:

Vettel has 4 times as many championships than Ricciardo, he should be humiliating him in the races where they have both had trouble free times, but he hasn't.


And before anyone gets sarcastic, I know 4 X 0 is technically 0.

So you mean Vettel technically has infinitely more championships than Ricciardo, and should thus be infinitely better :P

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vettel will look at it the way Schumacher looked at it, it only matters what you do against your team mate if you're fighting for a championship, if you're not your basically fighting over who is the quickest loser..which is why I have always looked at it more of a team sport, the real fight is between the teams, drivers are ten a penny, plenty young guns to replace any driver out there. if vettel and ricciardo have a championship winning car we will then see who is best, its pointless arguing about trivial things like this in a forum when realistically its one persons opinion against anothers, the end of season table never normally lies, whoever is top at the end has done the better job on that given year in that particular car, but come on don't tell me you aint followed f1 long enough to realise there are a whole load of different scenarios that can play out each season, the car might suit 1 driver 1 year and the other driver the next year, 1 might have more dnf's or crashes but that's just racing. some could say kimi was deserving champion in 2005 but Alonso's car was more reliable and that's all part of the game, so many factors come into it which is why its hard to judge these drivers against each other, everyone belittled massa at Ferrari as Alonso was so dominant yet he is doing a great job at Williams and even Alonso said he was his fastest teammate, even ahead of Hamilton. F1 is such a complicated sport is frustrates at times.  only when drivers retire you can look back on there career and judge how they performed over there career rather than one particular season, just sit back and enjoy it

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vettel will look at it the way Schumacher looked at it, it only matters what you do against your team mate if you're fighting for a championship, if you're not your basically fighting over who is the quickest loser..which is why I have always looked at it more of a team sport, the real fight is between the teams, drivers are ten a penny, plenty young guns to replace any driver out there. if vettel and ricciardo have a championship winning car we will then see who is best, its pointless arguing about trivial things like this in a forum when realistically its one persons opinion against anothers, the end of season table never normally lies, whoever is top at the end has done the better job on that given year in that particular car, but come on don't tell me you aint followed f1 long enough to realise there are a whole load of different scenarios that can play out each season, the car might suit 1 driver 1 year and the other driver the next year, 1 might have more dnf's or crashes but that's just racing. some could say kimi was deserving champion in 2005 but Alonso's car was more reliable and that's all part of the game, so many factors come into it which is why its hard to judge these drivers against each other, everyone belittled massa at Ferrari as Alonso was so dominant yet he is doing a great job at Williams and even Alonso said he was his fastest teammate, even ahead of Hamilton. F1 is such a complicated sport is frustrates at times.  only when drivers retire you can look back on there career and judge how they performed over there career rather than one particular season, just sit back and enjoy it

Paragraphs man :p 

I find some of what you said that quite interesting - you said Raikkonen was probably the deserving 2005 champ (I wouldn't know) and this is part of the problem with Vettel - he's won two championships that in my opinion shouldn't have been his (2010 should have been Webber's and could have been Alonso's if Ferrari didn't cock up - 2012 should have been either Hamilton's or Alonso's.) This is why a lot of us think that Vettel is over rated.

2010 retirements probably worked in his favour
2011 he had the best car
2012 he probably had the best car towards the end of the season as the McLaren was so unreliabl
2013 best car, helped by the mid season tyre changes.

Now I'm not saying that other drivers haven't had the best car - Button springs to mind - but the majority have done notable things in other seasons with bad cars - Alonso in 2012, Hamilton in 2009, Raikkonen in 2012. Excluding the fluke Toro Rosso win, Vettel hasn't really had a bad season up until now and look what's happening.

But everyone has bad points - Hamilton in 2011, Button every year bar 2009/2010 and Raikkonen this season. I'll give Vettel another year but let's wait and see.

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I didn't include that side note to go in to a fully blown discussion about how good Vettel is. It think literally everyone knows everyone's individual standpoint on that we've gone over it so many times. 

