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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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3 minutes ago, Ferrethead81 said:

I've just explained how it isn't just to do with the "canned gravel effect".  Gave detail in my post. This is MY OPINION. Which I'm entitled to.

Again, why would you think your opinion is worth anymore than anyone else?  Actually don't answer that, as I don't care and would rather this thread remain focused on the issues at hand.  We've seen enough posts of people having a go at each other about things only each individual can really confirm.

I never said that my opinion was worth more than anyone else's. What I've said is that given that the issue is purely about a missing canned gravel texture effect, it would be more appropriate to open a new thread requesting it, instead of trying to blindside the devs by insinuating and exaggerating that the ffb is completely broken.

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1 minute ago, Laserjones said:

If it resembles what you feel in a real car, it's not fake, but an approximation of reality. Of course, a wheel with only one vibration motor cannot reproduce the full scope of vibration felt in a real car. But it needs to do its best to approximate it (and also deliver some of the vibration usually felt through the seat). In a real car, even minute, detailed road texture vibrations can be easily felt both through the seat and through the wheel. Even different kinds of tarmac can be felt differently. I tested this multiple times in my car after someone in this thread claimed that it cannot be felt, which is simply wrong.

It resembles what you feel through vibrations through the chassis, not through the torque in the steering wheel. Given that your wheel communicates everything through torque, a gravel texture effect has to by definition be faked. 

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27 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

It resembles what you feel through vibrations through the chassis, not through the torque in the steering wheel. Given that your wheel communicates everything through torque, a gravel texture effect has to by definition be faked. 

A wheel on a real car does not communicate everything through torque. The wheel conveys vibrations of the chassis via the steering column. If the sim wheel only has a torque motor (some expensive wheels have additional vibration motors), of course it can only vibrate via that motor. But your hands won't feel much difference between torque vibration and simple up/down vibration as long as the amplitude is tiny. And torque vibration is still more realistic than no vibration at all. And by the way, if you call this "fake", then FFB effects like Suspension and Collision would be fake as well, because these also don't create torque in a real car wheel (at least not only). FFB can always just approximate reality, so some degree of workaround is always required. As long as an effect makes my overall feeling come closer to the real thing than without it, I wouldn't call it fake. I would use the term "fake" only for effects that are not correlated with the actual driving situation at all, as found in some cheap arcade games.

Quote

So why are people suggesting that the ffb is broken, if the only issue is the missing canned gravel texture effect, the absence of which was a deliberate design choice? 

Codemasters never confirmed that it was deliberately removed. And why should they remove (canned) road vibration, but not remove (canned) cattle grid vibration, even though the latter is a much less important source of information for the driver? It just makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, CalvinCar said:

What's going on is that the ffb isn't broken, is it? The problem is that some people are not able to, or don't want to, accept the missing canned gravel texture effect. The force feedback itself is actually better in every way than it was in DR1, especially in terms of communicating weight transfer, which was completely missing in the first dirt rally. 

Now, I'm sure that the fake, canned gravel texture effect was removed from the DR2 by design. It's not a case of some guy's finger slipping and deleting all the code that creates the canned texture effect just before the game went gold. 

My guess is that they have made their decision are not willing to go back on it. However, if you guys want that effect so badly I'd suggest opening another thread requesting it, instead of insinuating that the ffb is broken and is in dire need of fixing. That sort of thing is unlikely to go down well with the devs, nor is it likely to give you guys any credibility as ffb connoseurs. 

There it is. I've opened a codemasters account just to say all that. 

I respectfully disagree, I've back-to-back driven DR 1.0 and 2.0 on identical Swedish stages as recently as yesterday and DR 2.0 FFB is massively lacking in detail.

Despite what LaserJones is saying, it's NOT just about the feel of road texture (vibration), it's also about feeling the front wheels reacting to the bumps and undulations in the road. I can't speak for PS4 or Xbox (though many others have) but on PC at least those effects are so weak as to be non-existent.

On PC you can edit the XML file and artificially bump the overall forces up several magnitudes. By doing that, and ramping the suspension in-game slider all the way up, I can feel that the bumps and undulations ARE there in the FFB code, it still feels very sloppy compared to DR 1.0 and other games. You also get some unfortunately clipping as a result of brute-forcing a solution.

On the same stage I am significantly slower in DR 2.0 than DR 1.0 because I just cannot get the feedback I need to make corrections in time.

1 hour ago, CalvinCar said:

The ffb works as intended on the ps4 pro with both the g29 and t300 (it's what I use). 

