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Force Feedback Fix / Tweak for Thrustmaster, Logitech, Fanatec etc.....

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42 minutes ago, sbtm said:

Australian Rally Stage where you have a good amount of tarmac, don't know the name. But the steering gets so much heavier when you change from gravel to tarmac, at least for me. I did this stage in the Escort MkII

Funnily enough i have just completed the Australia rally and no im at Spain.

One thing i have noticed on tarmac is that the SAT forces feel significantly weaker, so you could drive in Australia on gravel and the SAT force feels reletively natural and then onto tarmac and it seems a lot less or almost off thus providing a very odd feeling.

Ive just got to Spain and done some testing and have found i need to increase my in game SAT setting to get a bit more feeling on tarmac...... Again, no idea if this is correct but it feels a bit more natural rather the the odd feeling before.

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4 minutes ago, Grumps82 said:

and then onto tarmac and it seems a lot less or almost off thus providing a very odd feeling.

maybe this has something to do with the off-road tyres as they're more prone to tyre flex. But I also cannot tell if SAT on loose surface and tarmac are naturally the same or if there are differences.

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It sort of feels like the game traverses from gravel to tarmac and it turns down SAT, like the physics or some hidden value changes mid rally while driving.

Again, i have no real idea so can only go by what i feel. Its definately odd though....

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It certainly would be good to get some clarity on some aspects.


I would be grateful if anyone in house can answer my questions in the first post if possible ?!

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Ok. I've been testing some more setting and specifically on Tarmac.

While using the settings from my guide above "ffb_force" in the XML file. 

 

You can improve the feeling on tarmac by manually increasing the Self Aligning Torque (SAT) until it 'feels right'.

The amount you increase it is dependent on a few variables but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm wondering if there is a bug / glitch somewhere, so when you drive on tarmac the SAT value decreases or something (in the code, not in the game menu).

 

 

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2 hours ago, Grumps82 said:

Ok. I've been testing some more setting and specifically on Tarmac.

While using the settings from my guide above "ffb_force" in the XML file. 

 

You can improve the feeling on tarmac by manually increasing the Self Aligning Torque (SAT) until it 'feels right'.

The amount you increase it is dependent on a few variables but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm wondering if there is a bug / glitch somewhere, so when you drive on tarmac the SAT value decreases or something (in the code, not in the game menu).

 

 

I had a quick go at tarmac without your fix and yes something is slightly off with the self aligning torque (and lack of feedback from suspension movement).  On tarmac your SAT or forces in general should be larger than on gravel, specifically due to the increased grip and lower tyre sidewalls.  I guess this is a little broken or reversed.

On default settings without a fix the SAT on Fanatec CSW 2.5 is too strong and yet bland, it's like you are just fighting it for no reason. 

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Yeah for sure.

See with a increased ffb_force number and increased SAT setting the tarmac feels really quite ok.

It's very odd, Australia is particularly weird transfering from Gravel to Tarmac, it feels so odd.

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Can we have some clarity on the current FFB situation please ?

Is there an issue / What have you found ?

How long until a patch ? A few days ? A week ?

These are all reasonable questions and I think by now it would be fair to offer some insight or information to everyone here.

 

I'm not having a go or whining, I think it's fair to the community.

 

 

Edited by Grumps82
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From their silence it's pretty apparent now that there's no bugs with it and the FFB we have is as intended. Not sure where it will go from here but I can't see it being improved anytime soon. Not sure how they didn't forsee this backlash coming, every sim type game I can think of has some type of surface detail, did they think people just weren't going to notice that it wasn't there? 

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6 minutes ago, Decks said:

From their silence it's pretty apparent now that there's no bugs with it and the FFB we have is as intended. Not sure where it will go from here but I can't see it being improved anytime soon. Not sure how they didn't forsee this backlash coming, every sim type game I can think of has some type of surface detail, did they think people just weren't going to notice that it wasn't there? 

Or the fact that they are working on it which they have already stated a few times?

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They haven't though, they've been very selective with their wording. "Looking into it" is what they've said. 