Besides, the fact Vettel's a 4x world champion means nothing in his raw comparison with Ricciardo. Under that logic Alonso should've destroyed his rookie teammate in 2007. The reason he didn't was because Hamilton was the real deal, just like Ricciardo is now. The past means nothing when comparing two drivers in the same car at a specific time. 

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The question remains: How good is Ricciardo really?

Do we know he's "the real deal", just because he's beating Vettel? All we know is that Daniel struggled against Vergne, who - I'm pretty sure about that - won't be in F1 anymore from next season on. 

So it could be a case of Vettel having a really poor season performance-wise (even when counting out the DNF's and points lost due to bad luck). Why would he suddenly drop so much? New cars? Then it's a sign of him being weak in adapting to a new formula. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, Hülkenberg and so on all don't seem to have lost their pace because of the rule changes.

Is it because of the trickier cars due to the ban of the EBD, beam wing and all these devices to increase rear downforce to a level where you can just floor it out of slow corner? Then it's a sign of his incredible pace being limited to a certain characteristic which is not likely to come back anytime soon. 

Once again, drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg and Hülkenberg (just to name a few) don't seem to struggle with that at all and I remember McLaren having a pretty advanced EBD at the end of 2011 aswell.

No matter how you look at it, this season has been a desaster so far for Vettel. It doesn't take a genius to work out that his reputation has taken a beating and all those who doubted the legitimacy of his massive success the last couple of years are now being confirmed in their thoughts. 

Furthermore, saying that Vettel doesn't care about beating his teammate once he's out of the running for the WDC is nonsense imo. For every driver out there, beating his own teammate is the #1 priority, even more so for the reigning 4x WDC who has re-written the history-books in the last 4 seasons. Taking Schumacher as an example for this theory is nonsense aswell, because, well, Michael never got beaten by a teammate in his first career. Of course, 91, 97 and 99 don't count because he either didn't participate in as many races as his teammate, or he was disqualified from the CS-standings or he broke his leg and had to miss out on 6 races and gifted a certain win to his teammate so he could have a chance to win the WDC. 

I'd go as far as to say that Vettel will be more gutted about losing to Ricciardo at the end of the season (if he does lose out) than losing out on winning the WDC in 2009.

Meanwhile, I'm still looking for the perfect Hamilton-avatar for Seb's profile, just in case the unthinkable actually happens.

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Damnit. Such a difficult name to remember. 

Kvyat is fast, he has impressed me so far. I'm not a friend of this "new xyz"-thing, so I don't know if he is the new Hamilton. You'd have to put him into a WDC-winning car against a multiple WDC to see if he can cope with the sort of pressure at the top, where the air is always thinner.

Vergne to Lotus is a possibility, haven't thought about that. I like your idea!


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Vettel really is having a rubbish season when you consider that he has had the same amount of pole positions and race wins as I have.

But I really can't wait for the next 5 years of Formula 1. I know I said it in another thread somewhere previously, but I honestly think that we are now starting to see the true next generation of great F1 drivers. 

At the moment you would have to say it is probably Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button

In the next five years I can easily see Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez, Magnussen, Kvyat and maybe Bianchi joining them and fighting at the top end for race wins and championships.

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To be fair Ricciardo has been brilliant in wheel to wheel fighting this season, and the moves he was making in the last race especially with Alonso was some of the best, and fairest racing I've seen in F1 for a long time. Bahrain was good, but it was refreshing to see them fighting and no-one whinging like a little girl. Although Ricciardo's Australian so he doesn't stand for any bullshizzle tbf. 

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Vettel really is having a rubbish season when you consider that he has had the same amount of pole positions and race wins as I have.

But I really can't wait for the next 5 years of Formula 1. I know I said it in another thread somewhere previously, but I honestly think that we are now starting to see the true next generation of great F1 drivers. 

