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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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18 minutes ago, richie said:

I'm using 65 SAT and 130 or 135 suspension btw, if you want to try these settings. I can feel little stones and bumps in the surface, most noticeable at Australia. 

Well, I'm not feeling any little stones and bumps (nor anything else, except cattle grids and – occasional – bigger bumps) with these settings in Australia. As long as I only drive straight ahead at low speed, I feel nothing at all. So it seems like some of the disagreement is caused by different wheels being differently affected by the problem (Thrustmaster T150 in my case).

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3 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

So it seems like some of the disagreement is caused by different wheels being differently affected by the problem (Thrustmaster T150 in my case).

That could be a factor indeed. Hardware is generally a big factor in simracing/rallying, especially on the PC side of things. 

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50 minutes ago, richie said:

Honestly, it's an irrelevant 'discussion' and only distracting, plus I'm too lazy to present the 'evidence' here. Pretty sure, if you use the search function you should be able to find more than 5 statements. People like to use hyperbole to express things, I use it too, but in order to improve a game you need serious and precise information. Ranting and insulting devs will get people nowhere. 

Then STOP using hyperbole. The details have been expressed, precisely. Maybe if you weren't so lazy you could use the search function and discover it for yourself. FWIW, ranting and insulting devs does sometimes work, but in this instance that's not what is happening. Again, enough with the hyperbole.

Quote

While the FFB detail could be better I think it isn't that bad at all. That's basically what quite a few people that are 'defending' the FFB are saying. I'm using 65 SAT and 130 or 135 suspension btw, if you want to try these settings. I can feel little stones and bumps in the surface, most noticeable at Australia. If you decided not to play I think you're missing out on a great game. Despite the things you can criticise, I'm having an absolute blast.

Good for you, I'm glad you think you can feel little stones and bumps - you're out of your mind, because you can't - but why are you even in this thread if you're completely happy?

EDIT: It's not hardware related. I have a T300 and Fantatec CSL Elite, with DR on PC and PS4 Pro (the latter I borrowed a disc just to check!), the experience is the same regardless of platform or hardware.

Edited by JesseDeya
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There we go again. Can you show me the line where I said 'I'm completely happy'? You can't. Not sure if you actually read what people write. I don't think I only think I can feel these things. Maybe you should play the game and try the settings? Why shouldn't you feel things better through the suspension if you ramp up FBB settings? 

I'm in this thread because you were fabricating something that isn't there, and because you were denying things that are/were clearly there. 

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1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

Then STOP using hyperbole. The details have been expressed, precisely. Maybe if you weren't so lazy you could use the search function and discover it for yourself. FWIW, ranting and insulting devs does sometimes work, but in this instance that's not what is happening. Again, enough with the hyperbole.

Good for you, I'm glad you think you can feel little stones and bumps - you're out of your mind, because you can't - but why are you even in this thread if you're completely happy?

EDIT: It's not hardware related. I have a T300 and Fantatec CSL Elite, with DR on PC and PS4 Pro (the latter I borrowed a disc just to check!), the experience is the same regardless of platform or hardware.

Waiting for ffb fix, been playing with controller for a while and liking the game. 

Cannot use wheel due to lack of detail, spoils the immersion. 

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12 minutes ago, richie said:

There we go again. Can you show me the line where I said 'I'm completely happy'? You can't. Not sure if you actually read what people write.

You're in this thread to try and discredit the majority of people who have a fair and demonstrable claim for acceptable FFB. You are not one of those people, you have no purpose here other than trolling.

1 hour ago, richie said:

While the FFB detail could be better I think it isn't that bad at all.

See. You said it yourself less than an hour ago.

 

Edited by JesseDeya
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2 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

Ok @richie let's discuss this.

1) "FFB's non-existent" and "game's unplayable" are two different things.

2) The game can be "unplayable", subjectively, for a number of reasons. Something doesn't have to be completely broken for people to find the game unplayable. I hate the current FFB implementation, I don't want to play the game (that I paid for, deluxe edition) with the current FFB. Therefore, for me, the game is unplayable (until they fix it). Other people can't stand the crazy AI times that make career mode fustrating beyond belief, others can't stand the lighting inconsistencies that sometimes make stages undriveable, other's can't stand the blurry graphics they have on their console etc. Technically you can plow through these failings and 'play' the game, but to what end?

3) Show me 5 people that have said the FFB is non-existent. I will wait.

I don't have beef with @Rallystu2, he and I both want the game to be awesome. For some reason however he has been trying to downplay the FFB issue for months... I don't know why, the data is overwhelming, people hate the current FFB. He would be better served to lobby with us and get it fixed that keep offering this limp resistance.

EDIT: I realise reading it back that my post(s) my seem like an aggressive retort. Believe me, it's not aggression or anger, just plain old frustration. I have an amazing sim rig that I would love to be using for DR 2.0 right now and I can't because it feels like wet poop. *the game, not my sim rig. Unless my toddler daughter has got in there before me.

