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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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3 hours ago, virgism said:

For me -  DR2 has best FFB of all Dirt games - very close to RBR. And thank God they didn't ported fake arcade FFB from DR1. I have  more than 20 000 km on RBR and I can say - Jon Armstrong did amazing job, but now everybody wants fake FFB like Dirt Rally 1 - in reality, they don't want real sim, close to IRL rally.

I played both DR2 and RBR some weeks ago, and FFB in RBR felt very different and a lot better for me than in DR2. RBR lets me feel the contact with the road, DR2 does not. When playing DR2, something always feels missing. FFB in DR1 as well as RBR (even though they are very different) never made me think "Wait, something's wrong here." DR2 did so immediately. And calling something "real sim" that does not feel like driving a real car at all is just strange.

2 hours ago, ChappieDog771 said:

but for people who think DR1 is better, just exaggerating some vibration according to the road texture might be a nice solution. 

How could something be "exaggerated" if it's not even there'? 😉

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9 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Cheers for that, Must be gutting for the devs thinking they have made an incredible FFB system in the game but on release the vast majority of people with wheels hating it and saying it's broken.  

I don't know if it's the vast majority as it's always the disappointed ones who shout the loudest, everybody else is playing and enjoying and not participating in forums and not writing reviews. 

However, I too am blown away by the negativity about the ffb in DR2, given that it is far superior to the ffb in DR1 in every way.

It seems to me that a lot of people have confused fake, canned effects for force feedback. Properly speaking something like the gravel texture effect isn't force feedback as its not directly derived from the physics in the game and the way the wheel, tyre and suspension assembly interacts with the topography of the surfaces. Certainly one could make the argument that it adds immersion, but it's not essential, and can actually be detrimental as it can cover up some of the other effects if they are subtle, which I think they should be -- especially in a rallying sim. 

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5 hours ago, virgism said:

For me -  DR2 has best FFB of all Dirt games - very close to RBR. And thank God they didn't ported fake arcade FFB from DR1. I have  more than 20 000 km on RBR and I can say - Jon Armstrong did amazing job, but now everybody wants fake FFB like Dirt Rally 1 - in reality, they don't want real sim, close to IRL rally.

You've pretty much summed it up in two sentences. A thousand thumbs up from me. 

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15 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

It seems to me that a lot of people have confused fake, canned effects for force feedback. Properly speaking something like the gravel texture effect isn't force feedback as its not directly derived from the physics in the game and the way the wheel, tyre and suspension assembly interacts with the topography of the surfaces.

The term "force feedback" does not mean feedback from the 3D topography to the physics engine, but feedback from the game to the player about the driving situation. As long as the force felt in the wheel is correlated with the movement of the car, it is valid force feedback – regardless of whether it is actual movement in the 3D/physics engine or assumed movement, such as the micro-movement caused by gravel (which today's 3D/physics engines cannot simulate directly due to limited computing power). In fact, the term "force feedback" was already used long before realistic physics engines even existed in games.

16 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Certainly one could make the argument that it adds immersion, but it's not essential

How could something that tells you whether your wheels touch the ground not be essential? When I quickly drive over a crest in DR2 and the car jumps, there is currently nothing that tells me when the wheels leave the ground and when they touch down again. This is essential, not just "nice to have". That being said, immersion is important as well. If you believe that it is not important, you could also say that all the great graphics and sounds are unnecessary. Then we could all go back to RBR and be happy. 😉

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27 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

The term "force feedback" does not mean feedback from the 3D topography to the physics engine, but feedback from the game to the player about the driving situation. As long as the force felt in the wheel is correlated with the movement of the car, it is valid force feedback – regardless of whether it is actual movement in the 3D/physics engine or assumed movement, such as the micro-movement caused by gravel (which today's 3D/physics engines cannot simulate directly due to limited computing power). In fact, the term "force feedback" was already used long before realistic physics engines even existed in games.

How could something that tells you whether your wheels touch the ground not be essential? When I quickly drive over a crest in DR2 and the car jumps, there is currently nothing that tells me when the wheels leave the ground and when they touch down again. This is essential, not just "nice to have". That being said, immersion is important as well. If you believe that it is not important, you could also say that all the great graphics and sounds are unnecessary. Then we could all go back to RBR and be happy. 😉

Properly speaking true force feedback comes from the physics modelling. If it doesn't it's fake effect, not true force feedback. 

And in DR2 the effect of the wheels touching the ground and digging into the ground is communicated very well. No fake gravel texture effect is needed. 