The issue is about the missing canned gravel texture effect. Please don't try to suggest it's not.

It's not.

55 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

If it doesn't come from the suspension physics it's fake. It's fake in DR1 and to get a similar effect in dr2 it would have to be fake and canned as well because a sof tyre filled with air driving over a soft, sandy or claylike surface will not cause minute torque induced vibrations that can be felt through the wheel. 

Go and drive DR 1.0 again, the FFB feels terrific. It's not canned effects, it's real and useful feedback on what is happening to your front wheels as you smash over bumps, ruts, off camber slopes and jumps.

53 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

So why are people suggesting that the ffb is broken, if the only issue is the missing canned gravel texture effect, the absence of which was a deliberate design choice? 

That is not the only issue, not by a long shot.

47 minutes ago, Ferrethead81 said:

As I explained earlier, I feel the implementation is poor as the overall feeling I get (ignoring road effects) is a sloppy messy of a wheel.

If I turn up the settings so the wheel feels like I think it should, I lose any feeling for the road.  If I turn the settings down so I can feel the road, its a slopfest.  

Though I think we should have some road noise through the wheel, I really couldn't care less.  When I land over a 10 foot jump, I should feel it.

This.

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1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

I respectfully disagree, I've back-to-back driven DR 1.0 and 2.0 on identical Swedish stages as recently as yesterday and DR 2.0 FFB is massively lacking in detail.

Despite what LaserJones is saying, it's NOT just about the feel of road texture (vibration), it's also about feeling the front wheels reacting to the bumps and undulations in the road. I can't speak for PS4 or Xbox (though many others have) but on PC at least those effects are so weak as to be non-existent.

On PC you can edit the XML file and artificially bump the overall forces up several magnitudes. By doing that, and ramping the suspension in-game slider all the way up, I can feel that the bumps and undulations ARE there in the FFB code, it still feels very sloppy compared to DR 1.0 and other games. You also get some unfortunately clipping as a result of brute-forcing a solution.

On the same stage I am significantly slower in DR 2.0 than DR 1.0 because I just cannot get the feedback I need to make corrections in time.

It's not.

Go and drive DR 1.0 again, the FFB feels terrific. It's not canned effects, it's real and useful feedback on what is happening to your front wheels as you smash over bumps, ruts, off camber slopes and jumps.

That is not the only issue, not by a long shot.

This.

I have compared DR1 to DR2 too and my perception is that the ffb in DR2 is far superior to the ffb in DR1. DR1 just has massively exaggerated bump effects with a pronounced canned gravel texture running thoughout. But these things do not make great ffb.

 

in DR2, in contrast everything is much more subtle, but you can feel the weight transfer (where is the weight transfer in DR1 btw?), the tyre slip, the tyres digging into the surfaces (not as much top of the surface feel, which is great) and even things like ruts and cambers seem to be perceptible, and it just feels more natural and more realistic in general. 

 

You guys really have to de-condition yourselves from the erroneous belief that exaggerated bump effects combined with canned gravel texture effects is the pinnacle of great ffb. 

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1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

I respectfully disagree, I've back-to-back driven DR 1.0 and 2.0 on identical Swedish stages as recently as yesterday and DR 2.0 FFB is massively lacking in detail.

 

Have you noticed how the weight transfer is missing in the ffb in DR1? That's my definition of lacking in detail. Why hasn't anyone said anything about that? Surely weight transfer is infinitely more important in rallying than a canned gravel texture, and yet somehow people think that the ffb in DR1 is better. Personally I can't fathom this kind of reasoning.m

Edited by CalvinCar
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I went back about a month ago to check the ffb on Dirt 1, i must say its not a high bar to overcome, as the ffb is actually quite basic.

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5 hours ago, doyaneedthis said:

I went back about a month ago to check the ffb on Dirt 1, i must say its not a high bar to overcome, as the ffb is actually quite basic.

True, 4 years on you would expect at least the same, maybe even a slight improvement, dare i say.

Edited by Pieman99

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8 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

Go and drive DR 1.0 again, the FFB feels terrific. It's not canned effects, it's real and useful feedback on what is happening to your front wheels as you smash over bumps, ruts, off camber slopes and jumps.

There is absolutely more stuff going on in DR1 when it comes to FFB. What it doesn't do well though is self aligning, it's pretty much dead in that regard and only seem to react to the camber of the roads. If the road is flat there is very little if any self aligning by the caster effect. 

When it comes to SAT which is by far the most important FFB effect imo, DR2 is far superior. 