Yea to be fair I've been consistent across the board, you confuse me as to your efforts of smear this time.

And again, I'm not downplaying. Just correcting nonsense with fact, and whilst I'm flattered you insist on searching through all of my posts (even if it is a tad stalker-ish) I don't think your unusual and slightly weird methods have shown me to be any kind of fraud as you seem to have been attempting to, or at least implying.

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Yes, I'm here just to troll and try to discredit all those people who want to have an honest and differentiated discussion. smh:

So let me get things straight: The guy who likes to fabricate things that aren't there and who denies things that clearly happened accuses other people of trolling. Alright.

Edited by richie
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6 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

And again, I'm not downplaying. Just correcting nonsense with fact,

And again, I'm not overplaying. Just correcting nonsense with fact.

You say most people just want "additional effects" as if it's a nicety, but the comments and polls don't reflect that. The majority of people who have issues with the FFB want it fixed as soon as possible, preferably (overwhelmingly) in the very next patch. If I were the only voice asking for this here I would have shut-up a long time ago.

6 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

and whilst I'm flattered you insist on searching through all of my posts (even if it is a tad stalker-ish) I don't think your unusual and slightly weird methods have shown me to be any kind of fraud as you seem to have been attempting to, or at least implying.

Don't be flattered, search functions are easy and it took about 2 minutes. Not saying you're a fraud, but you've also proven you won't be critical of Codemasters so you temper every comment with with a qualifier. You were only close to honest on release day, everything since then has been carefully measured.

6 hours ago, richie said:

Yes, I'm here just to troll and try to discredit all those people who want to have an honest and differentiated discussion. smh:

So let me get things straight: The guy who likes to fabricate things that aren't there and who denies things that clearly happened accuses other people of trolling. Alright.

You are the very definition of a troll.

You have made nine posts in this thread, seven of them have been replies to me that had NOTHING to do with FFB topic, one was you saying you were too lazy to comment about FFB and the ninth was a misinformed attempt at trying to blame hardware for a software issue.

I'll ask you too, what has been fabricated? What are these "things that clearly happened" that have been denied?

I'm all for "honest and differentiated discussion", but maybe you should take baby steps and start with honest, then we can put on our big boy pants.

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1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

And again, I'm not overplaying. Just correcting nonsense with fact.

Which is the basis of maybe 90 % of useless posts on the Internet – violently defending one's own notion of what is "fact" and what is "nonsense". If everyone would stop that here and simple provide useful data instead of personally attacking others, this thread would really be useful.

1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

You are the very definition of a troll.

Said the one whose posts are full of attacks against others, disguised as defense of "facts". While I fully agree with you that FFB is severely broken, it's simply useless to fight other people just because they disagree, and to effectively call them liars just because their experience differs from yours. Why not try to understand why they feel differently, in order to find out more about the actual nature of the FFB issues?

Please don't attempt to prove me wrong. Believe what you want. I won't enter into another useless discussion. I just want everyone to think about their own words and their usefulness for the actual purpose of this thread.

(And this goes out to everyone here who is personally attacking others, not just the one I quoted.)

Edited by Laserjones

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16 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

FWIW, ranting and insulting devs does sometimes work

It doesn't work here, it stops the devs from communicating with the forum as they don't want to make promises that they can't keep to prevent the inevitable wave of rage and anger posts from the people who do think that ranting and insults work.

 

17 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

I don't have beef with @Rallystu2, he and I both want the game to be awesome. For some reason however he has been trying to downplay the FFB issue for months... I don't know why, the data is overwhelming, people hate the current FFB. He would be better served to lobby with us and get it fixed that keep offering this limp resistance.

EDIT: I realise reading it back that my post(s) my seem like an aggressive retort. Believe me, it's not aggression or anger, just plain old frustration. .

Then stop posting while you're frustrated, simples. You're the one harming your own case, not Stu or Richie. In some threads people are claiming the FFB makes the game unplayable, and like you said, unplayable means different things to different people. You think the FFB makes it unplayable, they don't, agree to disagree and move on.

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17 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

Just wanted to point out that technically editing the xml files is breaking the EULA and could result in a revocation of your license. Unless CM wants to let us know that's ok.... ???

Technically using modded skins is breaking the EULA and could result in a revocation of your license.

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I think we should just all agree to disagree by this point, we all agree with Codemasters wanting to change the FFB. There's just difference of opinions on how it's implemented as of current.

