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Force Feedback Fix / Tweak for Thrustmaster, Logitech, Fanatec etc.....

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, bogani said:

Would be interesting to know how many of the people that think the FFB is useless are on console vs PC. 

Trust me - it’s awful. I know everyone has been spamming these forum pages with FFB this and FFB that - but trust me when I tell you - on XB1 with the Thrustmaster TX, it’s HORRIBLE. No feeling aside from SAT, which is way to strong. Only other setting is Suspension which is noticeable when going over the cattle grates, and that’s IT. No other adjustable options, all greyed out or missing. I tried and tried again to get used to it and I can’t. I am a pretty good driver, and have pumped over a thousand hours into DR1. On DR2, I can drive, but it’s like I’m new to Rally, sliding, crashing, over rotating, its brutal. All to say, new game new physics blah blah blah - but there is no way I am this bad. I just can’t feel anything so my wheel offers NO cues as to what the car is doing. The only place I can drive with any sustained speed and confidence is the US location...more sweeping turns etc.

Technical areas like Argentina - forget it. As I noted before, I am back to DR1 until further notice 😕 

Edited by Buckwilder
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7 hours ago, Mooncrystal said:

@bogani Hello, I will test your setup. I have a T150 that is not exactly the same wheel but I didn't know that tyre friction works only if the damper setting in the control panel of the drivers was activated. I hate the wheel friction but like to have tyre friction. May be I will need to make some tweak here and here because of the wheel that is not exactly the same but it could make me able to give me more sensation. Thank you, I will tell you the result ^^ 

Just want to know, now many degrees you put on your wheel on the Thrustmaster control panel settings ?

900 in the control panel! 

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Posted (edited)

I tried Wheel and Damper Friction from 0 to 150 on G25 with Damper and Spring at 100 in wheel settings, did not have any effect or change feeling at all.

Having Sat and Suspension maxed just makes wheel force far to strong not very good for easy control and fast application of opposite lock.

The Rattle over Cattle grids is a canned effect for the collision force I think, as it is identical every time.

(My Usual setting for Damper and Spring in wheel profiler is 0 and has been for years of Sim racing  - Sims that have proper Feedback that works, unlike this)

Edited by DelDredd

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I've been using these settings that Jon Armstrong was using but on a G29 on a PS pro and have found them alot better. Less weight but more feel. Hope it helps others.

Screenshot_20190304-212301.png

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Mooncrystal said:

@bogani Hello, I will test your setup. I have a T150 that is not exactly the same wheel but I didn't know that tyre friction works only if the damper setting in the control panel of the drivers was activated. I hate the wheel friction but like to have tyre friction.

On my T150 (PC), tyre friction has no effect at all in DR2, even with damper in the Thrustmaster control panel set to 100 % and tyre friction set to 150 % in the game. I even tried setting the ffb_friction parameter in the XML wheel config file of DR2 to extremely high values like 10, but no effect at all. So this is definitely broken.

Suspension also seems flawed. It only generates occasional bumps in case of collisions, but no continuous road surface feedback (except for cattle grids).

Wheel friction works fine though. A little bit of wheel friction is realistic, otherwise it would be too easy to turn the wheel. But it's a matter of taste.

(To be sure, I tested each parameter individually with all others set to zero.)

Edited by Laserjones

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Laserjones said:

On my T150 (PC), tyre friction has no effect at all in DR2, even with damper in the Thrustmaster control panel set to 100 % and tyre friction set to 150 % in the game. I even tried setting the ffb_friction parameter in the XML wheel config file of DR2 to extremely high values like 10, but no effect at all. So this is definitely broken.

Suspension also seems flawed. It only generates occasional bumps in case of collisions, but no continuous road surface feedback (except for cattle grids).

Wheel friction works fine though. A little bit of wheel friction is realistic, otherwise it would be too easy to turn the wheel. But it's a matter of taste.

(To be sure, I tested each parameter individually with all others set to zero.)