What is needed in a rally driving simulator is a clear communication of weight transfer, and that's completely missing in DR1, but nobody seems to have noticed for some reason. 

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FFB for me is really accurate and I can feel when the front wheels are light over crests, sliding, or digging in, etc.  With a T300 and the default settings all I could feel at first was a very stong centering force which drowned out all the subtleties.   After tweaking the settings a LOT I have let them shine through.  Even the cattle grates are spot on now.  Though IRL they are much *louder* when you hit them faster than 20mph.

Every so often my wheel has zero FFB and I have to restart the game and the wheel.  I am on PS4pro and this only happens if I start the game from a suspended state or start with my controller and then switch to the wheel.  

If there is a "fix", I hope it is more range in the adjustment sliders or an otherwise optional tweak rather than a global change for everyone.   

Thanks to the Codemasters team for everything they've done thus far.  

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Properly speaking true force feedback comes from the physics modelling. If it doesn't it's fake effect, not true force feedback. 

And in DR2 the effect of the wheels touching the ground and digging into the ground is communicated very well. No fake gravel texture effect is needed. 

What is needed in a rally driving simulator is a clear communication of weight transfer, and that's completely missing in DR1, but nobody seems to have noticed for some reason. 

There is definitely something wrong in DR2.0 FFB... I do agree that weight transfer and SAT is well perceived through the current FFB, but (from my day to day driving experience) you should feel the surface, bumps, ruts and holes in the steering wheel as well... The proof that the current FFB is pathetic is that there is almost no feeling of surface texture... UNTIL you cross a cattle grid... I find it amusing that by then, my wheel shakes so much it almost hurts my hands (talk about canned effects)... What a lack of coherence this is... I know people in DR1 that prefer to have low FFB and no surface texture, and are faster this way, it's perfectly fine... To those, there are the sliders to tweak the forces down... To us, those that like to feel the surface and road noise (canned or not), there is no current solution... Let's wait, and hope...

Edited by Opassac
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1 hour ago, CalvinCar said:

I don't know if it's the vast majority as it's always the disappointed ones who shout the loudest, everybody else is playing and enjoying and not participating in forums and not writing reviews. 

However, I too am blown away by the negativity about the ffb in DR2, given that it is far superior to the ffb in DR1 in every way.

It seems to me that a lot of people have confused fake, canned effects for force feedback. Properly speaking something like the gravel texture effect isn't force feedback as its not directly derived from the physics in the game and the way the wheel, tyre and suspension assembly interacts with the topography of the surfaces. Certainly one could make the argument that it adds immersion, but it's not essential, and can actually be detrimental as it can cover up some of the other effects if they are subtle, which I think they should be -- especially in a rallying sim. 

People are not just comparing it to DR1 though as we have a wealth of sims and 2.0 ffb falls short againt most of them.

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11 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Properly speaking true force feedback comes from the physics modelling. If it doesn't it's fake effect, not true force feedback. 

Please substantiate this with a proper source. I've never seen this definition anywhere. Probably because this arbitrary differentiation between "true FFB" and "fake effects" makes no sense at all for the reasons explained above (and multiple times before). You could just as well call any movement of the wheel "fake", simply because you are not really driving. In fact, even the car and the road on the screen are "fake"! :classic_biggrin:

Simulating only a part of the car movements rather than all of them (as far as possible with the limited possibilities of a sim wheel) is simply incomplete, nothing else. Seeing a gravel road, but not feeling it simply ruins the magic a good sim should provide. In fact, I even miss the subtle texture effect on tarmac, as it can be felt well on a real car.

12 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

And in DR2 the effect of the wheels touching the ground and digging into the ground is communicated very well. No fake gravel texture effect is needed. 

Then why don't I feel anything like that when I jump? If you do, you are lucky to have a wheel model where it works.

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2 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

People are not just comparing it to DR1 though as we have a wealth of sims and 2.0 ffb falls short againt most of them.

It falls short in your opinion because those other sims have conditioned you into believing that the more effects (often fake effects) are crammed into the ffb signal the better. Not so. 

 

At at the end of the day DR2 is a rally simulator and there are zero other rally simulators to compare it with that were not made by modders on top of a very rudimentary RBR. Regardless, just because all the other sims jumped off a bridge, it does it mean that DR2 had to as well. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

It falls short in your opinion because those other sims have conditioned you into believing that the more effects (often fake effects) are crammed into the ffb signal the better. Not so. 