I personally have a mixture of opinion, I really do want the FFB change but I don't mind having to use the concurrent FFB in the meantime. I'd also like Codemasters to be more transparent with the FFB (whenever they're ready to talk about it)

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I think expectations play a bigger role than actual hardware. I'm on t150, which is considered an entry level wheel for sim racing, and I'm fine with the ffb in D2.0. Sure I'd like some more road feedback, but I can adapt no problem. I just played a bit of Project Cars 2, GT Sport and then Dirt 2.0 and I did not have thoughts like "wow, this ffb is lame in comparison". Just different. 
Maybe I just have low expectations. ;]

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This is dragging on far to long now. Is there issues that the FFB cannot be changed? Are they having to start from scratch? Whats going on Codies?

 

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8 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

This is dragging on far to long now. Is there issues that the FFB cannot be changed? Are they having to start from scratch? Whats going on Codies?

 

What's going on is that the ffb isn't broken, is it? The problem is that some people are not able to, or don't want to, accept the missing canned gravel texture effect. The force feedback itself is actually better in every way than it was in DR1, especially in terms of communicating weight transfer, which was completely missing in the first dirt rally. 

Now, I'm sure that the fake, canned gravel texture effect was removed from the DR2 by design. It's not a case of some guy's finger slipping and deleting all the code that creates the canned texture effect just before the game went gold. 

My guess is that they have made their decision are not willing to go back on it. However, if you guys want that effect so badly I'd suggest opening another thread requesting it, instead of insinuating that the ffb is broken and is in dire need of fixing. That sort of thing is unlikely to go down well with the devs, nor is it likely to give you guys any credibility as ffb connoseurs. 

There it is. I've opened a codemasters account just to say all that. 

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28 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

What's going on is that the ffb isn't broken, is it? The problem is that some people are not able to, or don't want to, accept the missing canned gravel texture effect. The force feedback itself is actually better in every way than it was in DR1, especially in terms of communicating weight transfer, which was completely missing in the first dirt rally. 

Now, I'm sure that the fake, canned gravel texture effect was removed from the DR2 by design. It's not a case of some guy's finger slipping and deleting all the code that creates the canned texture effect just before the game went gold. 

My guess is that they have made their decision are not willing to go back on it. However, if you guys want that effect so badly I'd suggest opening another thread requesting it, instead of insinuating that the ffb is broken and is in dire need of fixing. That sort of thing is unlikely to go down well with the devs, nor is it likely to give you guys any credibility as ffb connoseurs. 

There it is. I've opened a codemasters account just to say all that. 

I don't think anyone can make sweeping statements for all here as it doesn't seem everyone is having the same experience.  What gives your opinion any more weight than the large number of people that have expressed otherwise? 

The FFB is definitely not ok at least not for me (PS4pro/G29).  And this is in comparison to just about every other sim racing game I have. 

I've managed to get some feeling into my wheel by turning the SAT way down and the other effects all the way up.  So now I can feel bumps and the road ever so slightly.  But because the SAT is so low the whole experience feels loose as a goose.  It doesn't reflect reality in any way (I'm no pro rally driver but have driven competitively).  Because I have other effects all the way up my wheel just about shakes loose when going over a cattle grid now.  But, I have hope that things can be improved because the feeling is there, it's just stupidly weak/loose.

So my view is, the FFB is there, but it's implemented poorly to give inconsistent results across multiple pieces of hardware.  As a Quality Manager for a software development company that makes high end simulation software, this is definitely a software failing which has to sit at the feet of Codies.  I can understand why such a fix would take time.  I can also understand that Codies won't say exactly why the issue is as it is, until they have a handle on how to properly fix it.  And when bugs surface inconsistently across multiple hardware devices, it ain't easy.

This by no means is a pass for codies though.  All this should have been sorted prior to release.  

Edited by Ferrethead81
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21 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Now, I'm sure that the fake, canned gravel texture effect was removed from the DR2 by design. It's not a case of some guy's finger slipping and deleting all the code that creates the canned texture effect just before the game went gold.

Sigh ... It has been explained multiple times in this thread that this canned effect is not a "fake" effect, but an essential part of FFB, because "real" (physics-based) FFB cannot currently deliver full road surface feedback, because the surface details (gravel stones) are simply not modeled in 3D, but only drawn as a 2D texture. If they removed it by design (which I can't imagine), they actually removed the floor from the house. There's no other FFB effect that can consistently tell you what ground you are driving on and whether your wheels are still touching the ground at all. Considering this effect dispensable is beyond my comprehension. I tend to believe that the effect is actually built in and can be felt with some hardware configurations (some users claimed that they can feel it), but not all. Besides, if Codemasters had wanted to remove it on purpose, why did they leave the canned cattle grid effect in the game?

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5 minutes ago, Ferrethead81 said:

I don't think anyone can make sweeping statements for all here as it doesn't seem everyone is having the same experience.  What gives your opinion any more weight than the large number of people that have expressed otherwise? 

The FFB is definitely not ok at least not for me (PS4pro/G29).  And this is in comparison to just about every other sim racing game I have. 

