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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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1 minute ago, Mike Dee said:

The keys are sold by the local vendors under the explicit agreement that they are to be sold (not for resale) within the region. You can try and exploit ****** practices all you want and undercut developers who are trying to literally just do good by their players, but it doesn't change the fact it is a ****** practice and deceptive while breaking most vendor agreements. This isn't limited to Codies, every single major game/software/publishing/etc company uses these same vendor relation agreements.

And I'm not going waste my time or energy addressing scarecrow ad-hom attacks. Go back to driving your Stingray and Land Rover, I'm sure you can afford to pay the full price for the game.

Your facts aren't facts just because you say they are. Show me the explicit agreements to which you refer. Show me the vendor relation agreements (is that even a thing?). Or, as I suspect, are you just making all this **** up because it suits your narrative?

PS: Yes I can afford to pay full price, W T F does that have to do with the discussion at hand? It certainly doesn't excuse the vendor from their obligations to deliver a product in the specification advertised.

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10 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Some cars are setup totally devoid of feeling though especially little city cars like Ibizas where the wheel is made as light as possible with zero feeling for ease of use. Is Stu's car a Rally or Road car? 

Also what alot of people seem to forget is what alot of us are looking for is the FX of not being sat in a real car to come through, ie, Seat of Pants effect / Shift effect etc etc
 

Well that's my point. And my Ibiza is a road car. With electronically assisted power steering. However competition cars have intelligent shock absorption now too, otherwise you'd be fighting the wheel no end. What you notice in a rally car is just how light everything is.

But you're absolutely right that we aren't in real cars and thus require the seat sensation being translated through the wheel.

A 1970s sports car with a straight steering rod and no modern shock absorption is a different matter entirely.

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Just now, Rallystu2 said:

The impression you put out, in as far as every recent post of yours that I have read, gives off a pea-soup-thick odour of narcissism. The condescending language and relentless pursuit of a weird, contrived sense of inflated superiority are incredibly off-putting.

Not to say that your opinions are invalid. But the way you voice them is just awful. 

My experience of modern steering (due to modern shock absorbtion) is that almost everything transferred through a vehicle with electronically assisted power steering is related to wheel direction, sat I guess.

The suspension bumps and vibrations that I experience (both on roads, and on Welsh gravel) come through the car, not the steering column.

You chose to read my contributions that way because you and your clan have already pre-judged me. I see you and your merry men for who you are, and I don't dislike you - I just don't understand why you can't engage in open and HONEST discussion about DR 2.0. You all have an extremely defensive attitude to the game, which seems to be tied to your obvious emotional investment in the title. I get it, you started a Discord and you sometimes have two CM employees throw you some words, so now you feel you can't say a bad word about the game.

The rest of us haven't sold out, we can say what we want. If you interpret that as narcissism so be it, it's not.

I honestly don't know what to say about your steering wheel experiences, I'm willing to bet most people don't either.

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3 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

Well that's my point. And my Ibiza is a road car. With electronically assisted power steering. However competition cars have intelligent shock absorption now too, otherwise you'd be fighting the wheel no end. What you notice in a rally car is just how light everything is.

But you're absolutely right that we aren't in real cars and thus require the seat sensation being translated through the wheel.

A 1970s sports car with a straight steering rod and no modern shock absorption is a different matter entirely.

Yep, Which again goes back to Codies need to make the FFB car specific not a 1 size fits all. 

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2 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Yep, Which again goes back to Codies need to make the FFB car specific not a 1 size fits all. 

I couldn't agree more. It'd be great to have a different model for cars without power steering etc

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Just now, Rallystu2 said:

I couldn't agree more. It'd be great to have a different model for cars without power steering etc

I think we agree on something!! 🙂

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FFB sucks.  I didn't get what I paid for.  I'm not playing the game anymore.  I want my $83 back.  

 

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Removed link and reported to moderators, hate this kind of ****.
This should be chatting about game, not starting world war III 😲

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I’ve just spent 30 minutes Łuhinking about how people here keep taking about feeling the road (tarmac, gravel, bumps, dips etc) through the chassis and seat but not the wheel, like they are somehow unrelated.

Y’all know the only way you feel anything through the chassis or your seat is if it come through the four wheels connected to the ground. Two of those four wheels are connected to the steering column and therefore your wheel. 

Science. 

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But the shock absorbers dilute that energy, and the forces are transferred through the steering column in a more linear fashion, and the steering columns themselves, through power steering systems absorb yet more of the shock.

If you watch rally onboard you can see just how light the wheels are. Again, that's not to say that we don't need more feeling, just that your science is a little 'cherry picked'

Dunno

 About you but the above video looks at times like he's driving on glass.

You can see that his body is being shaken around by the terrain translating info through he suspension, but this isn't reflected through the steering. Particularly not 1/1 as you appear to suggest.

