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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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2 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

You don't seem to know what "gravel" means. It's not occasional stones. It's a road consisting of stones everywhere!

But regardless of that, any road texture, even tarmac, can be clearly felt through the wheel (and the seat, which the sim wheel needs to make up for, too). If you cannot feel that, you either have no nerves or a $200,000 car. 😉 So if we feel nothing like that in the sim wheel, it clearly does not match up.

Ok I don't know what gravel means. Please educate me. 

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5 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

It's better not to generate anything with any tricks. Ffb should be physics based and as pure as possible. All the forces should be well balanced and not compete and cover each or cover each other up. There should be no clipping and no intrusive forces should be present that would not be present in real life. And that's exactly what we've got.

What we've got? mate, i guess you haven't played any stage with cattle grids than 😄... 

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7 minutes ago, Opassac said:

So tire slipping is a semi-fake effect that you can get away with, but feeling the car is passing through a curb in a circuit or hit a hole/rut in a rally sim is canned and not real, so should no be replicated through my wheel? i just don't get that... Mate, i know my car's seat won't vibrate just because, but for (what i think is) the sake of immersion i installed shakers behind to try to replicate the feeling of driving a real car in a real stage/circuit as close as i can, and i do feel my wheel shaking/vibrating/torquing (call it what you want) would add to that... I understand that not everyone likes it but, for those, you can always move down the suspension/collision/other effects sliders (at least in DR1 i think)

A car going over a curb is not fake because the curb causes the suspension and tyre to compress, which if simulated through the torque is by definition physics derived. Now, a constant gravel texture effect is not physics derived because the effect is not generated by the physics stemming from the way things are modelled. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Opassac said:

What we've got? mate, i guess you haven't played any stage with cattle grids than 😄... 

No, I haven't. Sadly the Australia and New Zealand stages are not available on my copy of the game. That's what happens when you try to save a buck and get your copy of the game from the wizard of Morocco. The ffb on the other hand is sublime, so that's a win. 

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2 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

A car going over a curb is not fake because the curb causes the suspension and tyre to compress, which if simulated through the torque is by definition physics derived. Now, a constant gravel texture effect is not physics derived because the effect is not generated by the physics stemming from the way things are modelled. 

 

I don't know what is a constant gravel texture effect... all i know is gravel=stones, many little stones (and usually in the rally world, lots of holes/ruts). Many stones/holes/ruts causes the suspension and tyre to compress alot, alot of times... Which, if simulated through the torque is by definition physics derived, so it should be depicted in my wheel... unfortunatly, CM don't understand your definition of game physics... 😞 

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5 minutes ago, Opassac said:

I don't know what is a constant gravel texture effect... all i know is gravel=stones, many little stones (and usually in the rally world, lots of holes/ruts). Many stones/holes/ruts causes the suspension and tyre to compress alot, alot of times... Which, if simulated through the torque is by definition physics derived, so it should be depicted in my wheel... unfortunatly, CM don't understand your definition of game physics... 😞 

In DR2 if there is a stone large enough somewhere to compress the tyre and suspension you should be able to feel it. I know I do. 

 

But looking at the actual gravel stages in DR2 I really don't see anything substantial gravel stone-wise to cause the tyre and suspension to compress. I mean it all looks like some kind of sand and claylike stuff that is quite soft judging by the way the wheel tracks are formed. So even if you have a few pebbles here and they won't compress the tyre and suspension enogh for you to feel very much as the wheels will just push them into the surface. Having said that very large pebbles should give you a very subtle jolt and they do in the game so I don't see the problem.

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physically correct micro vibration caused by gravel is beyond the limit of the computer of today, as @Laserjones said. so implementation of that must be imitation. our discussion seems about which would be better that it exists or not. the answer is simple: all exist and then customers choose them.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

In DR2 if there is a stone large enough somewhere to compress the tyre and suspension you should be able to feel it. I know I do. 

 

But looking at the actual gravel stages in DR2 I really don't see anything substantial gravel stone-wise to cause the tyre and suspension to compress. I mean it all looks like some kind of sand and claylike stuff that is quite soft judging by the way the wheel tracks are formed. So even if you have a few pebbles here and they won't compress the tyre and suspension enogh for you to feel very much as the wheels will just push them into the surface. Having said that very large pebbles should give you a very subtle jolt and they do in the game so I don't see the problem.

Well, i guess you don't have Argentina stages too 😄 ... it's so rocky and bumpy to the point it gets unconfortable to me... 

I obviously can't talk for all the wheels out there (i play in PS4 and own a fanatec csl elite), but in my experience i have to bump the FFB suspension slider to the max to feel even the slightliest road textures/bumps/jumps (which are pretty much unnoticed even this way), but when the car drives through the cattle grids everything starts shaking like it's the end of the world... The surface degradation system even exacerbates this lack of feeling, because when you cross/enter a rut in a badly angle in a real car, the wheel can turn with so much torque that it can even break a finger, something that doesn't translate to the game...