Isn't tyre friction basically the same thing a tyre slip, which is why tyre slip is now blanked out? I'm using a g29 and I can definitely feel the tyres lose grip when I lose the rear and go sideways; the wheel basically goes light when they happens. 

 And the suspension seems to work fine as well as it communicates all the compressions, whether the compressions come from bumps or when I'm braking. True it doesn't give the textured feel like in DR rally, but thats probably because that was a fake effect ( it did not come from the actual suspension physics simulation) and they decided to go for a more pure steering colum only ffb this time. 

Edited by FreddieJupiter

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2 hours ago, FreddieJupiter said:

Isn't tyre friction basically the same thing a tyre slip, which is why tyre slip is now blanked out? I'm using a g29 and I can definitely feel the tyres lose grip when I lose the rear and go sideways; the wheel basically goes light when they happens. 

 And the suspension seems to work fine as well as it communicates all the compressions, whether the compressions come from bumps or when I'm braking. True it doesn't give the textured feel like in DR rally, but thats probably because that was a fake effect ( it did not come from the actual suspension physics simulation) and they decided to go for a more pure steering colum only ffb this time. 

No tire friction is not the same as tire slip. Tire friction is basically the tires themselves resisting turning. You can mostly feel this when at a dead stop and you try to turn the wheel - the standing friction of the tires on the road surface makes the wheel harder to turn (this is exactly why power steering exists.) You can test this yourself by turning it way up to 150 then turning the wheel at a complete stop. It should make the steering feel quite heavy, until you accelerate (even a little) and you should feel it immediately lighten.

Suspension setting does communicate some things, but it does not currently communicate any road feel. Dirt Rally 1 had this feature.

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34 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

No tire friction is not the same as tire slip. Tire friction is basically the tires themselves resisting turning. You can mostly feel this when at a dead stop and you try to turn the wheel - the standing friction of the tires on the road surface makes the wheel harder to turn (this is exactly why power steering exists.) You can test this yourself by turning it way up to 150 then turning the wheel at a complete stop. It should make the steering feel quite heavy, until you accelerate (even a little) and you should feel it immediately lighten.

Suspension setting does communicate some things, but it does not currently communicate any road feel. Dirt Rally 1 had this feature.

Dirt rally communicated road feel through a fake canned effect that did not come from suspension physics, this now appears to have been removed. 

 

I will test the wheel friction effect though when I have some time but i don't remember the tyre slip effect actually doing anything in the first dirt game, just like the engine vibration slider didn't do anything and it's now blanket out as well. 

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2 hours ago, FreddieJupiter said:

Dirt rally communicated road feel through a fake canned effect that did not come from suspension physics, this now appears to have been removed. 

Sigh, here we go again.

Some of the effects were "canned", yes. Mainly the rumbling on gravel surfaces. However, it's only "canned" because obviously the game does not simulate every single tiny rock in the gravel that creates the vibrations you feel in real life, so instead they create an approximation that recreates what you really feel.

Also, that is not the only effect missing or almost entirely missing from DR2. In DR you can feel when you lock the front wheels when sliding. The steering suddenly goes very light, and you can feel precisely the moment when the start spinning again and traction is regained.

There's even more than that but I'm not going to right a book on what you can feel in 30 seconds by loading up DR and seeing for yourself.

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30 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

Sigh, here we go again.

If you're not intersted in having a discussion with me that's fine. All I Did was point out that those effects are fake and canned because they do not come from the suspension physics. Obviously in real life you wouldn't feel those effect thru the steering column and there is nothing on the actual surfaces in DR 2 to give those effects thus they have to be faked. But as soon as you start faking things you no longer have a pure steering column feel and not everybody wants that. 

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42 minutes ago, FreddieJupiter said:

If you're not intersted in having a discussion with me that's fine. All I Did was point out that those effects are fake and canned because they do not come from the suspension physics. Obviously in real life you wouldn't feel those effect thru the steering column and there is nothing on the actual surfaces in DR 2 to give those effects thus they have to be faked. But as soon as you start faking things you no longer have a pure steering column feel and not everybody wants that. 

