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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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Posted (edited)

SPRING:

A spring force is a force that increases according to how far you are from a specific position on the wheel. The basic spring force we could think of is a default spring center where the wheel goes back to its center position when you release it.

https://support.thrustmaster.com/en/kb/107-en/

 

It just a dumb spring (which doesn't exist in real life wheels)

 

Not sure about damper, some games are using damper for FFB (for example, Asseto Corsa). Only Dirt devs can answer this question.

Edited by virgism

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I basically understand what the individual forces do (even though the explanations given by Thrustmaster are badly written), but I don't fully understand the relation between these hardware parameters and the software parameters used in the game. For example, even though I have Spring set to 100 %, there is no "dumb spring" effect in the game as long as I don't enable self-centering force in the game (which I don't want though). So it seems like the hardware parameters do not have an in-game effect on their own, but are only used to balance certain in-game effects against each other. Which would mean that I can leave them all at 100 % and do all the adjustment in the game, right?

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On 4/10/2019 at 11:26 AM, Laserjones said:

That's strange. Are you talking about Wheel Friction or Tire Friction? Could you post your complete settings (including config tool and XML changes, if any)?

 

.XML edit ffb=2

-Wheel Driver-
Overall Strength = 75
Constant            = 100
Periodic              = 100
Spring                = 100       
Damper              = 100
auto center "by game"

-Advanced Settings-
Steering Linearity    = 0
Steering Deadzone  = 0
Steering Saturation = 100
-...(separate fanatic pedals are used so I have not included throttle brake and clutch)
Soft Lock                 On

-Vibration & Feedback-
Vibration & Feedback On
Self Aligning Torque (SAT)  = 28
Wheel Friction                  = 28
Tire Friction                      = 125
Suspension                       = 125
Collision                           =  80
SoftLock                           On
Steering Center Force Enabled On
Steering Center Force        = 50

 

11 hours ago, Laserjones said:

I basically understand what the individual forces do (even though the explanations given by Thrustmaster are badly written), but I don't fully understand the relation between these hardware parameters and the software parameters used in the game. For example, even though I have Spring set to 100 %, there is no "dumb spring" effect in the game as long as I don't enable self-centering force in the game (which I don't want though). So it seems like the hardware parameters do not have an in-game effect on their own, but are only used to balance certain in-game effects against each other. Which would mean that I can leave them all at 100 % and do all the adjustment in the game, right?

Exactly, it's more like a simple graphic EQ on a sound system that emphasizes certain ranges of the signal. and for consistency between games, I try not to change the TM control panel much, the reason those settings in the control panel are sliders is the fact that motor output decreases over time as they age, especially if they are overpowered a lot. once that happens it's necessary to customize the driver settings.

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Thanks a lot. I'll try these settings.

Why are you using Steering Center Force? As far as I understand, it does not exist on a real car. Wouldn't it interfere with SAT somehow?

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21 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Thanks a lot. I'll try these settings.

Why are you using Steering Center Force? As far as I understand, it does not exist on a real car. Wouldn't it interfere with SAT somehow?

I believe centre force is simply the steering wheel centering itself after a reset to track.

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2 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

I believe centre force is simply the steering wheel centering itself after a reset to track.

Hmm, if that was true, the actual force would not really be relevant, only the result (centering). Why would it be an adjustable slider then? I think I'll test it with all other sliders turned off to see what it actually does. But I won't have time for that before Easter due to my vacation.

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34 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Hmm, if that was true, the actual force would not really be relevant, only the result (centering). Why would it be an adjustable slider then? I think I'll test it with all other sliders turned off to see what it actually does. But I won't have time for that before Easter due to my vacation.

It's a good point. I thought the slider was just how hard the wheel centred itself, I'm sure I read in the description of a game, maybe dr1, that that was it's function. 

Be interested to find out though.

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3 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

I believe centre force is simply the steering wheel centering itself after a reset to track.

This is the case. Odd that it is adjustable I agree, but it does nothing more than adjust the strength of rotation back to center upon vehicle reset so you can get moving again that much more quickly in the event of a mishap.

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12 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

I believe centre force is simply the steering wheel centering itself after a reset to track.

Correct.

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It's adjustable because why shouldn't it be? Totally nothing odd about it.   Maybe you don't need 100% force to recenter your wheel all of a sudden, might be nice not to suddenly break a finger 😛 Or not to slam the wheel around un-necessarily.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, bn880 said:

It's adjustable because why shouldn't it be? Totally nothing odd about it.   Maybe you don't need 100% force to recenter your wheel all of a sudden, might be nice not to suddenly break a finger 😛 Or not to slam the wheel around un-necessarily.

I think the point is that many games just recenter the wheel automatically, or don't, no adjustment slider. It's not a bad thing to have, but it's also fairly unusual. It also has no in game tool tips to tell you precisely W T F it actually does.

You could equally ask why they made a superficial reset centering slider work but forgot to make critical sliders the for the actual on track FFB work. That IS totally odd.

