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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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On 4/6/2019 at 2:44 PM, JesseDeya said:

How do you or any of us know how well they are addressing it? They haven't said anything of substance on the issue in five weeks. Here is the slightly cheeky summary of what they have said:

  • We know some of you want us to look at FFB, we're on to it, don't worry!
  • Most of you are happy with the FFB, some want it closer to DR 1.0.
  • Our handling team really needs to look at this. We want to get it right so it'll take some time, because we're professionals. Please don't ask why we didn't get it right for release.
  • Of all our customers currently beta testing our product, we'll select few of you, using chicken bones and tea leaves, to do a testing for us (for free) on an area we should have paid focus testers to do for us prior to release.
  • Just to reiterate, most of you are happy, some of you want minor tweaks, the rest of you are idiots that don't know what you want.
  • We'll continue to keep you updated, pinky swear. Have a great year! Buy our DLC!

Stockholm syndrome 101. Wait a few MONTHS?

 

I'd sooner trust Jon Armstrong on how a rally car's feedback through the steering wheel should feel than some Australian basement dwelling neckbeard inbred posting in forums

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Posted (edited)

Except he also gets confused about the purpose of his wheel's driver settings. He turns off Spring and Damper in the TM driver. I did the same cause I saw him do it on one of his youtube videos. In retrospect, I think he and other sim drivers believe its an additional effect channel, (like rumble or something) but it really helps complete the basic ffb SAT.

Without Spring and Damper, I can't feel the tires over or understeer. Likewise, I have severely misunderstood the purpose of wheel friction, because after setting it to the same number as SAT I got a lot more detail (not clipping) from tires and suspension. It still feels nowhere near what my small pickup feels like when driving down a gravel road in real life as far as bumps and road rutts are concerned, but there is a hint of them which is way more than what I had when SAT was the only thing I could feel. Now when the back-end of the escort mk2 kicks out it doesn't throw my arm with it. I'm able to tell the car where to go while still feeling where it is going, how much traction I have under trail breaking or if the rear wheel is breaking away under acceleration out of a corner.

Edited by Snakeye5
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http://blog.codemasters.com/community/04/dirt-rally-2-0-road-book-08-04-19/

 

Quote

We’re also making some headway into tackling the FFB issues a lot of you have been discussing on our forums, channels and beyond. We’ll have more for you on that soon, but we just wanted to reassure you that it’s still top of our priority list and that we’re making progress.

probably the most promising update we've had from them so far. 

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I’m done waiting. I paid $83 for a product I’m not satisfied with. I want my money back!

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On 4/9/2019 at 1:13 AM, theravenousbeas said:

 

I'd sooner trust Jon Armstrong on how a rally car's feedback through the steering wheel should feel than some Australian basement dwelling neckbeard inbred posting in forums

So you'd trust a paid shill for an objective opinion on a product they have a vested interest in promoting?  lol.....ok. 

Have fun with that champ.

 

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On 4/8/2019 at 5:40 PM, Snakeye5 said:

Except he also gets confused about the purpose of his wheel's driver settings. He turns off Spring and Damper in the TM driver. I did the same cause I saw him do it on one of his youtube videos. In retrospect, I think he and other sim drivers believe its an additional effect channel, (like rumble or something) but it really helps complete the basic ffb SAT.

Without Spring and Damper, I can't feel the tires over or understeer. Likewise, I have severely misunderstood the purpose of wheel friction, because after setting it to the same number as SAT I got a lot more detail (not clipping) from tires and suspension. It still feels nowhere near what my small pickup feels like when driving down a gravel road in real life as far as bumps and road rutts are concerned, but there is a hint of them which is way more than what I had when SAT was the only thing I could feel. Now when the back-end of the escort mk2 kicks out it doesn't throw my arm with it. I'm able to tell the car where to go while still feeling where it is going, how much traction I have under trail breaking or if the rear wheel is breaking away under acceleration out of a corner.

Spring and Damper hides actual FFB - they are artificial and only depends on wheel position, not feedback from the car. Spring and damper are usefull only for old games, which don't have any FFB. Even in RBR you need to turn off Spring and Damper, if you want FFB from game.

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On 4/9/2019 at 6:11 PM, Decks said:

http://blog.codemasters.com/community/04/dirt-rally-2-0-road-book-08-04-19/

Quote

We’re also making some headway into tackling the FFB issues a lot of you have been discussing on our forums, channels and beyond. We’ll have more for you on that soon, but we just wanted to reassure you that it’s still top of our priority list and that we’re making progress.

probably the most promising update we've had from them so far. 

It's a decent step forward, first time they have given it the gravitas it deserves.

