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Force Feedback Fix / Tweak for Thrustmaster, Logitech, Fanatec etc.....

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Hi gents. I am the owner of the guide posted on steam here : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1663123655
Ive had a fair amount of time digging around the XML values, the fix / guide isnt perfect and may require you to do a bit more playing. But it has at least given me some sort of increased sensation of FFB albeit very very basic. I dont think the current FFB code is capable much more then what it currently does. It leans heavily towards the suspension feedback and thats about it.

It seems that a lot of the current values / data is very similar to Dirt4. I had to do a similar amount of faffing around for Dirt 4 as well as seen here : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=945459348

Im sure / hope this will get resolved, but i have a bad feeling that the core FFB coding is pretty basic and leans more on the arcade side, its far too similar to Dirt4 in my personal opinion.
 
After hours of looking at footage and looking into the XML files I honestly think that the current FFB is intended. Looking at the dev videos and videos released after the embargo you can clearly see there is very little to no information coming from their wheels. The only forces that seem apparent are the SAT forces, and to be honest thats quite minimal. Ok to be fair i am kind of guessing and clutching at straws here a bit, but im fairly confident that the majority of the FFB code was taken directly from Dirt4 and put into Dirt Rally 2.0 (I would love someone to prove otherwise.)

Now, im not here to bash the game, in fact i think it has improved from DR1 in a number of ways and i cannot wait to start playing it properly, im a bit miffed that this might well be another Dirt4 situation, which left me annoyed somewhat.

So to finish with a couple of questions if I may.

1. Has the FFB code changed from Dev build to Steam build in any way ? (as far as you know)
2. Does DR2.0 share the same FFB code from Dirt 4 ?
3. Is your current FFB code only linked to the suspension and nothing else ? As in the compression from gravel etc but not tire slip ?





 

Edited by Grumps82
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I got a funny feeling because of the stage degradation road noise is a no go because the road noise is changing depending on where you start the rally. This sucks because i would rather have road noise than changing conditions without feel. As this is supposed to be a rally "sim" game and compared to dirt rally 1 which was considered a sim it's a shame. If the road surface is a mix of 3 different variants so as such the FFB would be impossible to match up with the degradation you currently are running on it's a crying shame. I wish Codies would make a new engine to deal with this kinda stuff as the ego engine is surely making it's age known by now, the graphics look great, the physics feel great but the FFB is severely lacking on wheels for road noise.

Edited by OneManCrimewave
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When i found out about stage degradation i thought you would "feel" more bumps and ruts through your wheel starting later compared to starting 1st on a stage. So far it's a crying shame because the game is bloody awesome in every other aspect. I hope it is just a bug with FFB but other "sim racers" on "you tube" etc thought it felt great but your average joe who played Dirt rally misses the road feel. If my original assumption is correct then a lil bit of "fake" road noise would be ok for me.

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So i asked GamerMuscle about the current FFB issue and whether it was noticed before it bacame available to the public.

https://gyazo.com/807801b7433f161f2c146b60f028b757
 

Did you not notice the FFB issue before DR2 was released to the public ?
 
Its always been like this, I was hoping it was just a case that the press version needed patching or something, technically self-aligning FFB works and lets you drive fine but it is strange that the game lacks other aspects of FFB found in Dirt rally 1 and Dirt 4.

Thats fine, i have no problem with that and i appreciate the reply and honesty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What i now have a problem with is this. I do not think (correct me codemasters) that the current state of code for Dirt Rally 2.0 FFB is complex enough to work out anything other than what it currently does. I would assume that to increase or bring in any other forms off FFB sensation it would require a large amount of re writing and a good amount of testing too, something i am sure they would not want to do or have time to do.

I imagine that what they will do is check the current lines in the XML file and add the relevant values in a similar fashion to my guide above. And from that point on i cant see any FFB improvments other than increasing the current strength.

So yeah, im not here having a go at anyone, im posting my thoughts on the whole thing. Its a shame, in terms of a Rally package its nearly nearly there. Maybe hire someone from Reiza studios for the week and see how FFB should feel.