Edited by JesseDeya

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

I think the point is that many games just recenter the wheel automatically, or don't, no adjustment slider. It's not a bad thing to have, but it's also fairly unusual. It also has no in game tool tips to tell you precisely W T F it actually does.

You could equally ask why they made a superficial reset centering slider work but forgot to make critical sliders the for the actual on track FFB work. That IS totally odd.

The game released far to early it's as simple as that. Right now it's a work in progress. Come 12 months time it will be like a finished title and when it should of been released and i guarantee the game will have good FFB and likely to be better than DR1.  

Edited by FLAW3D

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

The game released far to early it's as simple as that. Right now it's a work in progress. Come 12 months time it will be like a finished title and when it should of been released and i guarantee the game will have good FFB and likely to be better than DR1.  

It's is ludicrous that in 2019 we have a driving game from a renowned driving game developer with useless FFB, 6 weeks after release. Many people, including myself, paid for the version that got early access... completely wasted. If it's not fixed by patch 1.4 I can't see myself having any restraint.

 

Edited by SkiddyMcCrash
removed quoted link
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How should FFB really feel?  For 'my' real world comparison - I took my 2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R out this weekend - here are my thoughts:  The first thing I noticed is on pavement at very low speeds I could 'feel' the knobs on the tires through the wheel (kinda like the cow grates) ... this lessens as the speed increases.  On the trails I can absolutely 'feel' through the wheel the difference between driving on sand -vs- gravel -vs- pavement -vs- hard packed clay.  I could tell you what surface I'm driving on with a blindfold on.  Same thing with ruts - they will pull the wheel depending on their depth and the speed at which you hit them - and when you hit a big one you know it!  

Dirt Rally 2.0 has literally ZERO feedback from the surface you are driving on. 

 

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Just now, Hub67 said:

How should FFB really feel?  For 'my' real world comparison - I took my 2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R out this weekend - here are my thoughts:  The first thing I noticed is on pavement at very low speeds I could 'feel' the knobs on the tires through the wheel (kinda like the cow grates) ... this lessens as the speed increases.  On the trails I can absolutely 'feel' through the wheel the difference between driving on sand -vs- gravel -vs- pavement -vs- hard packed clay.  I could tell you what surface I'm driving on with a blindfold on.  Same thing with ruts - they will pull the wheel depending on their depth and the speed at which you hit them - and when you hit a big one you know it!  

Dirt Rally 2.0 has literally ZERO feedback from the surface you are driving on. 

 

Yes. We are in wild agreement.

I have a 1970s corvette (Stingray) that I drive to work almost daily. I can also feel ever bump, dip and road camber change through the wheel. I have been actively concentrating on it lately and it's so obvious and so intrinsic that if it felt like DR 2.0 did now I would pull over in alarm and make sure my steering column hadn't sheered. Underlying all that is the engine vibration, (Chevy 350 V8) which I can also feel through the wheel even at idle. Sure, it is not a rally spec car nor do I drive it on dirt or gravel roads, but most of the rally cars in that era weren't spec either. At the very least, what I feel through the wheel from my 1970s car on regular roads shouldn't exceed what I feel from a rally game on some of the most brutal tracks in the world.

On a side note, my 2014 Land Rover Discovery also transmits significantly more through the wheel than Dirt Rally 2.0 (ie: something > nothing). I can't feel engine vibration like the Corvette, but I can DEFINITELY feel bumps in the (sealed) road, literally every bump big enough to spot with the naked eye can also be felt through the wheel, and this is through a 3 tonne FWD designed to absorb bumps and be one of the worlds best 4WD cars. 

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4 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

 They are bought outside of the region they are being sold in, for much much cheaper, and "imported" into the more expensive regions and sold against the ToS for well under market value. 

Which only proves how companies use the regional markets to exploit consumers. Are you actually defending anti-consumer practises??? We live in a global market, adapt.

Why is this even a problem for you? You're literally the biggest and most vocal CM apologist on this forum, I'm starting to question you motives. Be honest did you buy stocks of CM IPO?

 

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In my 2015 seat Ibiza I cannot feel every bump through the wheel. I can through my body though (suspension through chassis etc) 

Wheels in modern rally cars are generally very light (in my limited experience) however there's obviously tons of feeling from the road through the seat.

I can only imagine Jon's experience in an R5 was the basis of the ffb. But definitely some seat sensation would be welcome, simulated through the wheel.

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36 minutes ago, Hub67 said:

How should FFB really feel?  For 'my' real world comparison - I took my 2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R out this weekend - here are my thoughts:  The first thing I noticed is on pavement at very low speeds I could 'feel' the knobs on the tires through the wheel (kinda like the cow grates) ... this lessens as the speed increases.  On the trails I can absolutely 'feel' through the wheel the difference between driving on sand -vs- gravel -vs- pavement -vs- hard packed clay.  I could tell you what surface I'm driving on with a blindfold on.  Same thing with ruts - they will pull the wheel depending on their depth and the speed at which you hit them - and when you hit a big one you know it!  