For the rookies here, you need to make noise for CM to listen. You may not agree with the method, but the endless discussions here and elsewhere on FFB issues has seen CM change their stance in just a week. We have gone from "a few people" (who don't know what they want) to "a lot of you" and "top priority". Not bad progress.

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14 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

It's a decent step forward, first time they have given it the gravitas it deserves.

For the rookies here, you need to make noise for CM to listen. You may not agree with the method, but the endless discussions here and elsewhere on FFB issues has seen CM change their stance in just a week. We have gone from "a few people" (who don't know what they want) to "a lot of you" and "top priority". Not bad progress.

I don't think codemasters have changed their stance in a week, they've been looking into it for some time. I agree making noise is necessary. But endless vitriol is not required. We've had dialogue with devs for some time.

Let your love light shine.

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4 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

I don't think codemasters have changed their stance in a week, they've been looking into it for some time. I agree making noise is necessary. But endless vitriol is not required. We've had dialogue with devs for some time.

Let your love light shine.

What you want to be true and what is demonstrably true are not the same thing.

For starters, I didn't say them looking into it was a change of stance. I said they have finally and for the first time acknowledged that the FFB issue affects of "a lot" of us. They have also said, for the first time, that it is a top priority.

You have a justifiably proud role to play in that, your poll certainly helped - even if you probably wish it didn't. All the discussion helps, annoyed customers help, people pointing out the problems, highlighting why this is even a problem (for the flat Earthers), and people regularly holding CM to task on a daily basis all helps. There has been some vitriol at times from some punters sure, most of which CM have brought upon themselves - and not just with this release - which also helps. What doesn't help are people making excuses for CM about their failings on their behalf, let them do that.

Can I ask what actual dialogue have "we" have had with the devs on this issue? I'm genuinely interested to know. Did I miss something?

ps: The irony of you posting purely to argue with me... and then asking me let my "love light" shine. You might want to shine that light in a nearby mirror mate.

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Not argument per se, just a counter statement, so as not to hand victory to abuse. 

Dialogue both here, and on our discord with developers.

And to correct one thing. My poll was not to fit an agenda of mine, it was in no way an attempt to cherry pick. It was simply a way to help everybody.

My opinion on FFB is clear. I want change, I'm just cautious about it. What I want for myself, and hundreds of other people whose opinions I hold dear is that the right message gets across. And we get to a solution that suits every user. Which I feel is fair.

 

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Your hyperbole doesn't help either. I've never been abusive (as far as I can remember!), nor particularly vitriolic... unless you include preparing CM newbies for the inevitably overall disappointment with long term support.

I'm willing to take your intentions at face value, even if I think they and your conduct is slightly naive, not that what I think about another forum user matters a damn to getting this title fixed.

So I'll check back in when they actually get around to releasing a FFB fix, good luck in the meantime!

ps: The Community Manager (PR) is not the same as talking with the devs. Again, if I've missed something I'd be interested to know.

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On 4/5/2019 at 10:03 PM, Madhun1967 said:

IMHO , simple math ....................2-3, maybe few more i dont know about  main Dirt forums in the world and on which  most people have some complaints or concerns about FFb . Dont they all see that? 

use some common sense. Who is gonna post on forums and complain, people who are happy, or people who are angry ? 1/10 from the former and 9/10 from the latter.

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1 hour ago, paint21 said:

use some common sense. Who is gonna post on forums and complain, people who are happy, or people who are angry ? 1/10 from the former and 9/10 from the latter.

Yes, it´s always stated that people who are less satisfied with a product are more likely to point out this dissatisfaction. And I don´t want to disagree here. But I asked before: If the majority of feedback that IS voiced is that a certain thing should be changed, what should be done in this case ? Nothing, because there is the possibility that the silent people are happy (we still don´t know for sure, again, just because you´re ok with something doesn´t mean you are against changes) ? Or better listen to the feedback THAT you get ?

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Civarello said:

Yes, it´s always stated that people who are less satisfied with a product are more likely to point out this dissatisfaction. And I don´t want to disagree here. But I asked before: If the majority of feedback that IS voiced is that a certain thing should be changed, what should be done in this case ? Nothing, because there is the possibility that the silent people are happy (we still don´t know for sure, again, just because you´re ok with something doesn´t mean you are against changes) ? Or better listen to the feedback THAT you get ?

QFT.

Take for example the people here that get upset when another FFB thread gets started, and that we don't need to keep talking about the same problems. If that were to happen, the FFB issue would be mentioned once and duly ignored by CM because it wouldn't appear to actually be a problem.

The argument that the silent majority are happy and don't feel compelled to say anything is just as flawed as arguing the silent majority are unhappy but can see people are already discussing their issues online... and don't feel compelled to say anything.