At the moment you would have to say it is probably Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button

In the next five years I can easily see Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez, Magnussen, Kvyat and maybe Bianchi joining them and fighting at the top end for race wins and championships.

I agree but I have one problem with the drivers you've mentioned as the future stars of F1: They have zero personality and are boring as hell. Ok, Ricciardo somehow doesn't fit into this category completely, although I haven't noticed anything special with him personality-wise (apart from that smile and the impression he has 80teeth every time he does it).

Bottas - good driver (although hyped up imo) but boring as hell

Hülkenberg - see above

Perez - see above

Magnussen - see above

Kvyat - see above

Bianchi - see above

I think we will all miss the likes of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel. Those drivers are so incredibly loved and disliked at the same time, creating some excitement off the track, sometimes making us angry, sometimes making us laugh, but certainly making the sport more interesting. Alonso with his backstabbing politics, Hamilton with his Hollywood-glamour, Vettel with his .... well it's Vettel you know. There's always something to talk about and I just can't see the guys you've mentioned fill in their shoes. Neither on track but most certainly not off track.

The new generation of drivers is too politically correct. They give answers which don't hurt anyone with a smile which won't hurt anyone. Maybe they will grow out of it as they get older and more self-confident, but for now, I'm really glad we have the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel on the grid.

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fIsince08 said:
@GoldenColt‌ I always thought Hulkenberg had a really nice personality... Jolly, always chats, never miserable after bad results and has a big cheesy grin when he does well :p 

That's exactly what I mean.

Nice, never miserable, grinning --> boooooooring.

I want that evil Alonso-smile after he or his team screwed up his teammate. I want someone like Hamilton to say how fricking ridiculous the other drivers are. I want someone like Kimi not giving a damn about anything. I want someone like Vettel calling other drivers cucumber.
I want to be entertained! ;)

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Colt's right. The vast majority of young F1 drivers are massively robotic. I appreciate drivers who have that good attitude like Hulkenburg, but a grid full of that will just desensitise everyone to it. The grid, like the entire world really, needs binary opposites. There is no light without dark, no day without night and no bad without good. A grid full of Hulkenburg's, while they'd be admirable people, would put me in a coma. It needs people with stinky attitudes like Hamilton and Vettel to fully appreciate the other drivers. How often do we talk about the rubbish that those two come out with? What is there to talk about if everyone just says "meh disappointed will do better next time" every time they mess up? If it weren't for them F1 would be a much duller place.

It's strange, I never really thought about it until Colt brought it up. but even though I give drivers like Hamilton and Vettel a lot of crap, I can appreciate those drivers a little bit more now.

Asshole.

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@f1since08 all of what you say is valid about vettel, but that's all part of the game. many times in the past the best driver does not win the championship its not a new thing. Red Bull obviously deserved all 4 titles as the developed the best car and its as simple as that, the fact vettel had better luck or some would say more support is irrelevant to the fact that he won 4 titles, if Alonso or Hamilton or kimi or webber won any of those titles they would have deserved it equally. the fact of the matter is vettel performed better than his team mate over the duration of 4 seasons and even webber himself said he couldn't touch him, especially in qualifying so its only logical that since red bull had the best car then it was fair one of the red bull drivers won the championships.


But onto this year there will be many reasons why Ricciardo is doing a better job than Vettel, the fact that Ric got to do a full pre season test schedule helped him, the fact that this is the best car he has driven will help, I know some of you will laugh but vettel became a dad during the winter and don't tell me his every thought has been f1, f1 f1 like the last 4 years. sure im not making any excuses he has to perform as its his job and im really liking what ricciardo is doing I see him for sure as a future champion. but I can also see vettel winning more so lets hope its no holds barred for the next few seasons.


ps what will happen if vettel beats ricciardo in the season long battle? will it prove he is the best? no, will it prove he is better than ricciardo? no,,,the only time you will know is when they have both retired :)

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fIsince08 said:
Change of topic, but God help us it's Softs and Mediums for Spa!!!!