That said, I'm all for more suspension/bump/road texture effects so more people will be happy. The people that does not want much of these effects can still reduce them with the suspension slider. 

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5 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

I have compared DR1 to DR2 too and my perception is that the ffb in DR2 is far superior to the ffb in DR1. DR1 just has massively exaggerated bump effects with a pronounced canned gravel texture running thoughout. But these things do not make great ffb.

Ok, then you're all set. Not sure what you are trying to say here? You think DR 1.0 FFB is bad and DR 2.0 is good, gotcha. Most disagree. I'm not sure how you get 'massively exaggerated bump effects' from DR 1.0 - they all feel spot on to me - CSL Elite on PC with basically stock settings.

5 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

in DR2, in contrast everything is much more subtle, but you can feel the weight transfer (where is the weight transfer in DR1 btw?), the tyre slip, the tyres digging into the surfaces (not as much top of the surface feel, which is great) and even things like ruts and cambers seem to be perceptible, and it just feels more natural and more realistic in general. 

You guys really have to de-condition yourselves from the erroneous belief that exaggerated bump effects combined with canned gravel texture effects is the pinnacle of great ffb. 

You're new to the party, I get that, but the SAT (Self-Aligning Torque) has been recognised as functioning correctly. That's the 'weight transfer' you're talking about. It's fine, but without knowing what your front wheels are doing with relation to the road it's only half (at best) of the equation.

5 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

Have you noticed how the weight transfer is missing in the ffb in DR1? That's my definition of lacking in detail. Why hasn't anyone said anything about that? Surely weight transfer is infinitely more important in rallying than a canned gravel texture, and yet somehow people think that the ffb in DR1 is better. Personally I can't fathom this kind of reasoning.m

By over simplifying your argument to SAT vs 'canned gravel texture' you're doing your own point a disservice while also creating a pretty obvious strawman. I can understand not fathoming that reasoning, but lucky for you no one is making it.

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On 4/12/2019 at 12:09 PM, Hub67 said:

I can assure you he can feel the road through the wheel!  I don't 'know' this from watching a video - I know it from driving an off-road vehicle.  If you missed my earlier post I'll copy it below here.  

How should FFB really feel?  For 'my' real world comparison - I took my 2019 Yamaha YXZ1000R out this weekend - here are my thoughts:  The first thing I noticed is on pavement at very low speeds I could 'feel' the knobs on the tires through the wheel (kinda like the cow grates) ... this lessens as the speed increases.  On the trails I can absolutely 'feel' through the wheel the difference between driving on sand -vs- gravel -vs- pavement -vs- hard packed clay.  I could tell you what surface I'm driving on with a blindfold on.  Same thing with ruts - they will pull the wheel depending on their depth and the speed at which you hit them - and when you hit a big one you know it!  

Dirt Rally 2.0 has literally ZERO feedback from the surface you are driving on. 

I’ll welcome anyone who wants to know what it really feels like to drive one of these - to come join me in Appleton, WI. 

This FFB is junk!  It’s ******** we ... as customers have been left out in the cold after spending $83.00 for a product (mine at least) that I’m not using because I’m not happy with it.  CM let us down - the least they could do is refund our money! 

 

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On 4/29/2019 at 9:57 AM, CalvinCar said:

I never said that my opinion was worth more than anyone else's. What I've said is that given that the issue is purely about a missing canned gravel texture effect, it would be more appropriate to open a new thread requesting it, instead of trying to blindside the devs by insinuating and exaggerating that the ffb is completely broken.

You're not getting it.  It isn't and never was just about the "canned" road effects.  It may have been for a small number of people here.  But again, there seems to be a number of people who are rabidly trying to make the issue just about the canned effects.  To what end?  Who knows......maybe you can explain.

You think your opinion is worth more because you keep trying to make some sort of comment summarizing/simplify the intent of this thread, but have incorrectly picked one issue to focus on.  Even with explanation from various different contributors here suggesting otherwise.

You think your opinion is worth more because you're flat out ignoring (sometimes condescendingly) the opinion of a large number of people who are expressing a reality different to your own, while acting like some sort of authority on the matter.

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3 hours ago, Ferrethead81 said:

You're not getting it.  It isn't and never was just about the "canned" road effects.  It may have been for a small number of people here.  But again, there seems to be a number of people who are rabidly trying to make the issue just about the canned effects.  To what end?  Who knows......maybe you can explain.

You think your opinion is worth more because you keep trying to make some sort of comment summarizing/simplify the intent of this thread, but have incorrectly picked one issue to focus on.  Even with explanation from various different contributors here suggesting otherwise.