 

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If the FFB is actually supposed to feel like this I'll be 100% asking for a refund. It feels like you're driving on completely flat carpet at the moment. 

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I am fearful that the current FFB is exactly how Codemasters intend it to be apart from the fact its too weak and those increased "ffb_force" settings will be patched into the game.

I would like clarification from Codemasters about this, as well as my 3 questions above (which are also below :classic_smile: :

1. Has the FFB code changed from Dev build to Steam build in any way ? (as far as you know)
2. Does DR2.0 share the same FFB code from Dirt 4 ?
3. Is your current FFB code only linked to the suspension and nothing else ? As in the compression from gravel etc but not tire slip ?

 

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It is lacking in areas, but the main FFB effect is there and it's the most important one. Self Aligning Tourqe. If this was missing, it would be Dirt Rally(pre FFB overhaul) all over again. To state that it is undriveable as some do is a BIG stretch. 

But yes, I want the wheel to go light over crests and under locked brakes. I want the ruts to pull the wheel left and right. These thi gs are missing at the moment. 

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Yeah agree.

It needs a bit of a tweak to include some addditional effect thats for sure. The physics and general weight of the cars feel really good.

I also see we have been gifted 1,000,000 in game credits as well.

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It feels like you're driving on a perfectly flat carpet at the moment. And while it is "driveable" it feels so bad that I don't want to play until it's fixed, so essentially it is undriveable for me personally. 

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I agree with some of the things here.

But I also fear that people might demand the FFB they get from track-racing with wide slicks and super stiff suspension.

In fact in Rally it is very easy to steer on the loose surfaces, in opposite to track racing on tarmac. 

Also, the tyres of rally cars have bigger sidewalls which also allows them to compress and "swallow" a good amount of bumps and "noise" from gravel.

The soft suspension does also it's part in filtering out the road surface.

The tyres are rubber after all and not wood.

 

I don't have a "consumer wheel" anymore so I cannot speak for them, but with my Simucube DD-Wheel (Small Mige) I can defintely feel the different road surfaces. Weight transfer is fantastic imo, self aligning torque is how I expect it to be and the feeling of a big jump is great. And last but not least, the feeling of getting dragged into a rut if you're starting very much behind everyone else.

Key for me was to set the "wheel friction" to a minimum (have it on 3) and "tyre friction" on 0. They are like dampening the signal. So the only sliders I work with are "self aligning torque" and "suspension". In the Simucube Config Tool I just set 2% Inertia and 0.5% Friction and every filter to Off, also the Reconstruction Filter to Off. 

 

Of course the FFB system has some flaws and a general improvement of the effects is neccessary, but maybe some people have to re-think what FFB in an actual rally car means and would be like, before they go on a rant. Just don't compare it to racing on tarmac please.

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How about if we compare it to the past 2 Dirt games? AS its a huge step down from both of them. 

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4 minutes ago, sbtm said:

SNIP


Thats a good post and I certainly agree on most of it.


The standard issues is that the current FFB strength is too low, now whether or not its realistic i have absolutely no idea, i can only compare to Dirt Rally and Dirt Rally with the "Impact" FFB mod.

The problem i have with it is that there isnt a lot of information coming from the FFB. Ok so general bumps here and there but not a lot else. There isnt really anything translated to the wheel other than bumps and wheel angle. Is it supposed to be like this ? Is that how it is in real rallying ? I have no idea, maybe someone here knows.

But comparing the XML files from DR2 against DIRT4 there isnt a lot of difference, im assuming they share the same basic code and that this current FFB is not capable of transmitting any other sensation through our wheels. Again, is this how it should be ?????

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14 minutes ago, Decks said:

How about if we compare it to the past 2 Dirt games? AS its a huge step down from both of them. 

no, sorry, I think it's a lot better (and realistic) than DR1. Never played Dirt 4 though.

But again, I definetly see what the issues are and I just think that these issues are much more expressed with a low fidelity wheel with a low dynamic range. For DD Wheels it just seems not so much a problem, feels pretty good for me. But we need a solution for everyone and a system that works with every wheel out there and gives satisfying results across all manufacturers and ranges.