Duly noted. However, not feeling anything nor being able to react to varying conditions of tire slip and traction loss is not a better alternative. Driving a car IRL offers many cues about the aforementioned phenomenon - when we are using a wheel in a cockpit playing Dirt Rally, these recreations or ‘canned’ effects aid the driver to manage reactions that transfer in to actions resulting in steering input, throttle modulation, pitch, yaw, etc. If you get along fine without them, awesome. I for one as well as most others prefer some assistance...fake or otherwise - in order to ‘simulate’ a lifelike driving experience. There is no way to simulate driving a real car short of embedding certain effects which can’t be felt otherwise. That is unless you have a rig with a motion platform and $10K to invest in cutting edge sim tech. For me and others as it would appear, we want as much realism as possible without flattening the effect due to hardware limitations. 

I’ll take the canned ham, peas, and corn if it means I can feel something through my wheel - cause right now my Thrustmaster TX is a fresh serving of rotten meats and veggies.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

Duly noted. However, not feeling anything nor being able to react to varying conditions of tire slip and traction loss is not a better alternative. Driving a car IRL offers many cues about the aforementioned phenomenon - when we are using a wheel in a cockpit playing Dirt Rally, these recreations or ‘canned’ effects aid the driver to manage reactions that transfer in to actions resulting in steering input, throttle modulation, pitch, yaw, etc. If you get along fine without them, awesome. I for one as well as most others prefer some assistance...fake or otherwise - in order to ‘simulate’ a lifelike driving experience. There is no way to simulate driving a real car short of embedding certain effects which can’t be felt otherwise. That is unless you have a rig with a motion platform and $10K to invest in cutting edge sim tech. For me and others as it would appear, we want as much realism as possible without flattening the effect due to hardware limitations. 

I’ll take the canned ham, peas, and corn if it means I can feel something through my wheel - cause right now my Thrustmaster TX is a fresh serving of rotten meats and veggies.

Not feeling anything is an exaggeration, surely. I'm sure you you can feel compressions, bumps, the steering getting heavier under braking and lighter when the tyres start slipping. The biggest difference is the lack of surface texture compared to DR 1. 

The problem for the devs is that some people love lots of fake effects and some absolutely detest them, so they have to decide where on the scale their force feedback for a particulate game is going to be. Is it going to be more towards the fake end of the sale, or more towards the pure steering column end of the scale? In this case they went more towards the pure steering column end compared to DR 1, and I suspect it was Jon Armstrong who steered it in that direction because he wanted it to feel more like it feels in the real life rally cars that he drives, and that's why it is the way it is.

Edited by FreddieJupiter

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Posted (edited)

See, here's the problem. You keep saying "fake effects" which has a built-in assumption that they're wrong. I just told you that just because an effect might be "canned" (i.e. a pre-calculated effect that isn't coming from realtime physics calculations) does not mean it isn't realistic. When you drive a car on rough off-road/loose surfaces- especially a lightweight car that's been gutted for competition rally purposes - you feel a lot of stuff through the wheel that comes from all the imperfections. You don't feel individual stones, but you feel all the other irregularities as it's rarely ever just a smooth, uniform gravel surface. Now that's talking about gravel (of which there can be a lot of variation) and I'm not getting into other forms of loose surface, which can, at times, be quite smooth - but for the most part, you're going to get some feedback on it through the wheel. And a canned effect is just fine.

A good example of how a canned effect can work to a sim's favor is curbs. IRL curbs on racetracks have some sort of ribbing that makes a vibration or "buzz" when a car drives over it. Most racing sims that replicate this do so with a canned effect because it would be way too costly to simulate every single tiny divot in the curb's surface through physics calculations - you just used a canned effect that gives the exact same (or 99.9999% the same) effect as the real sensation.

edit: And this is the last post I'll make on the subject. The community has spoken and the feedback is obvious, but if some people want to go ahead and defend the current state of the game, well... go ahead I guess.

