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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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Posted (edited)

I just want to chime in here with my thoughts on FFB after going back and playing DR1 for a bit in anticipation of the Germany DLC. Bear in mind this is from someone on PC using a Logitech G29, so hardly high-end gear. Also, no config file tweaks in use, just the following FFB settings:

Self Aligning Torque: 40
Wheel Friction: 0
Tyre Friction: 45
Suspension: 65
Collision: 10

(FWIW I do recommend giving these settings a go, and sticking with them for a few days, because they might feel weird at first)

DR1 has kinda bad FFB. Really. Yes you can feel road texture, and sure, that's something that would be nice to have in DR2. It also does a good job of letting you know when the front wheels (or maybe all four wheels) are sliding.

But, the really important forces – Self Aligning Torque, and accurate feedback from the Suspension when you hit large bumps – just isn't there. The wheel seems to mostly just react to camber in the road, twisting back and forth in a way that doesn't really offer any useful feedback. It makes controlling slides more difficult than it should be, and makes driving on tarmac feel especially bad.

In DR2, meanwhile, I can really feel the pull of the front wheels when sliding, and thus get a feel for how much slip angle I  have and how much grip the front wheels have. I can also feel major bumps and dips, rocks etc. through the suspension – things that are important enough to affect the handling of the car, rather than trivial little stones and stuff that doesn't affect much.

I also want to compare FFB to Assetto Corsa, which I hope most people recognise as having good FFB. Maybe not the best, that's debatable, but certainly pretty good. Imo, DR2 does similar things to AC in terms of how the wheel responds when the car's weight is shifted around, and when you're in a controlled slide – it pulls in the direction you're sliding, and resists being corrected back to straight, same as AC.

One thing AC does better is offer a 'enhanced understeer' option, which exaggerates the looseness of the wheel when the front wheels lose grip. This is something that would be useful to have in DR2, in preference to DR1's maybe faked slip looseness, although as someone else mentioned, the effect in AC is also somewhat artificial.

Another thing AC does better is the general tightness and sharpness of FFB. It's possible this is just partly down to the kinds of cars and surfaces it simulates, but in comparison DR2 feels a bit loose, especially on tarmac; this probably contributes to the overall odd feeling of tarmac in the game. DR2 could certainly do with having more detail, sharpness, tightness, whatever you want to call it. However, it's fundamentally doing the right thing.

Edit: ok, after some more testing I'm not so sure about this. In many ways, AC is too harsh – going off-road results in very hard bangs and judders from my wheel, although admittedly I've used the FFBClip app to set FFB strength in AC to the maximum my wheel can reliably put out. It's certainly nothing like what I've experienced in a normal road car when driving off-road, and if DR2 was like this there would need to be some way of dampening the effect when driving off-road, otherwise I could see a lot of damaged FFB motors in the future. For nice smooth tarmac driving on racetracks it's good, lets you feel every tiny bump and nuance of the track; for off-road or less-than-perfect solid surfaces (cobblestones, rough tarmac) it would just be painful.

One other point. Someone mentioned not feeling anything in the wheel when landing a jump. Well, no, you probably wouldn't really, at least not twisting forces – and this is where the problems lie. Your wheel can't simulate the in-and-out and up-and-down motion of the wheel being shoved toward your face (along with the rest of the car) when you land. Some kind of fake jolt would be fine here I guess. However, it does accurately simulate what happens if you land with the car at an angle, or the wheels not straight – you should absolutely feel the wheel jolt from the Self Aligning Torque doing its thing.

Edited by afahoy
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I share the same opinion, the most important forces, like SAT, are there and are more accurate than ever. Having road texture would be an appreciated bonus, I had to boost Suspension to 150 to actually feel anything (using a T500RS) and tyre friction is somewhere around 100.

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1 hour ago, Riggs said:

I share the same opinion, the most important forces, like SAT, are there and are more accurate than ever. Having road texture would be an appreciated bonus, I had to boost Suspension to 150 to actually feel anything (using a T500RS) and tyre friction is somewhere around 100.

I tried the pad last night as was tired and couldnt be bothered bringing the rig out, I put suspension at 150 and you feel every single bump in the road so much more detail was coming through compared to my wheel. 