 

At at the end of the day DR2 is a rally simulator and there are zero other rally simulators to compare it with that were not made by modders on top of a very rudimentary RBR. Regardless, just because all the other sims jumped off a bridge, it does it mean that DR2 had to as well. 

 

 

For sure, all those others simulators can't be that wrong... hell, even in closed circuits simulators that try do depict reality as good as possbile (and with physics at least on par as DR2.0) you can feel the road texture...

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maybe the really good FFB that people in this thread imagine is the same.  To put it very simply, I think there are two types of people who have complaint about the current FFB of DR2.  One is people who are looking for FFB that simply contains more feel of reality. The other one is people who just say that DR1's FFB is better.  I have anxiety about the latter people.  I hope that the apparently artificial and fake FFB elements in DR1 will not come back. Even if so, it should be adjustable.by the way, i think the road contact information is there in DR2 (by tweaking xml on PC)

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Calvin are you honestly saying if you took a mini or 95 impreza out to a gravel track or dirt track you wouldnt feel any vibrations through the stering column/wheel? Or hitting a hole or divet you wouldnt feel a thing? God knows what you drive in real life but it must be severely disconnected from the road to come to the conclusion that we should have any feeling of the surface you drive on.

We have rally drivers on here telling us that the ffb in game is nothing like real life. 

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6 minutes ago, Opassac said:

For sure, all those others simulators can't be that wrong... hell, even in closed circuits simulators that try do depict reality as good as possbile (and with physics at least on par as DR2.0) you can feel the road texture...

Every single simulator I've ever played ( I've played them all except iRacing) handles ffb differently and they all feel very different from one another. 

I also can't think of a single sim that has a heavy canned gravel, or road texture like DR1. The only one that I can think of that comes close is driveclub, but that's not a sim. 

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1 minute ago, FLAW3D said:

Calvin are you honestly saying if you took a mini or 95 impreza out to a gravel track or dirt track you wouldnt feel any vibrations through the stering column/wheel? Or hitting a hole or divet you wouldnt feel a thing? God knows what you drive in real life but it must be severely disconnected from the road to come to the conclusion that we should have any feeling of the surface you drive on.

We have rally drivers on here telling us that the ffb in game is nothing like real life. 

You most definitely would not feel vibrations caused by pebbles or small gravel stones through the torque coming out of the steering column. You might feel something through the chassis vibrations but not the actual torque. That's the key here -- the TORQUE. 

 

Think of of it this way. You have a soft, deformable tyre attached to a soft Spring driving over a soft deformable surface like sand or clay ( that's way they are mostly in in DR2) with some incidental gravel stones here and there. So if the tyre suspension and topography are properly simulated as deformable what is going to cause those minute, high frequency torque-driven oscillatons to give you the gravel texture effect like in DR1. The answer is nothing-- it has to be faked. Therefore it's a fake effect and not true force feedback. 

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4 minutes ago, ChappieDog771 said:

by the way, i think the road contact information is there in DR2 (by tweaking xml on PC)

I've tried various XML force settings (0.9 (default), 1, 5, and even 9 to make sure I did not miss anything) and virtually all combinations of slider settings (tested all parameters individually to make sure they are not covered up), but I could not enable any road texture vibration, not even a tiny bit, except on cattle grids and bridges (Thrustmaster T150).

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2 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Every single simulator I've ever played ( I've played them all except iRacing) handles ffb differently and they all feel very different from one another. 

I also can't think of a single sim that has a heavy canned gravel, or road texture like DR1. The only one that I can think of that comes close is driveclub, but that's not a sim. 

...but i'm sure you feel at least "some" gravel or road texture in all those other simulators... Not trying to be too negative about the FFB (as i actually don't dislike it that much), but in my opinion the feeling is disappointing, lacking and do feel strange and incoherent and not immersive enough...

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2 minutes ago, Opassac said:

...but i'm sure you feel at least "some" gravel or road texture in all those other simulators... Not trying to be too negative about the FFB (as i actually don't dislike it that much), but in my opinion the feeling is disappointing, lacking and do feel strange and incoherent and not immersive enough...

What we see with our eyes on screen has to make sense with what we feel with the wheel and this moment in time the two dont match up.

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2 minutes ago, Opassac said:

...but i'm sure you feel at least "some" gravel or road texture in all those other simulators... Not trying to be too negative about the FFB (as i actually don't dislike it that much), but in my opinion the feeling is disappointing, lacking and do feel strange and incoherent and not immersive enough...