 

@Grumps82 What I know is that there were rally drivers that lost their steering wheel during a stage and started steering with only turning the steering post by hand to get to the end of the stage. 

My best bet on the XML files is, that the force feedback comes more or less unfiltered from the physics... so with little to no changes in the XML files they can feel very different. 

What did Rally consultant Jon Armstrong say about the FFB? Does anyone know?

Edited by sbtm

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10 minutes ago, Decks said:

How about if we compare it to the past 2 Dirt games? AS its a huge step down from both of them. 

The problem could be they had too much FFB force. I can tell you for example that DR1 with a Fanatec CSW2.5 is several times too powerful FFB compared to a real car when we're talking about non-major impacts.  You literally can injure yourself if you spend enough time at the wheel at 100% settings in DR1 + Fanatec (depending on your seating position too).  It's not like this at all in reality as another user stated above.  Nobody wants to put more force on the driver than necessary in a modern rally car and they also don't want to require large amounts of energy/force from the driver as they'd just tire out.  They get as little force back to them as possible while still being able to have full control and sufficient feeling.

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I never played DR1 or D4 with a wheel, but I used to play it with a gamepad. In DR1 with the gamepad, it would vibrate a lot of the time for example when locking up bumping over the surface. This sensation got lost in D4 and hasn't returned in DR2 with my wheel.

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8 minutes ago, sbtm said:

@Grumps82 What I know is that there were rally drivers that lost their steering wheel during a stage and started steering with only turning the steering post by hand to get to the end of the stage. 

My best bet on the XML files is, that the force feedback comes more or less unfiltered from the physics... so with little to no changes in the XML files they can feel very different. 

What did Rally consultant Jon Armstrong say about the FFB? Does anyone know?


Yeah i did hear this as well to be fair. I mean there are almost too many factors or combinations. One of the many replies i get is " Well modern day rally cars are great at suppressing the feel etc etc etc". .................... But im testing in in the old Escort, Lancia, M3 etc so thats different.

But yes, i would love to know what Jon thought to be honest, i mean he does this in real life :classic_biggrin:.

Edited by Grumps82

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4 minutes ago, chukonu said:

I never played DR1 or D4 with a wheel, but I used to play it with a gamepad. In DR1 with the gamepad, it would vibrate a lot of the time for example when locking up bumping over the surface. This sensation got lost in D4 and hasn't returned in DR2 with my wheel.

This may be true, but that isn't a really realistic feature that hasn't returned.  It's an aide to make up for the fact that you aren't in a physical car.   Anyway I do respect everyone who complains that a feature is removed from any software, so I don't want to appear one sided here.  Before removing, put it in as an option if possible.

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1 minute ago, Grumps82 said:

But yes, i would love to know what Jon thought to be honest, i mean he does this in real life :classic_biggrin:.

Well since Jon put in many hours at the wheel we can reasonably assume it basically passed his feedback.   Pun untended.   (yes you are right, having actual confirmation would be more scientific, but we can be 95% sure)

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It was quite useful, I could read the car quite well seemingly feeling which tyre was losing grip even.

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7 minutes ago, Grumps82 said:

But im testing in in the old Escort, Lancia, M3 etc so thats different.

on loose surface you just have a lighter wheel than on tarmac. drive the one Australian Rally Stage where you have a good amount of tarmac, don't know the name. But the steering gets so much heavier when you change from gravel to tarmac, at least for me. I did this stage in the Escort MkII

On loose surface there is just no ultimate lateral force that works against your tyres because it's not a compact and hard thing like tarmac (gravel just vanishes to the left and right etc under your tyre). The car is just dancing and constantly swimming on the gravel.

Edited by sbtm

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4 minutes ago, chukonu said:

It was quite useful, I could read the car quite well seemingly feeling which tyre was losing grip even.

😄 yes that's really useful without any sense of motion for the body. 

At the moment i'm buildung a DIY quad-motion rig and the people who already played DR 2.0 with their quad-motion rigs said it's absolutely fantastic and also much better feeling than in DR1. So if they could transfer the motion signals into some sort of FFB for the wheel, I think it would help many people.

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