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2 hours ago, afahoy said:

Someone mentioned not feeling anything in the wheel when landing a jump. Well, no, you probably wouldn't really, at least not twisting forces – and this is where the problems lie. Your wheel can't simulate the in-and-out and up-and-down motion of the wheel being shoved toward your face (along with the rest of the car) when you land. Some kind of fake jolt would be fine here I guess.

Of course, the force felt when landing would be a linear (vertical) force on a real car, not a twisting force (torque). But a little "fake jolt" via the wheel torque would still be better than nothing here, as the difference in the direction of the force would hardly be noticeable. There's nothing wrong with using the torque motor for non-torque effects as long as the difference is hardly noticeable. In fact, all the physics-based suspension effects (which @CalvinCar loves so much, unlike canned vibrations) are linear, non-torque forces. Still, Calvin seems to find it okay that they are "faked" via the torque motor. 😉 It would result in a really strange, incomplete FFB if it was limited to actual torque forces only. Then parameters like Suspension and Collision would not even exist.

Also, this is a point where gravel texture vibration would really become useful beyond its immersion factor. You jump – texture vibration stops. You land – texture vibration starts again. A very simple, but clear signal. Also, texture vibration should change in its intensity depending on how many wheels are currently touching the ground (and, of course, depending on the type of road surface). This would provide another source of information to the driver. It's definitely more than a fancy "nice-to-have" effect.

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Posted (edited)

Here is what a real Rally Driver says about the FFB in DR 2.0 

"There are things you normally feel through your back and through your legs that now come through the steering wheel instead on this sim. The FFB does not feel it is fully based on the front axle, maybe on the rear or an overall car slip angle so you have to get your head around it a bit.

 

And here she is in her day job
 

 

Edited by FLAW3D

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Also, this is a point where gravel texture vibration would really become useful beyond its immersion factor. You jump – texture vibration stops. You land – texture vibration starts again. A very simple, but clear signal. Also, texture vibration should change in its intensity depending on how many wheels are currently touching the ground (and, of course, depending on the type of road surface). This would provide another source of information to the driver. It's definitely more than a fancy "nice-to-have" effect.

You already know when you're in the air because a) the sound of the tyres on the ground stops and b) the wheel goes completely loose.

If you think road texture is more than "nice to have", I'm not gonna argue – we all have different preferences and opinions. I'm certainly not against the idea, and I'd probably use it a little myself. It's just that I could quite happily live without it, is all.

Edited by afahoy

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, CalvinCar said:
5 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

So that clay like texture and soft sandyness you speak of... Where is the tramlining / where is the ffb pulling you into cambers? Which we can clearly see happening with our eyes on screen should be happening with the wheel but we have nothing like this. It is like were always driving on a brand new smooth pristine road just bulit so be it Gravel, Claylike surfaces, Sand or tarmac the ffb is severly lacking.

The force feedback should not be pulling you into cambers. A positive camber should cause more compression and should make the steering wheel heavier, and that's what happens. Adverse camber should have the opposite effect and that's what happens as well. 

I have very little recollection of tramlining, although I think I can occasionly feel some of that. However, you shouldn't expect a massive amount of force being exerted on a 1400 kilogram car traveling at 150 kph or more by some wheel tracks made in soft sand or clay, so the effect should not be overpowering and in most cases wheel tracks will exert no force on the wheels and there will consequently be nothing to feel through the steering wheel. 

We're not talking about a massive amount of force, we're talking about any force. Your front wheels (and therefore the steering wheel) should absolutely be getting pushed around by the shape of the road, bumps, dips, jumps, off/on camber corners, etc. The effect just needs to be there to convey what the road is making your front wheel do compared with what you would like them to do, it IS torsional and it IS real.

4 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

And some people only have the partial game. I, for example, can't access the New Zealand and Australia rallies, probably because I got my copy from some Moroccan wizard. 

Force feedback works really well though. 

Well I can't speak for the weird Moroccan version of the game you have, bought from a guy with an eye-patch and parrot, but the rest of us have Australia in game - and as an Australian who grew up driving in the country I can tell you there is nothing soft about most of our dirt roads. If I take my 3000kg Land Rover in 4WD and do 80km/h (max for 4WD) over the dirt road out the back I will sure as **** feel it through the wheel, and when you hit a series of corrugations you better be holding on because the wheel will wriggle right out of your hand if you don't.