You think your opinion is worth more because you're flat out ignoring (sometimes condescendingly) the opinion of a large number of people who are expressing a reality different to your own, while acting like some sort of authority on the matter.

This post kind of reads like a poem. A very strange verbal diarrhoea poem. 

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From another thread.

 

1 hour ago, ChristinaMc said:

Hey! I've just replied to your post on reddit, but I wanted to put this on the forums too so my response was in more than one place. I've structured it loosely around condensed bulletpoints that others have shared, so hopefully it's in a clear enough format:

"We're not fixing FFB as it's not broken for us"

We're definitely making changes in this area - but OP is right that we had to do a lot of investigative work and talk to a lot of people to ascertain what was 'missing'. Also, as we've alluded to elsewhere - not everyone has been affected/been discontent with the FFB out of the box, so we've had to discuss about how to implement it as well (and that's still something we're trying to define). Please bear in mind that we also have a wealth of data here about people's wheels, settings, etc - so it's all a big balancing act to please as many people as possible. 

In terms of the process of how we refine and change FFB; it’s something that needed key individuals in the studio to be given the time to look at in detail, whilst also trying to balance this against giving them the time to fix other issues and work on upcoming features. There's also a lot less people available to take part in this process now the game's out, as the service team is smaller than the base game team. There are demands from all areas of the company, with numerous projects going on and F1 2019 launching two months earlier than ever before. In that respect, it's something that's ended up taking us a little longer to tackle, just by sheer number of people available - and that's something we're really sorry about. Throw into the mix that we want to get it validated by pro drivers, and you can see how the weeks have gotten away from us.

And finally, just on the point of FFB: with DiRT Rally 2.0 we very much focused on simulating the effects that come through the front wheels as purely as possible, and we (and external validators) were pleased with how authentic the simulation felt in that regard. However on previous games, rather than just science, we used a little more art in some of the effects (especially with regards to the chassis effects, environmental effects, etc) - and that's the area where we've seen the most feedback. 

We didn't think we were launching it 'broken' and felt we had achieved and validated a realistic representation of steering feedback when driving a rally car. The sheer volume of [negative] feedback we've had definitely took us by surprise, and it's taken us a considerable amount of time to find something that a/ tackles the feedback we've had, and b/ is still an improvement on all previous iterations of DiRT games. We're getting there, and I look forward to sharing with you in the coming weeks when these changes/options will arrive. Our car handling team have done an absolutely stellar job when it comes to DiRT, and they've been valiant in going through the more nuanced feedback we've received about how it feels. 

"We're not adding clubs because there aren't enough players in this game" 

Clubs is in for testing now. It's very likely Clubs will arrive in June - which we know is late, and it's disappointing because the same thing happened with DiRT 4's Clubs coming quite late post-launch - but it's a huge undertaking to get right. We have also needed to refactor the backend RaceNet system and make significant changes to the web interface as a result. However, we're seeing some brilliant retention numbers despite the lateness of this feature, and we're confident it'll be more than ready to provide infrastructure for our competitive plans later this year (as well as all your plans). 

Just while we're on competitive - the next update will include human-only MP rallycross. We've always been listening, and that comes later this month in Update 1.4.

"We only push out the DLC we promised because that makes us money while fixes don't" 

The health, longevity and player sentiment is just as important to the commercial stuff as DLC is. There's no point releasing DLC if people aren't playing the game - if no-one's playing it, who's going to buy DLC? And conversely, who will let us make DLC if no-one's buying it? Plainly: everyone who's worked on DR2.0 loves it and wants to make more for it for as long as we're allowed!

But back to the main issue raised: the new environments are made by our amazing Environment Artists and Level Design team, and the vehicles are made by our Vehicle Artists. It's a predominantly different set of skillsets that tackle the bugs. However, player satisfaction and happiness is just critical to our commercial goals as DLC.

"We're working on VR instead" 

"We're not working on VR because of other fixes" 

We're working with an external development company to make this. There's a VR build in the studio right now - the lion's share of work is done, and we're onto looking at comfort features. More on that soon!
 

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Codemasters???? 

FFB fix...in 2020? 2021?

Ligues?, Clubs?. For Dirt 5? 

Shame

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, SkiddyMcCrash said:

From another thread.

 

Cheers for that, Must be gutting for the devs thinking they have made an incredible FFB system in the game but on release the vast majority of people with wheels hating it and saying it's broken. Im one of them tbh as i have said many times 2.0 has the worst FFB i've played in the last 8+ years of any sim. Hopefully they can find a good middle ground of what they think is perfect and what their customers want.