Edited by ShodanCat
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2 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

See, here's the problem. You keep saying "fake effects" which has a built-in assumption that they're wrong. I just told you that just because an effect might be "canned" (i.e. a pre-calculated effect that isn't coming from realtime physics calculations) does not mean it isn't realistic. When you drive a car on rough off-road/loose surfaces- especially a lightweight car that's been gutted for competition rally purposes - you feel a lot of stuff through the wheel that comes from all the imperfections. You don't feel individual stones, but you feel all the other irregularities as it's rarely ever just a smooth, uniform gravel surface. Now that's talking about gravel (of which there can be a lot of variation) and I'm not getting into other forms of loose surface, which can, at times, be quite smooth - but for the most part, you're going to get some feedback on it through the wheel. And a canned effect is just fine.

A good example of how a canned effect can work to a sim's favor is curbs. IRL curbs on racetracks have some sort of ribbing that makes a vibration or "buzz" when a car drives over it. Most racing sims that replicate this do so with a canned effect because it would be way too costly to simulate every single tiny divot in the curb's surface through physics calculations - you just used a canned effect that gives the exact same (or 99.9999% the same) effect as the real sensation.

Sorry, but you really don't feel anything through the steering wheel in real life when going over bumps or gravel. Next time you are driving your car pay careful attention to what you can actually feel through the steering column. You think you can feel bumps through the steering column but in fact you will find that you feel the bumps and various shocks through the chassis and it feels like it's coming through the wheel.

also I never said that the surface texture effect in DR1 is wrong; I said its fake because it's canned as opposed to deriving from the suspension physics. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, FreddieJupiter said:

Not feeling anything is an exaggeration, surely. I'm sure you you can feel compressions, bumps, the steering getting heavier under braking and lighter when the tyres start slipping.

As a matter of fact - no I can’t feel ANY of that and this is my issue with the TX on XB1. It feels like I am driving with NO effects other than SAT. To my earlier point, we are not in real cars, so simulating steering column feel on a real vehicle is fruitless in its application here. I have no other forces to provide feedback on what the car is doing. I am not asking for fake effects to the moon and back. You make it seem as if we need it spectrumized: fake - OR real. This is a video game. Give us the real, and whatever ‘fake’ is needed to complete the feeling so as to best emulate the real thing.

I get that the balance between sim and fake is a fine line depending on preference, equipment and so on...but it’s a FACT that we all looked forward to DR2. Why? Dirt Rally 1!! Fake, canned, whatever - it struck a balance which appealed to the masses, end of story.

Sorry to say but you and select few others reside in the minority - this game’s FFB does not create and enjoyable feeling compared to the first game. If they were seeking realism, they achieved it at the expense of driving enjoyment.

Edited by Buckwilder
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, FreddieJupiter said:

You think you can feel bumps through the steering column but in fact you will find that you feel the bumps and various shocks through the chassis and it feels like it's coming through the wheel.

Exactly the point. Thank you.

Can you feel chassis vibration through your rig? I actually can - but ONLY when it is created through  the rumble pack/vibration in my wheel base!!! 

We are not in real cars, so sensations need to be recreated by whatever means necessary to capture it - in our case - the FFB parameters on the wheel.

Edited by Buckwilder
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

As a matter of fact - no I can’t feel ANY of that and this is my issue with the TX on XB1. It feels like I am driving with NO effects other than SAT. To my earlier point, we are not in real cars, so simulating steering column feel on a real vehicle is fruitless in its application here. I have no other forces to provide feedback on what the car is doing. I am not asking for fake effects to the moon and back. You make it seem as if we need it spectrumized: fake - OR real. This is a video game. Give us the real, and whatever ‘fake’ is needed to complete the feeling so as to best emulate the real thing.

I get that the balance between sim and fake is a fine line depending on preference, equipment and so on...but it’s a FACT that we all looked forward to DR2. Why? Dirt Rally 1!! Fake, canned, whatever - it struck a balance which appealed to the masses, end of story.

Sorry to say but you and select few others reside in the minority - this game’s FFB does not create and enjoyable feeling compared to the first game. If they were seeking realism, they achieved it at the expense of driving enjoyment.