I've managed to get some feeling into my wheel by turning the SAT way down and the other effects all the way up.  So now I can feel bumps and the road ever so slightly.  But because the SAT is so low the whole experience feels loose as a goose.  It doesn't reflect reality in any way (I'm no pro rally driver but have driven competitively).  Because I have other effects all the way up my wheel just about shakes loose when going over a cattle grid now.  But, I have hope that things can be improved because the feeling is there, it's just stupidly weak/loose.

So my view is, the FFB is there, but it's implemented poorly to give inconsistent results across multiple pieces of hardware.  As a Quality Manager for a software development company that makes high end simulation software, this is definitely a software failing which has to sit at the feet of Codies.  I can understand why such a fix would take time.  I can also understand that Codies won't say exactly why the issue is as it is, until they have a handle on how to properly fix it.  And when bugs surface inconsistently across multiple hardware devices, it ain't easy.

This by no means is a pass for codies though.  All this should have been sorted prior to release.  

The ffb works as intended on the ps4 pro with both the g29 and t300 (it's what I use). 

 

The issue is about the missing canned gravel texture effect. Please don't try to suggest it's not.

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1 minute ago, CalvinCar said:

The issue is about the missing canned gravel texture effect. Please don't try to suggest it's not.

Most people never claimed anything else than this. The lack of road texture feedback is the main (if not the only) problem. The point is that you seem to believe that it's not actually part of FFB. But it is an essential part of it, as explained above. "Canned" or not does not matter. What matters is the completeness of information provided by the wheel.

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3 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Sigh ... It has been explained multiple times in this thread that this canned effect is not a "fake" effect, but an essential part of FFB, because "real" (physics-based) FFB cannot currently deliver full road surface feedback, because the surface details (gravel stones) are simply not modeled in 3D, but only drawn as a 2D texture. If they removed it by design (which I can't imagine), they actually removed the floor from the house. There's no other FFB effect that can consistently tell you what ground you are driving on and whether your wheels are still touching the ground at all. Considering this effect dispensable is beyond my comprehension. I tend to believe that the effect is actually built in and can be felt with some hardware configurations (some users claimed that they can feel it), but not all. Besides, if Codemasters had wanted to remove it on purpose, why did they leave the canned cattle grid effect in the game?

If it doesn't come from the suspension physics it's fake. It's fake in DR1 and to get a similar effect in dr2 it would have to be fake and canned as well because a sof tyre filled with air driving over a soft, sandy or claylike surface will not cause minute torque induced vibrations that can be felt through the wheel. 

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1 minute ago, Laserjones said:

Most people never claimed anything else than this. The lack of road texture feedback is the main (if not the only) problem. The point is that you seem to believe that it's not actually part of FFB. But it is an essential part of it, as explained above. "Canned" or not does not matter. What matters is the completeness of information provided by the wheel.

So why are people suggesting that the ffb is broken, if the only issue is the missing canned gravel texture effect, the absence of which was a deliberate design choice? 

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9 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

The ffb works as intended on the ps4 pro with both the g29 and t300 (it's what I use). 

 

The issue is about the missing canned gravel texture effect. Please don't try to suggest it's not.

I've just explained how it isn't just to do with the "canned gravel effect".  Gave detail in my post. This is MY OPINION. Which I'm entitled to.

Again, why would you think your opinion is worth anymore than anyone else?  Actually don't answer that, as I don't care and would rather this thread remain focused on the issues at hand.  We've seen enough posts of people having a go at each other about things only each individual can really confirm.

Edited by Ferrethead81

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2 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

So why are people suggesting that the ffb is broken, if the only issue is the missing canned gravel texture effect, the absence of which was a deliberate design choice? 

As I explained earlier, I feel the implementation is poor as the overall feeling I get (ignoring road effects) is a sloppy messy of a wheel.

If I turn up the settings so the wheel feels like I think it should, I lose any feeling for the road.  If I turn the settings down so I can feel the road, its a slopfest.  

Though I think we should have some road noise through the wheel, I really couldn't care less.  When I land over a 10 foot jump, I should feel it.

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2 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

If it doesn't come from the suspension physics it's fake. It's fake in DR1 and to get a similar effect in dr2 it would have to be fake and canned as well because a sof tyre filled with air driving over a soft, sandy or claylike surface will not cause minute torque induced vibrations that can be felt through the wheel. 

If it resembles what you feel in a real car, it's not fake, but an approximation of reality. Of course, a wheel with only one vibration motor cannot reproduce the full scope of vibration felt in a real car. But it needs to do its best to approximate it (and also deliver some of the vibration usually felt through the seat). In a real car, even minute, detailed road texture vibrations can be easily felt both through the seat and through the wheel. Even different kinds of tarmac can be felt differently. I tested this multiple times in my car after someone in this thread claimed that it cannot be felt, which is simply wrong.

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