Only worrying thing is "I look forward to sharing with you in the coming weeks when these changes/options will arrive" That sounds like it could be still well over a month away 👎

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And once again they immediately go back to a skeleton crew for DiRT, sending key developers off to work on F1 and other games. Great.

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4 hours ago, SkiddyMcCrash said:

From another thread.

 

What is this, the muppet show. 

Why no proper response from codemasters about ffb

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15 minutes ago, watzcoc said:

What is this, the muppet show. 

Why no proper response from codemasters about ffb

Did you actually read it? I think it was a pretty comprehensive albeit disappointing communiqué. About 6 weeks later than it should have been, but at least we got it. 

4 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Cheers for that, Must be gutting for the devs thinking they have made an incredible FFB system in the game but on release the vast majority of people with wheels hating it and saying it's broken. Im one of them tbh as i have said many times 2.0 has the worst FFB i've played in the last 8+ years of any sim. Hopefully they can find a good middle ground of what they think is perfect and what their customers want.

I know, it’s mind boggling. I feel so disconnected from the car with the current FFB, I’m not sure how anyone thought it was an improvement. 

4 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Only worrying thing is "I look forward to sharing with you in the coming weeks when these changes/options will arrive" That sounds like it could be still well over a month away 👎

Sounds like late May for 1.4 and maybe June for 1.5. FFB in 1.5? I sure hope the make a beta branch with altered FFB available asaprac. 

4 hours ago, ShodanCat said:

And once again they immediately go back to a skeleton crew for DiRT, sending key developers off to work on F1 and other games. Great.

Yup.

I tried telling people two months ago that unless we lobbied hard for fixes to critical issues in the first few months we were screwed because long term support is always sketchy with CMs.

At least VR is still coming but I’m concerned for the FFB implementation ever realising the games potential. 

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4 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Cheers for that, Must be gutting for the devs thinking they have made an incredible FFB system in the game but on release the vast majority of people with wheels hating it and saying it's broken. Im one of them tbh as i have said many times 2.0 has the worst FFB i've played in the last 8+ years of any sim. Hopefully they can find a good middle ground of what they think is perfect and what their customers want.

Only worrying thing is "I look forward to sharing with you in the coming weeks when these changes/options will arrive" That sounds like it could be still well over a month away 👎

For me -  DR2 has best FFB of all Dirt games - very close to RBR. And thank God they didn't ported fake arcade FFB from DR1. I have  more than 20 000 km on RBR and I can say - Jon Armstrong did amazing job, but now everybody wants fake FFB like Dirt Rally 1 - in reality, they don't want real sim, close to IRL rally.

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42 minutes ago, virgism said:

For me -  DR2 has best FFB of all Dirt games - very close to RBR. And thank God they didn't ported fake arcade FFB from DR1. I have  more than 20 000 km on RBR and I can say - Jon Armstrong did amazing job, but now everybody wants fake FFB like Dirt Rally 1 - in reality, they don't want real sim, close to IRL rally.

Isnt RBR like 15+ years old i would imagine the FFB has been surpassed by every modern sim? 

 

PCARS 2 FFB on the Rallycross cars is leagues and leagues ahead of 2.0 

Edited by FLAW3D
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I think the FFB of DR2 is one of the best too, especially in terms of SAT and feeling of suspentions.

but for people who think DR1 is better, just exaggerating some vibration according to the road texture might be a nice solution.Also, it may be good to emphasize the beginning of SAT a little bit.

Anyway, I never go back to DR1, because that FFB is so artificial, I feel now.

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Great, another post you have to search really, really hard. The community 'management' is top notch.

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1 hour ago, ChappieDog771 said:

I think the FFB of DR2 is one of the best too, especially in terms of SAT and feeling of suspentions.

but for people who think DR1 is better, just exaggerating some vibration according to the road texture might be a nice solution.Also, it may be good to emphasize the beginning of SAT a little bit.

Anyway, I never go back to DR1, because that FFB is so artificial, I feel now.

i too like the FFB in Dirt Rally 2.0, what i do not like is the lack of immersion using the wheel. It's as if the vibration/road effects have been turned off, thus having no feeling coming through the wheel. Wheel weight, feedback ect is fine it's the lack of feed back that is not.

Due to the lack of feeling or information from the road surface playing with the wheel feels some what empty, even while playing on controller there is more feeling coming through and that draws you into the immersion of the game.

Edited by watzcoc
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