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51 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

But the shock absorbers dilute that energy, and the forces are transferred through the steering column in a more linear fashion, and the steering columns themselves, through power steering systems absorb yet more of the shock.

If you watch rally onboard you can see just how light the wheels are. Again, that's not to say that we don't need more feeling, just that your science is a little 'cherry picked'

Dunno

 About you but the above video looks at times like he's driving on glass.

You can see that his body is being shaken around by the terrain translating info through he suspension, but this isn't reflected through the steering. Particularly not 1/1 as you appear to suggest.

After watching that my driving style is more like Driving Miss Daisy 🤣

It looks and sounds so brutal compared to Dirt Rally. The amount he cuts the corners you would be in a constantly in the air flipping in the game. Ha 

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1 hour ago, Rallystu2 said:

But the shock absorbers dilute that energy, and the forces are transferred through the steering column in a more linear fashion, and the steering columns themselves, through power steering systems absorb yet more of the shock.

If you watch rally onboard you can see just how light the wheels are. Again, that's not to say that we don't need more feeling, just that your science is a little 'cherry picked'

Dunno

 About you but the above video looks at times like he's driving on glass.

You can see that his body is being shaken around by the terrain translating info through he suspension, but this isn't reflected through the steering. Particularly not 1/1 as you appear to suggest.

I can assure you he can feel the road through the wheel!  I don't 'know' this from watching a video - I know it from driving an off-road vehicle.  If you missed my earlier post I'll copy it below here.  

How should FFB really feel?  For 'my' real world comparison - I took my 2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R out this weekend - here are my thoughts:  The first thing I noticed is on pavement at very low speeds I could 'feel' the knobs on the tires through the wheel (kinda like the cow grates) ... this lessens as the speed increases.  On the trails I can absolutely 'feel' through the wheel the difference between driving on sand -vs- gravel -vs- pavement -vs- hard packed clay.  I could tell you what surface I'm driving on with a blindfold on.  Same thing with ruts - they will pull the wheel depending on their depth and the speed at which you hit them - and when you hit a big one you know it!  

Dirt Rally 2.0 has literally ZERO feedback from the surface you are driving on. 

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Any argument to your post will only be from a place of extreme jealousy. That Yamaha looks like a lot of fun.

I can only comment from a stand point of my experiences in various vehicles, on various surfaces, and at various speeds. I've never driven an SxS unfortunately but I'm sure your description is bang on. I can only use the above video to demonstrate the relative ease at which the wheel is operated in comparison to the beating that he is taking through the seat.

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3 hours ago, SimFunny said:

Removed link and reported to moderators

Removed post and all comments with the link or about the link.

 

3 hours ago, SimFunny said:

This should be chatting about game, not starting world war III

Agreed. Either take your arguements to private messages or agree to disagree and move on

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What about playing psychiatrist by making diagnoses of other forum members, like narcissism (few post above).
That don´t brake forum rules?

Hope to get FFB patch soon so this group calm down :classic_wink:

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I can definitely feel road vibrations and bumps through the wheel of my real car (on ordinary tarmac), I checked this multiple times. But no matter how much comes through the wheel and how much through the seat: If we feel cattle grids in the game, we should also feel other surfaces equally well. But we don't. It's like a gap in the implementation.

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10 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

But the shock absorbers dilute that energy, and the forces are transferred through the steering column in a more linear fashion, and the steering columns themselves, through power steering systems absorb yet more of the shock.

If you watch rally onboard you can see just how light the wheels are. Again, that's not to say that we don't need more feeling, just that your science is a little 'cherry picked'

Dunno

 About you but the above video looks at times like he's driving on glass.

You can see that his body is being shaken around by the terrain translating info through he suspension, but this isn't reflected through the steering. Particularly not 1/1 as you appear to suggest.

This is pretty unrepresentative as certain stages in wales where this stage is are smoother than a tarmac road, having done events many many times on these stages they are extremely rare and dont represent gravel stages as a whole.

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3 hours ago, Laserjones said:

If we feel cattle grids in the game, we should also feel other surfaces equally well. But we don't. It's like a gap in the implementation.

It really is that simple.

We’ve waisted so much time trying to justify what is such an obvious lack of detail. 

You can always feel a rough road surface through a steering wheel, to suggest otherwise is fantasy. Modern systems certainly dampen the sensation, but it’s never completely absent as portrayed by DR 2.0. For the older cars it should actually be quite aggressive. 

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4 hours ago, doyaneedthis said:

This is pretty unrepresentative as certain stages in wales where this stage is are smoother than a tarmac road, having done events many many times on these stages they are extremely rare and dont represent gravel stages as a whole.

I don't think it's unrepresentative. That's typical Wales as far as I'm concerned. Maybe without the quarry gravel low speed corners. I've got a video from Mexico here as Well. But the point is simply that suspension through the seat is a very different amplified feedback compared to steering.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rallystu2 said:

I don't think it's unrepresentative. That's typical Wales as far as I'm concerned. Maybe without the quarry gravel low speed corners. I've got a video from Mexico here as Well. But the point is simply that suspension through the seat is a very different amplified feedback compared to steering.