What seems to be useful is the observation of how much of the discussion revolves around the FFB shortfalls, and how prevalent it is on every online discussion platform where Dirt Rally 2.0 has a presence. Compared to other racing titles it's pretty obvious (to me) that the level of dissatisfaction is significantly above the normal "noise" threshold for bugs or feature wish lists.

I think (hope) we are starting to see CM finally recognise that. By them stating today that the FFB is a top priority is a welcomed acknowledgement, albeit 6 weeks late. I stand by the assertion that this should have been a day 1 priority, but here we are regardless. 

Edited by JesseDeya
Expansion of thought.
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16 minutes ago, Civarello said:

Yes, it´s always stated that people who are less satisfied with a product are more likely to point out this dissatisfaction. And I don´t want to disagree here. But I asked before: If the majority of feedback that IS voiced is that a certain thing should be changed, what should be done in this case ? Nothing, because there is the possibility that the silent people are happy (we still don´t know for sure, again, just because you´re ok with something doesn´t mean you are against changes) ? Or better listen to the feedback THAT you get ?

You're absolutely right there. If the majority of voices online ask for something, though it may not represent everyone, it represents an influential amount. 

I'm all in favour of complaint, it's just the manner of which it is delivered that I often have an issue with.

It can be the case that a few people making a lot of noise however, can mask a lot of quieter voices who have other issues of equal importance. 

It looks as if codemasters are pushing the boat out with the next patch and all is looking much better with regard to longer term issues too.

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On 4/9/2019 at 1:13 AM, theravenousbeas said:

 

I'd sooner trust Jon Armstrong on how a rally car's feedback through the steering wheel should feel than some Australian basement dwelling neckbeard inbred posting in forums

That's interesting, given what you said on Discord.

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5 hours ago, virgism said:

Spring and Damper hides actual FFB - they are artificial and only depends on wheel position, not feedback from the car. Spring and damper are usefull only for old games, which don't have any FFB. Even in RBR you need to turn off Spring and Damper, if you want FFB from game.

Can someone confirm or disprove this and maybe point us to a (more or less) official source that actually explains the settings in the Thrustmaster tool (and maybe equivalent tools from other manufacturers)?

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20 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

That's interesting, given what you said on Discord.

 2124658781_Ravbeastffb.JPG.ad1df442b318ac758c3c09f208edad30.JPG

I'm all for you being in the discord as an active member, but copy pasting stuff onto here isn't cool. The weird cross examination thing is a little pointless at this point. Let's all get along, and leave each forum and people's comments where they were intended to be read.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

I'm all for you being in the discord as an active member, but copy pasting stuff onto here isn't cool. The weird cross examination thing is a little pointless at this point. Let's all get along, and leave each forum and people's comments where they were intended to be read.

Fine, then please inform ravbeast - an active discord member of yours - that unfortunately for him I don't live in a basement, nor do I have a neckbeard. I DO have a lovely handlebar moustache, and live in a house with my wife and daughter. I'm pretty sure I'm not inbred, but if I were maybe I wouldn't be smart enough to tell, which is something we should all be concerned about.

For background, I wouldn't normally stoop to such tit-for-tat retorts, in fact I initially only reported his post and moved on... until I read the almost comical contradiction he was posting in Discord. If someone want to challenge my opinion that is fine, I think debate is healthy, but when they combine unabashed personal insults with arguments they have themselves countered (in other places) I think I'm justified to do a little public cross examination, if only to embarrass the dipshit.

Why was I reading the Discord? Because you told me you had developer dialogue there. I am still looking for something meaningful

As a discord moderator, you might also want to consider that what is posted there is as public as it here. I haven't even started with the way I have been talked about in your channels, nor do I necessarily intend to (I'm too old to be actually offended) but it doesn't exactly match the "love light" persona.

I'd like to be more positive about DR 2.0, and I think in time I will be if they unfluck the major issues and actually deliver on Oculus Rift support, but until then I'll keep shining the spot light on CM, you can shine the love light on whom ever you please 😍.

Edited by JesseDeya
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1 hour ago, Rallystu2 said:

 

It looks as if codemasters are pushing the boat out with the next patch and all is looking much better with regard to longer term issues too.

Lets hope so as the last 2 patches have barely touched on the main problems of the game. Tbh im still a bit worried that this patch wont be what we are hoping for. I do belive Codies released this game with having in mind they will finish it 6 months down the line. 

Hope im wrong and the patch in a weeks time is great.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Civarello said:

Yes, it´s always stated that people who are less satisfied with a product are more likely to point out this dissatisfaction. And I don´t want to disagree here. But I asked before: If the majority of feedback that IS voiced is that a certain thing should be changed, what should be done in this case ? Nothing, because there is the possibility that the silent people are happy (we still don´t know for sure, again, just because you´re ok with something doesn´t mean you are against changes) ? Or better listen to the feedback THAT you get ?