No you don't. You feel the bumps and in some sims like assetto corsa tyre slip is communicated by a slight vibration, which is a semi- fake effect that you can kind of get away with because sometimes tyres can oscillate slightly in real life giving you a bit of vibration. But that's more of an artistic flourish rather than a pure physics derived effect. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

What we see with our eyes on screen has to make sense with what we feel with the wheel and this moment in time the two dont match up.

They absolutely do match up. What doesn't match up is driving a car with air filled tyres and soft suspension over soft sandy and claylike surfaces and feeling some kind of constant gravel texture. 

Edited by CalvinCar
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11 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

I've tried various XML force settings (0.9 (default), 1, 5, and even 9 to make sure I did not miss anything) and virtually all combinations of slider settings (tested all parameters individually to make sure they are not covered up), but I could not enable any road texture vibration, not even a tiny bit, except on cattle grids and bridges (Thrustmaster T150).

Certainly there is no micro vibration, but I can certainly feel the road surface information such as bumps, curbs, and the intrusion from tarmac to gravel.  If that micro vibration is so important to you, I will respect it, but for me the micro vibration is not so important.

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1 minute ago, CalvinCar said:

You most definitely would not feel vibrations caused by pebbles or small gravel stones through the torque coming out of the steering column. You might feel something through the chassis vibrations but not the actual torque. That's the key here -- the TORQUE. 

Sigh, we have discussed this before – don't you even read what I tell you? The wheel on a real car can (and does) vibrate in any direction (mostly up/down) caused by forces transferred from the chassis to the steering column. This has nothing to do with torque (which is a rotational force around the wheel axis). But if the sim wheel only has an axial motor, this motor must necessarily be used to simulate these vibrations, too. You won't notice the difference whether the wheel (slightly!) vibrates in up/down direction or in rotational direction. It virtually feels the same, so it's acceptable as a workaround. But you will notice the difference between the vibrations being there or not. So which is better? Generating the vibes with a little trick or not having them at all? Obviously you think for whatever reason that they are not needed at all, but those who want the motion of the car to be simulated as completely as possible (which is surely the majority) should have the option to enable them.

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5 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

No you don't. You feel the bumps and in some sims like assetto corsa tyre slip is communicated by a slight vibration, which is a semi- fake effect that you can kind of get away with because sometimes tyres can oscillate slightly in real life giving you a bit of vibration. But that's more of an artistic flourish rather than a pure physics derived effect. 

So tire slipping is a semi-fake effect that you can get away with, but feeling the car is passing through a curb in a circuit or hit a hole/rut in a rally sim is canned and not real, so should no be replicated through my wheel? i just don't get that... Mate, i know my car's seat won't vibrate just because, but for (what i think is) the sake of immersion i installed shakers behind to try to replicate the feeling of driving a real car in a real stage/circuit as close as i can, and i do feel my wheel shaking/vibrating/torquing (call it what you want) would add to that... I understand that not everyone likes it but, for those, you can always move down the suspension/collision/other effects sliders (at least in DR1 i think)

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5 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

They absolutely do match up. What doesn't match up is driving a car with air filled tyres and soft suspension over soft sandy and claylike surfaces and feeling some kind of constant gravel texture. 

You don't seem to know what "gravel" means. It's not occasional stones. It's a road consisting of stones everywhere!

But regardless of that, any road texture, even tarmac, can be clearly felt through the wheel (and the seat, which the sim wheel needs to make up for, too). If you cannot feel that, you either have no nerves or a $200,000 car. 😉 So if we feel nothing like that in the sim wheel, it clearly does not match up.

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12 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Sigh, we have discussed this before – don't you even read what I tell you? The wheel on a real car can (and does) vibrate in any direction (mostly up/down) caused by forces transferred from the chassis to the steering column. This has nothing to do with torque (which is a rotational force around the wheel axis). But if the sim wheel only has an axial motor, this motor must necessarily be used to simulate these vibrations, too. You won't notice the difference whether the wheel (slightly!) vibrates in up/down direction or in rotational direction. It virtually feels the same, so it's acceptable as a workaround. But you will notice the difference between the vibrations being there or not. So which is better? Generating the vibes with a little trick or not having them at all? Obviously you think for whatever reason that they are not needed at all, but those who want the motion of the car to be simulated as completely as possible (which is surely the majority) should have the option to enable them.

It's better not to generate anything with any tricks. Ffb should be physics based and as pure as possible. All the forces should be well balanced and not compete and cover each or cover each other up. There should be no clipping and no intrusive forces should be present that would not be present in real life. And that's exactly what we've got.

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