Spa's one of those unfortunate circuits that falls between the tyre compounds. In 2012 on mediums and hards the one stop was the best strategy, and last year it was possible. 2011 when we had the softs and mediums it was a 3 pit stop race, 2 if you were brave. So the way I see it I'd rather the tyre choice be on the more aggressive side. 

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fIsince08 said:

vettel will look at it the way Schumacher looked at it, it only matters what you do against your team mate if you're fighting for a championship, if you're not your basically fighting over who is the quickest loser..which is why I have always looked at it more of a team sport, the real fight is between the teams, drivers are ten a penny, plenty young guns to replace any driver out there. if vettel and ricciardo have a championship winning car we will then see who is best, its pointless arguing about trivial things like this in a forum when realistically its one persons opinion against anothers, the end of season table never normally lies, whoever is top at the end has done the better job on that given year in that particular car, but come on don't tell me you aint followed f1 long enough to realise there are a whole load of different scenarios that can play out each season, the car might suit 1 driver 1 year and the other driver the next year, 1 might have more dnf's or crashes but that's just racing. some could say kimi was deserving champion in 2005 but Alonso's car was more reliable and that's all part of the game, so many factors come into it which is why its hard to judge these drivers against each other, everyone belittled massa at Ferrari as Alonso was so dominant yet he is doing a great job at Williams and even Alonso said he was his fastest teammate, even ahead of Hamilton. F1 is such a complicated sport is frustrates at times.  only when drivers retire you can look back on there career and judge how they performed over there career rather than one particular season, just sit back and enjoy it

Paragraphs man :p 

I find some of what you said that quite interesting - you said Raikkonen was probably the deserving 2005 champ (I wouldn't know) and this is part of the problem with Vettel - he's won two championships that in my opinion shouldn't have been his (2010 should have been Webber's and could have been Alonso's if Ferrari didn't cock up - 2012 should have been either Hamilton's or Alonso's.) This is why a lot of us think that Vettel is over rated.

2010 retirements probably worked in his favour
2011 he had the best car
2012 he probably had the best car towards the end of the season as the McLaren was so unreliabl
2013 best car, helped by the mid season tyre changes.

Now I'm not saying that other drivers haven't had the best car - Button springs to mind - but the majority have done notable things in other seasons with bad cars - Alonso in 2012, Hamilton in 2009, Raikkonen in 2012. Excluding the fluke Toro Rosso win, Vettel hasn't really had a bad season up until now and look what's happening.

But everyone has bad points - Hamilton in 2011, Button every year bar 2009/2010 and Raikkonen this season. I'll give Vettel another year but let's wait and see.

Whatever you are taking, I want some.

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Vettel really is having a rubbish season when you consider that he has had the same amount of pole positions and race wins as I have.

But I really can't wait for the next 5 years of Formula 1. I know I said it in another thread somewhere previously, but I honestly think that we are now starting to see the true next generation of great F1 drivers. 

At the moment you would have to say it is probably Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button

In the next five years I can easily see Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez, Magnussen, Kvyat and maybe Bianchi joining them and fighting at the top end for race wins and championships.

It is funny how you put Vettel in with those people, yet he'd closer in age to Hulkenberg (26) than the youngest of the first lot (Rosberg or Lewis at 29). 

I think people forget how young Vettel is in comparison to the other top tier drivers on the grid right now (Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen) 

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After more than 100 races, age really shouldn't matter experience-wise.

No I know, I agree with you. I am just saying. people seem to forget that he is actually a fair bit younger than Alonso or Kimi. When people talk about the next generation of drivers, they say Hulkenberg or Ricciardo and yet they are only 2 years younger than Vettel.

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Heres what I say. 

Vettel deserved 2010 with all the retirements.

He deserved 2011, although I'd say Button possibly could have deserved it more in some regards as he came a clear second in a inferior car. 

Alonso deserved 2012. No one can possibly disagree with this. 

Vettel deserved 2013, besides being in a better car for half the season. 

The End. 

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