Oh no im totally on your point. FFB could definitely be more enjoyable, altough at the moment im not too unhappy about and feel alright. the only thing im REALLY missing is that you cant really feel the ruts as much, they do affect the handling immensely, as does your position on the track. But you cant feel the rut in the wheel, i dont really know if you should at those speeds, with that suspension. i dont think the wheel and suspension feedback on that resembles the feel you get when driving a stock road car on the sort of terain you do here, and if so in a much more harsher fashion.

not driven a world rally car, although taking a similar sport, Mountainbiking. when you compare going down a trail with a 500-600 $ Commuter that your mom would drive to work, with a 3000 $ Full suspension bike with carefully tested geometry, 203 mm disk brakes, 16 cm of suspension travel, 2,8 " wide tires feels like driving a little scooter that reaches 300 kph in a quarter mile, to a chill sunday ride with a cafe racer trough a winding mountain road.

But i dont really think that complaining, creating dozens of threads just not discussing on how it should be fixed, or if so in a very undervalued manner, but just bash CM really helps.

I see Posts that ask a hundred times when is the patch coming, although CM have said they dont have an exact ETA, and we´ll be the first to know. That the Game is beeing abandoned, with a patch around the corner, new content in and FFB fix closer than ever. That they want their Money back because CM havent fixed it yet, so the game isnt finished and is a alpha. 

Its just that this does nothing that you are wanting. No one is doing extra hours because a couple of mad lads raged on the forums for 10 pages straight. If there is an issue, Developers will try to sort it out with everything thats on their hands if its such a core feature as FFB is in a racing game. The only thing they need is 1. Get notified ONCE that there is an issue and 2. Be informed on what exact part of that core feature doesnt work as intended, or not as desired by players. 

And that also is part of the reason why the Bug threads have like 8-20 pages. People dont check if the problem is already reported, they just post into the bug thread. even without anymore useful information (see 2. above). Also people are asking follow up questions in that thread and go back and forth 2 or 3 times and then there are 6 off topic posts that fill like half a page.

Edited by paint21
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i have been loading up the game every now and then, trying it and turning off. 

Today i completed 2 full stages in the historic events, using the mini. I used the elite controller and found that the vibration feedback was really good considering it was a controller not a wheel. It reminded me of how the wheel should be in terms of feel from the road, quite impressed considering i m unhappy with the game due to it's issues.

That's what i believe the problem with FFB is, the lack of feel through the road, with it it will improve ten fold. 

Oddly getting to like and enjoy this game.

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On 4/7/2019 at 4:15 PM, Laserjones said:

I'm sure that he means tire friction.

Wheel friction only makes the steering wheel generally harder to turn (regardless of your speed and the angle of your car wheels) and has nothing to do with dynamic driving feedback. It should normally be set to zero or almost zero.

Tire friction is the friction of the tires on the ground that makes the wheel harder to turn as long as the car is standing still or very slow.

I thought so too but after setting friction to the same value as SAT, I can vaguely feel road ruts and gravel vibration.

 
 
 
 
 
 
5
10 hours ago, virgism said:

Spring and Damper hides actual FFB - they are artificial and only depends on wheel position, not feedback from the car. Spring and damper are usefull only for old games, which don't have any FFB. Even in RBR you need to turn off Spring and Damper, if you want FFB from game.

That has not been my experience in dirt rally one, dirt 4 or this game. In grid 2 and previous codemaster games, I do believe it did work that way(as you suggest)  but those games took wheel input and then emulated gamepad stick input. I remember P. Coleman touting actual 900deg support for dirt rally along with the f1 that came out that year. Spring and Damper seems to attenuate and add granularity to the signal, and yes I saw several drivers doing this @racedepartmet for AC and project cars1&2 but I also had  a very fast friend once tell me the best way to race (in grid2) with your 300 dollar wheel is to turn ffb completely off...  some aliens/savants/anoraks don't need any effects to be fast but that's not why I play the dirt series. I have a hard time thinking a legacy setting as you might describe it would be enabled as a default by the wheel manufacturer. 

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41 minutes ago, Snakeye5 said:

I thought so too but after setting friction to the same value as SAT, I can vaguely feel road ruts and gravel vibration.

That's strange. Are you talking about Wheel Friction or Tire Friction? Could you post your complete settings (including config tool and XML changes, if any)?

Regarding Spring and Damper. I read somewhere in a forum where someone said that indeed, years ago, these parameters used to be unrelated to actual game FFB, but that has changed meanwhile, and now they are just factors you can use to adjust certain effects in the game if the game does not provide a slider for them. But that was just a user's opinion, and I could not find any definite source explaining how these work.

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