Dirt Rally 2.0 has literally ZERO feedback from the surface you are driving on. 

 

2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R - To say im a little jealous is an understatement! 

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Just now, Rallystu2 said:

In my 2015 seat Ibiza I cannot feel every bump through the wheel. I can through my body though (suspension through chassis etc) 

Wheels in modern rally cars are generally very light (in my limited experience) however there's obviously tons of feeling from the road through the seat.

I can only imagine Jon's experience in an R5 was the basis of the ffb. But definitely some seat sensation would be welcome, simulated through the wheel.

Absolute rubbish. The feeling you get through your body's proprioceptors and/or inner ear may overwhelm what you notice through the wheel, but I guarantee your wheel is reacting and moving to bumps, lumps and dips on the road. Actually concentrate on it the next time you drive and I'll bet you realise how much you're overlooking.

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10 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Which only proves how companies use the regional markets to exploit consumers. Are you actually defending anti-consumer practises??? We live in a global market, adapt.

Why is this even a problem for you? You're literally the biggest and most vocal CM apologist on this forum, I'm starting to question you motives. Be honest did you buy stocks of CM IPO?

Nevermind, I think you answered my question.

Do you literally have no concept of how markets or purchasing power works? Codies can't charge $60USD for a game in a region where the average monthly income is the equivalent of $500USD. They have no choice but to adjust for regional market if they want any chance to deliver a new product to the people in these areas. This is a common trend in any industry.

So they charge an equivalent price based off purchasing power, but when that makes the game the equivalent of $26USD you end up with asshats like the ****** site linked above who go in and buy a bunch of underpriced keys either online or through a proxy. They then resell them to the normal markets where the game retails for $60, and they undercut market price. The entire reason those keys were sold so cheap was because they are explicitly limited to the region and contain verbiage to address this exact issue. 

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4 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Absolute rubbish. The feeling you get through your body's proprioceptors and/or inner ear may overwhelm what you notice through the wheel, but I guarantee your wheel is reacting and moving to bumps, lumps and dips on the road. Actually concentrate on it the next time you drive and I'll bet you realise how much you're overlooking.

Not rubbish at all. I've checked. Your attitude, and narcissism is grating. No need to respond in the way you do.

I drive on gravel, I drive on tarmac. I've checked what is actually transferred through my wheel. And it does not align with your experience, that is all.

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3 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

Do you literally have no concept of how markets or purchasing power works?

Oh but I do. And I when it comes to internet based digital acquisition my purchasing power as a global citizen is signifcantly increased.

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4 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Absolute rubbish. The feeling you get through your body's proprioceptors and/or inner ear may overwhelm what you notice through the wheel, but I guarantee your wheel is reacting and moving to bumps, lumps and dips on the road. Actually concentrate on it the next time you drive and I'll bet you realise how much you're overlooking.

Some cars are setup totally devoid of feeling though especially little city cars like Ibizas where the wheel is made as light as possible with zero feeling for ease of use. Is Stu's car a Rally or Road car? 

Also what alot of people seem to forget is what alot of us are looking for is the FX of not being sat in a real car to come through, ie, Seat of Pants effect / Shift effect etc etc
 

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5 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

Not rubbish at all. I've checked. Your attitude, and narcissism is grating. No need to respond in the way you do.

I drive on gravel, I drive on tarmac. I've checked what is actually transferred through my wheel. And it does not align with your experience, that is all.

Ok then, I guess we are at an impasse. I genuinely don't think I am being narcissistic about this, and I am happy to be proven wrong. I do however find it hard to accept your version of reality, maybe in the southern hemisphere we have more feeling in our fingertips? Lol?

I fly aircraft for a living, so perhaps I have a heightened sense of what my control surfaces are doing, but honestly I doubt it - I think everyone can feel what I feel as they drive down the road, just most people are oblivious to it as you seem to be.

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2 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Ok then, I guess we are at an impasse. I genuinely don't think I am being narcissistic about this, and I am happy to be proven wrong. I do however find it hard to accept your version of reality, maybe in the southern hemisphere we have more feeling in our fingertips? Lol?

I fly aircraft for a living, so perhaps I have a heightened sense of what my control surfaces are doing, but honestly I doubt it - I think everyone can feel what I feel as they drive down the road, just most people are oblivious to it as you seem to be.

The impression you put out, in as far as every recent post of yours that I have read, gives off a pea-soup-thick odour of narcissism. The condescending language and relentless pursuit of a weird, contrived sense of inflated superiority are incredibly off-putting.

Not to say that your opinions are invalid. But the way you voice them is just awful. 

My experience of modern steering (due to modern shock absorbtion) is that almost everything transferred through a vehicle with electronically assisted power steering is related to wheel direction, sat I guess.

The suspension bumps and vibrations that I experience (both on roads, and on Welsh gravel) come through the car, not the steering column.

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