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I just wanted to say that using the starter Lancia with just basic FFB adjustments (and not the fix here) is actually feeling quite good/normal on gravel stages.    It seems those old cars have a bit more feedback than something from R5, or I am totally imagining things.  (Fanatec)

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On 2/25/2019 at 11:31 AM, sbtm said:

I agree with some of the things here.

But I also fear that people might demand the FFB they get from track-racing with wide slicks and super stiff suspension.

In fact in Rally it is very easy to steer on the loose surfaces, in opposite to track racing on tarmac. 

Also, the tyres of rally cars have bigger sidewalls which also allows them to compress and "swallow" a good amount of bumps and "noise" from gravel.

The soft suspension does also it's part in filtering out the road surface.

The tyres are rubber after all and not wood.

 

I don't have a "consumer wheel" anymore so I cannot speak for them, but with my Simucube DD-Wheel (Small Mige) I can defintely feel the different road surfaces. Weight transfer is fantastic imo, self aligning torque is how I expect it to be and the feeling of a big jump is great. And last but not least, the feeling of getting dragged into a rut if you're starting very much behind everyone else.

Key for me was to set the "wheel friction" to a minimum (have it on 3) and "tyre friction" on 0. They are like dampening the signal. So the only sliders I work with are "self aligning torque" and "suspension". In the Simucube Config Tool I just set 2% Inertia and 0.5% Friction and every filter to Off, also the Reconstruction Filter to Off. 

 

Of course the FFB system has some flaws and a general improvement of the effects is neccessary, but maybe some people have to re-think what FFB in an actual rally car means and would be like, before they go on a rant. Just don't compare it to racing on tarmac please.

I do not adhere to this philosophy for ffb in driving sims as there is a big difference between driving a real car & a pretend one sitting in your house. I believe you need more feedback in a 'sim' to make up for the fact that you lose a great deal of information that you would normally get through the car travelling on a real road. So i think a good sim should at least allow you to dial this in, you could always reduce settings to taste if prefered. 

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I didn't get round to trying that last night.

 

I will reset my XML file and try these settings later and report back.

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Look forward to what you think, surprised he has wheel and tyre frictions up at 30.

From what I have seen elsewhere through some guys testing Wheel friction just acts as damping currently and Tyre friction does diddly squat.

Soft Lock also messes things up for people.

Maybe if you got exact same wheel and wheel settings same as his, they may work ok.

 

Still don't know why Tyre Slip and Engine settings are greyed out, obviously no FFB for them as yet so why are they even in the UI.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, virgism said:

Howto setup FFB from Jon Armstrong (real life rally driver and Dirt consultant):
https://www.facebook.com/ThrustmasterOfficial/videos/404581700352298/

The problem is his settings don't mean anything because other than Self aligning torque and the suspension setting nothing else is working. They need to add surface feel. 

I refuse to believe this is how the ffb was intended to feel. The people complaining about it don't want their wheel to be harder to turn by adding stonger ffb. We want to feel the ruts, bumps, and changes in the surface texture. 

Right now you don't feel the wheel go light when the front tires leave the ground, or the effect of slamming down after going off a jump. Under and over steer are not felt either. At least not like it was in DR1. The only feeling right now is that there is some kind of force when turning. This might be fine if you're in a real car and you have g forces to help you with the other feelings you need. But as sim racers with our pretend race cars, we need those feelings in the wheel. Even if they arent 100% accurate to real life. They are there to simulate everything that would be happening in a real car. The wheel is the only thing we have to give us information about what the car is doing. 

So if I'm driving on a rut filled road then my wheel needs to reflect that. It wouldn't be smooth with just self aligning torque. 

So for the people saying that rally cars are really easy to turn and don't take a lot of force, more resistance is not the complaint here. The wheel can be very easy to turn while still providing the other forces we are missing to give us the most imersive experience.

Also the surface degradation is an absolute fail if we can't feel the difference. Yay the road looks more beat up but it feels the same everywhere!