Hey, just to prove that i'm trying to be positive in my criticism, i do really have to praise the feeling of the new Monte Carlo stages... In your own words, i do find sublime the difference between tarmac/ice/snow surface and it transformed one location that i didn't liked much in DR to one of my favourite of 2.0

Edited by Opassac
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51 minutes ago, Opassac said:

Well, i guess you don't have Argentina stages too 😄 ... it's so rocky and bumpy to the point it gets unconfortable to me... 

I obviously can't talk for all the wheels out there (i play in PS4 and own a fanatec csl elite), but in my experience i have to bump the FFB suspension slider to the max to feel even the slightliest road textures/bumps/jumps (which are pretty much unnoticed even this way), but when the car drives through the cattle grids everything starts shaking like it's the end of the world... The surface degradation system even exacerbates this lack of feeling, because when you cross/enter a rut in a badly angle in a real car, the wheel can turn with so much torque that it can even break a finger, something that doesn't translate to the game...

Hey, just to prove that i'm trying to be positive in my criticism, i do really have to praise the feeling of the new Monte Carlo stages... In your own words, i do find sublime the difference between tarmac/ice/snow surface and it transformed one location that i didn't liked much in DR to one of my favourite of 2.0

Argentina definitely does feel a lot bumpier to me than the other gravel location and I can feel more jots from the larger rocks. I guess if you're expecting the kind of brutal ffb here that will wrest the wheel out of your hands and break fingers, you will be somewhat dissapointed.

Its worth keeping in mind that in real life steering in a rally car on gravel is generally very light, especially in a car equipped with power steering. Basically the less friction the lighter the wheel and you can really feel that in monte in the transition from tarmac to snow/ice covered Tarmac for example. 

Personally I really don't see much to criticise as far as the ffb is concerned in dr2. It really is very well balanced and natural feeling while still communicating weight transfer, tyre slip and surface topography. I think as far a a pure simulation, primarily physics-based ffb it is never going to feel very much different without adding weird faked effects.

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5 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

Argentina definitely does feel a lot bumpier to me than the other gravel location and I can feel more jots from the larger rocks. I guess if you're expecting the kind of brutal ffb here that will wrest the wheel out of your hands and break fingers, you will be somewhat dissapointed.

Its worth keeping in mind that in real life steering in a rally car on gravel is generally very light, especially in a car equipped with power steering. Basically the less friction the lighter the wheel and you can really feel that in monte in the transition from tarmac to snow/ice covered Tarmac for example. 

Personally I really don't see much to criticise as far as the ffb is concerned in dr2. It really is very well balanced and natural feeling while still communicating weight transfer, tyre slip and surface topography. I think as far a a pure simulation, primarily physics-based ffb it is never going to feel very much different without adding weird faked effects.

The basic question is, stones/holes/ruts and other surface depressions/compressions should be felt through the wheel (as far as i understood, even you recognized they induce forces derived by the physics engine and so could/should be represented by the torque of the wheel), and in the actual state of the art aren't, at least to a lot of the guys out there... simple as that... 

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2 minutes ago, Opassac said:

The basic question is, stones/holes/ruts and other surface depressions/compressions should be felt through the wheel (as far as i understood, even you recognized they induce forces derived by the physics engine and so could/should be represented by the torque of the wheel), and in the actual state of the art aren't, at least to a lot of the guys out there... simple as that... 

I can definitely feel all of that. You say you can't, so there is not a lot I can say to counter that. 

At end of the day what really matters is what the devs think and based on the latest post from Christina they seem to feel that the ffb is fine.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

I can definitely feel all of that. You say you can't, so there is not a lot I can say to counter that. 

At end of the day what really matters is what the devs think and based on the latest post from Christina they seem to feel that the ffb is fine.

I (and others) surely can't (altough not a game stopper to me). As i stated 3 times now, the proof that the FFB is poorly designed is that the experience of driving trought the cattle grids is completely incoherent with the remaining game (unfortunately you can't compare, you would know what i mean). 

And so, if the devs think and feel the FFB is fine (even if there is a large and vocal community that says something is wrong), everyone should accept the fate and play it as it is?!?!?!?!?! 

You did play DR1? if so and judging your by your ideas, you definitely toned down FFB effects. Well, how hard would it be to implement such a feature that allowed to play the game with more or less FFB felt, acording to our own taste?

cheers mate...

Edited by Opassac
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29 minutes ago, Opassac said:

I (and others) surely can't (altough not a game stopper to me). As i stated 3 times now, the proof that the FFB is poorly designed is that the experience of driving trought the cattle grids is completely incoherent with the remaining game (unfortunately you can't compare, you would know what i mean). 