 

 

On 80mm Reigar suspension yes it soaks up everything also when i said rare i didnt mean rare in wales i meant to gravel stages worldwide as a whole.

Also Las Minas is probably the widest and smoothest stage in all of Mexico 🙂

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1 hour ago, Rallystu2 said:

I don't think it's unrepresentative. That's typical Wales as far as I'm concerned. Maybe without the quarry gravel low speed corners. I've got a video from Mexico here as Well. But the point is simply that suspension through the seat is a very different amplified feedback compared to steering.

 

 

I'm quite confused what you're trying to demonstrate with these videos Stu, they certainly show how little turning resistance (lightness) you can achieve in a wheel with a race quality power steering unit - but that isn't what anyone is complaining about.

What people have noted is missing from DR 2.0 is the feeling of the road surface that typically manifests as movements of the steering wheel in response to where your front wheels are being forced to point. On a flat dirt road these are merely vibrations, small or micro, and something you're never going to see in a YouTube video. This is currently missing from DR 2.0.

As you hit larger deviations in the surface such as ruts and bumps, or you traverse rapidly varying road cambers your front wheels are going to be displaced far more and that forced movement of the steering wheel will be much more pronounced. This so weak in DR 2.0 that people either assumed it was missing or had to edit the XML to increase the overall magnitude of forces by several factors just to feel anything resembling these forces. So without tweaks, this is also currently missing from DR 2.0.

In the video above it is obvious how well modern systems do in dampening the smaller movements (and keeping the front wheels pointed where the driver wants them) although it is still hard to tell what the driver feels that can't be captured in footage. It's also quite obvious to see where the driver feels additional weight come on the wheel (as the front wheels desired direction is being resisted by the road surface) and he puts in additional steering input to correct. The McRae video shows this far better - being an older car - and the constant sawing corrections are Colin responding to all his senses - visual, inner ear, and proprioceptors all over his body... including in his hands! This nuance is currently completely missing in DR 2.0.

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40 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

I'm quite confused what you're trying to demonstrate with these videos Stu, they certainly show how little turning resistance (lightness) you can achieve in a wheel with a race quality power steering unit - but that isn't what anyone is complaining about.

What people have noted is missing from DR 2.0 is the feeling of the road surface that typically manifests as movements of the steering wheel in response to where your front wheels are being forced to point. On a flat dirt road these are merely vibrations, small or micro, and something you're never going to see in a YouTube video. This is currently missing from DR 2.0.

As you hit larger deviations in the surface such as ruts and bumps, or you traverse rapidly varying road cambers your front wheels are going to be displaced far more and that forced movement of the steering wheel will be much more pronounced. This so weak in DR 2.0 that people either assumed it was missing or had to edit the XML to increase the overall magnitude of forces by several factors just to feel anything resembling these forces. So without tweaks, this is also currently missing from DR 2.0.

In the video above it is obvious how well modern systems do in dampening the smaller movements (and keeping the front wheels pointed where the driver wants them) although it is still hard to tell what the driver feels that can't be captured in footage. It's also quite obvious to see where the driver feels additional weight come on the wheel (as the front wheels desired direction is being resisted by the road surface) and he puts in additional steering input to correct. The McRae video shows this far better - being an older car - and the constant sawing corrections are Colin responding to all his senses - visual, inner ear, and proprioceptors all over his body... including in his hands! This nuance is currently completely missing in DR 2.0.

I agree completely. It was merely an exercise in demonstrating the difference between feeling through the seat, and feeling through the wheel.

 

*not completely agree, but to a fair extent. I think the sawing is to keep the car poised as opposed to fighting bumps. It seems similar to my driving inputs in dr2, I might try and record a video. AND YES, I AM JUST LIKE McRAE!

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54 minutes ago, doyaneedthis said:

On 80mm Reigar suspension yes it soaks up everything also when i said rare i didnt mean rare in wales i meant to gravel stages worldwide as a whole.

Also Las Minas is probably the widest and smoothest stage in all of Mexico 🙂

Sorry, I misunderstood you. And I just just picked a random mexican gravel stage, there's no super smooth conspiracy here, I promise. lol!

 

 

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Think we all agree here more or less. Vibration and road feel are not confined to a single point of experience. The chassis, suspension, wheel, seat etc. all play a role in transmitting info. I guess as it pertains to the wheel and FFB in this application, we just want to sense (as much as possible without falsifying it too much), meaningful feedback about what the car is doing, or the surface it’s on. As it stands, road conditions don’t seem to have any impact on the wheel dynamics. A lot of the forces you feel and ultimately use to dictate your steering input are just missing. Modern cars undoubtedly soak up a lot of smaller road textures, but there is still information being relayed to the driver about the suspension geometry, and surface texture.

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