What wheel are you using? Did you calibrate it properly? Did you mess with linearity setting and all that stuff? Also can you post your ffb settings? 

Edited by FreddieJupiter

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7 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

Exactly the point. Thank you.

Can you feel chassis vibration through your rig? I actually can - but ONLY when it is created through  the rumble pack/vibration in my wheel base!!! 

We are not in real cars, so sensations need to be recreated by whatever means necessary to capture it - in our case - the FFB parameters on the wheel.

Indeed the definition of a pure steering column force feedback is that you should feel the bumps through the rig and not so much through the wheel. The bump effects that we can feel in DR 2 are actually exaggerated; in real life you can't even feel that. 

 

Like I said, the devs have to decide what kind of ffb they are going to make and evidently they went more towards the pure steering column end of the spectrum this time. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes I have done all of that. Trust me I am VERY well ‘seasoned’ when it comes to driving games, calibrating/optimizing  my settings etc. As I have eluded to several times above - using a Trustmaster TX wheel,  T3PA Pro pedals, TH8A sequential shifter and TSS Handbrake +. Full cockpit etc. This is not an equipment issue my friend!

Edited by Buckwilder
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Just now, Buckwilder said:

Yes I have done all of that. Trust me I am VERY well ‘seasoned’ when it comes to driving games, calibrating/optimist my settings etc. As I have eluded to several times above - using a Trustmaster TX wheel,  T3PA Pro pedals, TH8A sequential shifter and TSS Handbrake +. Full cockpit etc. This is not an equipment issue my friend!

I'm using the humble g29 and can definitely feel everything I need to drive, obviously minus the canned texture effect that I can feel in DR. 

Is the thrustmaster TX wheel about the same quality as the t300? Because that's even stronger than the g29 so I would think that it would give you an even better feeling. 

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You would think, but it doesn’t. And yes, it is akin to the T300RS. You Understand that the wheel optimization for this game was done on a ‘per wheel basis’. My adjustable parameters on the TX are limited. Tyre slip and Wheel Friction are greyed out (non adjustable).

I can adjust SAT, Suspension, Center steering and soft lock.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

You would think, but it doesn’t. And yes, it is akin to the T300RS. You Understand that the wheel optimization for this game was done on a ‘per wheel basis’. My adjustable parameters on the TX are limited. Tyre slip and Wheel Friction are greyed out (non adjustable).

I can adjust SAT, Suspension, Center steering and soft lock.

Can you post you force feedback settings anyway? Tyre slip doesn't matter because the game communicates that by varying the amount of torque through the wheel and the SAT and tyre friction is enough to give you that effect. 

 

Wheel friction isnt greyed out for me but I'm on the ps4 pro. Don't you have enable something in the thrustmaster control panel to make the wheel friction available? 

 

Btw what is the general feeling of the wheel? Does it feel really light? Not much resistance, ffb deadzone? Or the opposite? 

Edited by FreddieJupiter

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Posted (edited)

I am on Xbox, I can’t adjust the TM control panel, that is for PC users. SAT is at 60, Suspension at 45. Those are the only 2 that matter. The other settings are for soft lock and center steering force which don’t affect anything while driving as it pertains to the sensation I get from the wheel while driving.

We can go around in circles on this, I’m telling you - the FFB is screwed. I have tried multiple settings with FFB and Suspension, they all feel like ****.

Edited by Buckwilder
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

I am on Xbox, I can’t adjust the TM control panel, that is for PC users. SAT is at 60, Suspension at 45. Those are the only 2 that matter. The other settings are for soft lock and center steering force which don’t affect anything while driving as it pertains to the sensation I get from the wheel while driving.

We can go around in circles on this, I’m telling you - the FFB is screwed. I have tried multiple settings with FFB and Suspension, they all feel like ****.

It certainly doesn't feel screwed for me, but like I said I'm on a different console using a different wheel. 

 

I guess well we'll just have to wait for codemasters to make an official announcement. 

Edited by FreddieJupiter

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