And so, if the devs think and feel the FFB is fine (even if there is a large and vocal community that says something is wrong), everyone should accept the fate and play it as it is?!?!?!?!?! 

You did play DR1? if so and judging your by your ideas, you definitely toned down FFB effects. Well, how hard would it be to implement such a feature that allowed to play the game with more or less FFB felt, acording to our own taste?

cheers mate...

Im not a dev and I'm not privy to the code that drives the ffb, but I imagine it wouldn't be very hard to bring in the canned gravel texture effect from DR1. The fact that they haven't, and probably won't, tells me that they don't want to contaminate their pure simulation, physics based ffb with what is essentially an arcade immersion adding device. 

I happen to agree with them in that I feel that such devices have no place in sims. You disagree. I'm happy and you're not, and that's that. 

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1 minute ago, CalvinCar said:

Im not a dev and I'm not privy to the code that drives the ffb, but I imagine it wouldn't be very hard to bring in the canned gravel texture effect from DR1. The fact that they haven't, and probably won't, tells me that they don't want to contaminate their pure simulation, physics based ffb with what is essentially an arcade immersion adding device. 

I happen to agree with them in that I feel that such devices have no place in sims. You disagree. I'm happy and you're not, and that's that. 

It seems there's no point in arguing with you... You agreed that suspension effects aren't canned and artifical effects. There's been alot of comments stating those effects aren't perceptible by some users, yet you completely disregard these opinions just because in your case, the FFB "seems" to be working... How hard is to understand that some users simply don't feel those effects (that, according to you own arguments aren't canned)?!?!?!

I rest my case... 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Opassac said:

It seems there's no point in arguing with you... You agreed that suspension effects aren't canned and artifical effects. There's been alot of comments stating those effects aren't perceptible by some users, yet you completely disregard these opinions just because in your case, the FFB "seems" to be working... How hard is to understand that some users simply don't feel those effects (that, according to you own arguments aren't canned)?!?!?!

I rest my case... 

+1 

This is a ridiculous backs and forth. FFB is ok in some respects, and very much not ok in others. SAT works, no issues. Everything else is way understated, there is no meaningful feedback from the wheel to communicate tire slip, road texture, loss of traction etc. Ok fine, so real cars don’t communicate AS MUCH through the wheel, but there is a host of other REAL forces at hand that aid in communicating what the car is (or is not), doing. As a wheel user, on a video game - some effects need to be brought to life through vibration, or other haptic sensations in order to gain understanding of the cars reaction to surfaces, suspension geometry and other forces...most, if not all, were very evident in DR1. Canned or not, it worked, and as a result it was much easier to react to the road based on ‘feel of the wheel’. I am so tired of people on here saying it’s fine the way it is. It isn’t. Is it completely horrible and unplayable? No. However, it needs to be ameliorated to allow us to feel connected to the road. As noted above, the cattle grids are a clear example. You can feel them like crazy, even with suspension setting turned low, but all other bumps, ruts, and or other suspension-feel inducing forces are near-absent. Tell me this normal and I will call BS. Allow us to tone down FFB, everyone wins. Those who like more, voila. Those who like less - good to go as well. The masses tell the story, the community has widely agreed across multiple social media platforms that the FFB is problematic...so for the few that want to play devils advocate, great, have at it. The longevity of this game and it’s sim racing community adoption absolutely depends on a fix. All the naysayers either just want attention, or don’t understand anything about proper FFB implementation in a racing game - much less a Rally one where FFB is vitally important.

Edited by Buckwilder
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1 hour ago, Opassac said:

It seems there's no point in arguing with you... You agreed that suspension effects aren't canned and artifical effects. There's been alot of comments stating those effects aren't perceptible by some users, yet you completely disregard these opinions just because in your case, the FFB "seems" to be working... How hard is to understand that some users simply don't feel those effects (that, according to you own arguments aren't canned)?!?!?!

I rest my case... 

They are vey perceptible to me on both the g29 and t300. 

Besides I'm not the right person to argue with as I'm not a dev and can't affect things one way or the other.

all I can report is that at my end everything works fine and I will take the ffb in DR2 over the ffb in DR1 any day of the week. 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