@ChristinaMc

Edited by Rigle
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6 minutes ago, DelDredd said:

Still don't know why Tyre Slip and Engine settings are greyed out, obviously no FFB for them as yet so why are they even in the UI.

this is an unanswered question

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The only thing that makes sense to me is that the FFB wasn't finished in time for release, and they couldn't afford to delay the game until after the end of the financial year.

 

Either that or they can't get surface detail running on the new track deformation stuff and were just hoping no-one would notice. 

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5 minutes ago, Decks said:

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the FFB wasn't finished in time for release, and they couldn't afford to delay the game until after the end of the financial year.

 

Either that or they can't get surface detail running on the new track deformation stuff and were just hoping no-one would notice. 

If the last part is true then they shouldn't be experimenting with things we don't care about anyways. 

All the community asked for was a sim with realistic physics and FFB.

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Right. Bear with me.

I have some interesting results to share with you all...................................................

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Test :

Track : Argentina - Huillaprima - Heavy Gravel

Conditions : Dry

Cars Tested : VW Golf, Ford Escort, Ford Sierra, Lancia Delta S4 & Polo GTi R5.


Test Conducted : To test the "Suspension" value setting on a Thrustmaster T300GTE

Method :    To test every car while heavy accelerating Braking

Method 2 : To test every car around corners and then letting go of the wheel.


Conclusion :

Every car listed above in both methods above veered to the left. No matter what the angle of camber, collisions position or starting angle of the steering wheel. I thought it may of been the camber of the road. So i turned the car around and did the same thing, it veered to the left !!!!!! This may be the reason some users have reported always steering to the left ?!?!

*** is going on ??











 

Edited by Grumps82
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Xbox One X//TM TX Wheel user.

The FFB is DR 2.0 is a complete fail thus far.

Put simply - had they just ported over existing code from DR1 that would have been completely satisfactory, (though curious in light of surface degradation which to others points above - should ADD to the overall experience of road noise/feel).

The game feels borderline unplayable for me as the road feel and overall FFB model severely compromise my ability to ‘attack’ stages as I did in DR1.

Just for $hits and giggles I played DR1 last night immediately following a 2 hour session with DR2, and it was like a breath of fresh air. Reacting to road conditions, catching slides and managing throttle input based on haptic feedback is what Rally Racing is all about. Short of this, we may as well be playing a road racing game. 

DR2 will remain in the service area for ‘repairs and maintenance’ until this gets patched. DR1 will continue to get my seat time until further notice!

Shame really, as I was SUPER excited for DR2. To say I am left wanting would be a gross understatement. 

Love Codies, always have - and I have faith they’ll get this figured...hopefully sooner rather than later. As it stands this game has all the makings of a great title that has oddly missed the mark on what previously defined it’s heritage based on the greatest culmination of off road driving physics the gaming industry has ever seen.

Let’s hope rev 2 doesn’t spoil its legacy.

 

Edited by Buckwilder
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51 minutes ago, Grumps82 said:

Track : Argentina - Huillaprima - Heavy Gravel

Conditions : Dry

Cars Tested : VW Golf, Ford Escort, Ford Sierra, Lancia Delta S4 & Polo GTi R5.


Test Conducted : To use every car in 2 different scenarios on the same stretch of track on a Thrustmaster T300GTE


Method :    To test every car at a standstill with "Wheel Friction" & "Tyre Friction" set to "0"

Method 2 : To test every car up to 30mph with "Wheel Friction" & "Tire Friction" set to "150"

Notes : All of the above was performed with my XML tweak (ffb_force=9.0). Force feedback in the menu was set to on. All other settings were at "0", this was to eliminate any additional effects or forces in the game.


Conclusion :

There is absolutely no difference from using both Wheel Friction & Tyre Friction at "0" or "150" whatsoever. I also tried adding the ffb_friction= "5.0" to my wheel in the XML file and it also made absolutely no difference.

It is either bugged, broken or completely useless.



To add, I have tried the exact same scenario at Spain. The results were the same. Absolutely no difference at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you have a damper setting in the Logitech profiler? If so, is it on or off? If I recall correctly settings like wheel friction and tire friction required damper to be on in DR? 

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