+1 

This is a ridiculous backs and forth. FFB is ok in some respects, and very much not ok in others. SAT works, no issues. Everything else is way understated, there is no meaningful feedback from the wheel to communicate tire slip, road texture, loss of traction etc. Ok fine, so real cars don’t communicate AS MUCH through the wheel, but there is a host of other REAL forces at hand that aid in communicating what the car is (or is not), doing. As a wheel user, on a video game - some effects need to be brought to life through vibration, or other haptic sensations in order to gain understanding of the cars reaction to surfaces, suspension geometry and other forces...most, if not all, were very evident in DR1. Canned or not, it worked, and as a result it was much easier to react to the road based on ‘feel of the wheel’. I am so tired of people on here saying it’s fine the way it is. It isn’t. Is it completely horrible and unplayable? No. However, it needs to be ameliorated to allow us to feel connected to the road. As noted above, the cattle grids are a clear example. You can feel them like crazy, even with suspension setting turned low, but all other bumps, ruts, and or other suspension-feel inducing forces are near-absent. Tell me this normal and I will call BS. Allow us to tone down FFB, everyone wins. Those who like more, voila. Those who like less - good to go as well. The masses tell the story, the community has widely agreed across multiple social media platforms that the FFB is problematic...so for the few that want to play devils advocate, great, have at it. The longevity of this game and it’s sim racing community adoption absolutely depends on a fix. All the naysayers either just want attention, or don’t understand anything about proper FFB implementation in a racing game - much less a Rally one where FFB is vitally important.

Tyre slip is communicated by the wheel going lighter, not by a vibration. Road texture is there as well but is physics derived and not canned like it was in DR1. 

It seems to me that a lot of you have a very closed-minded, preconceived idea of what good ffb is. Unfortunately your preconceptions don't agree with those of the devs, hence the whining. 

Personally I never intended to spend so much time arguing here. At the end of the day it seems that a lot of people's minds are made up, and not I, not the devs, not the most distinguished ffb connoseurs, nobody, can change those minds. 

Edited by CalvinCar
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Distinguished ffb connoseurs. Wow. 

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Posted (edited)

I was down at the billiards hall last night with a few of the chaps. We were all sitting in the lounge area in our smoking jackets drinking fine scotch when talk inevitably turned to FFB. And we were all in agreement that you can definitely feel tyres slipping through vibration when driving. Perhaps you need to mix company with slightly less common distinguished ffb connoseurs, peasant. 

Edited by Decks
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

They absolutely do match up. What doesn't match up is driving a car with air filled tyres and soft suspension over soft sandy and claylike surfaces and feeling some kind of constant gravel texture. 

So that clay like texture and soft sandyness you speak of... Where is the tramlining / where is the ffb pulling you into cambers? Which we can clearly see happening with our eyes on screen should be happening with the wheel but we have nothing like this. It is like were always driving on a brand new smooth pristine road just bulit so be it Gravel, Claylike surfaces, Sand or tarmac the ffb is severly lacking. 

You didnt answer what you drive in real life as i reckon whatever it is your so disconnected from the road, Im going to guess and either a 70's or 80's American Muscle Car or 80's90's American Pick Up truck? Or if your here in the UK id say something like a Dacia? 

Edited by FLAW3D

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Buckwilder said:

+1 

This is a ridiculous backs and forth.

The crazy thing is Codies have moved all the man power to F1 so this nonsense back and forth is going to go on for many weeks or even months. Whats even more crazy is the guy saying the FFB is amazing truly the best FFB ever doesnt even have the game! :classic_ninja:

What a mess. 

Edited by FLAW3D
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3 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

So that clay like texture and soft sandyness you speak of... Where is the tramlining / where is the ffb pulling you into cambers? Which we can clearly see happening with our eyes on screen should be happening with the wheel but we have nothing like this. It is like were always driving on a brand new smooth pristine road just bulit so be it Gravel, Claylike surfaces, Sand or tarmac the ffb is severly lacking. 

The force feedback should not be pulling you into cambers. A positive camber should cause more compression and should make the steering wheel heavier, and that's what happens. Adverse camber should have the opposite effect and that's what happens as well. 

I have very little recollection of tramlining, although I think I can occasionly feel some of that. However, you shouldn't expect a massive amount of force being exerted on a 1400 kilogram car traveling at 150 kph or more by some wheel tracks made in soft sand or clay, so the effect should not be overpowering and in most cases wheel tracks will exert no force on the wheels and there will consequently be nothing to feel through the steering wheel. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

The crazy thing is Codies have moved all the man power to F1 so this nonsense back and forth is going to go on for many weeks or even months. Whats even more crazy is the guy saying the FFB is amazing truly the best FFB ever doesnt even have the game! :classic_ninja:

What a mess. 

And some people only have the partial game. I, for example, can't access the New Zealand and Australia rallies, probably because I got my copy from some Moroccan wizard. 

Force feedback works really well though. 

Edited by CalvinCar

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9 minutes ago, CalvinCar said:

And some people only have the partial game. I, for example, can't access the New Zealand and Australia rallies, probably because I got my copy from some Moroccan wizard. 

Force feedback works really well though. 

You clearly have a different game than the rest of us - No New Zealand or Oz and great FFB! More like you've been smoking the wizard of Morocco. 

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26 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

You clearly have a different game than the rest of us - No New Zealand or Oz and great FFB! More like you've been smoking the wizard of Morocco. 

I did kind of suspect that I have a different game than the rest of you, which is why I mentioned the wizard of Morocco in the first place. 

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