I'm sure modern rally cars smooth that ride out significantly, but not every car in the game is modern - those historics should rattle your fillings out.

Quote

You didnt answer what you drive in real life as i reckon whatever it is your so disconnected from the road, Im going to guess and either a 70's or 80's American Muscle Car or 80's90's American Pick Up truck? Or if your here in the UK id say something like a Dacia? 

As someone who drives a 70's American Muscle Car daily, there is nothing disconnected about the (pretty basic) steering- quite the opposite! I have power steering but every bump comes through the wheel loud and clear.

Edited by JesseDeya
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52 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Here is what a real Rally Driver says about the FFB in DR 2.0 

"There are things you normally feel through your back and through your legs that now come through the steering wheel instead on this sim. The FFB does not feel it is fully based on the front axle, maybe on the rear or an overall car slip angle so you have to get your head around it a bit.

 

And here she is in her day job
 

 

Has she been verified as a distinguished ffb connoisseur though?

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58 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Here is what a real Rally Driver says about the FFB in DR 2.0 

"There are things you normally feel through your back and through your legs that now come through the steering wheel instead on this sim. The FFB does not feel it is fully based on the front axle, maybe on the rear or an overall car slip angle so you have to get your head around it a bit.

 

And here she is in her day job
 

 

And if you ask another rally driver you will get a slightly different answer. FFB feel is subjective. 

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19 hours ago, ChappieDog771 said:

I think the FFB of DR2 is one of the best too, especially in terms of SAT and feeling of suspentions.

but for people who think DR1 is better, just exaggerating some vibration according to the road texture might be a nice solution.Also, it may be good to emphasize the beginning of SAT a little bit.

Anyway, I never go back to DR1, because that FFB is so artificial, I feel now.

i agree, as long as they keep the fake rumble optional were good.. 

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I don´t feel that the FFB is so bad in DR2.

The feedback is probably close to what can be expected from a real rally car through the wheel.

But since driving a real car sends more senses into Your body, and those aren´t available at You gaming system, putting other feedback effects ontop of the real ones into the wheel, can greatly enhance the immersion.

It is those effects that DR2 seems to lack in my opnion. Effects like a very slight road rumble, understeer enhancements, etc.

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@afahoy You are right about AC being too harsh off road if you consider / compare to a modern rally car with its own power steering.  AC started off as a hardcore tarmac sim and some of those tarmac cars have several times more resistance due to weak power steering or lack there of.  Specifically most of the top track race cars have pretty much opposite PS to a rally car on gravel etc.   So that's the difference.   Even rally drivers will have some subjective feedback on force feedback but at least overall they will be closer to the facts than someone who assumes rallying is just track racing off road.

my2c anyway

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I thought i would have a little go at some diy ffb, strapping a bass shaker to my osw and using sim commander, to get the required effects, and the results are really good, decent road texture

and feedback2343.thumb.JPG.83b7d9e886bd559a38bdf7e97f43e05d.JPG combined with the games original ffb the effects are very encouraging. 

59401257_885915488417688_5686190641504059392_n.jpg

58825777_321182295217575_2924112454940098560_n.jpg

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On 5/1/2019 at 3:03 PM, ChristinaMc said:

"We're not fixing FFB as it's not broken for us"

We're definitely making changes in this area - but OP is right that we had to do a lot of investigative work and talk to a lot of people to ascertain what was 'missing'. Also, as we've alluded to elsewhere - not everyone has been affected/been discontent with the FFB out of the box, so we've had to discuss about how to implement it as well (and that's still something we're trying to define). Please bear in mind that we also have a wealth of data here about people's wheels, settings, etc - so it's all a big balancing act to please as many people as possible.

Just wondering who were those interviewed peoples who had those opinions what is missing or what is not 🤔
Sounds like investigation is done and now just code changes to game?
It would be nice to hear what kind of improvements they ended up.

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16 minutes ago, SimFunny said:

 

Just wondering who were those interviewed peoples who had those opinions what is missing or what is not 🤔
Sounds like investigation is done and now just code changes to game?
It would be nice to hear what kind of improvements they ended up.

I definitely disagree with it being nice to hear more details on what changes they have.  Too much time taken away from development which is WIP.  We got enough detail now to wait for the release of the changes.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, bn880 said:

I definitely disagree with it being nice to hear more details on what changes they have.  Too much time taken away from development which is WIP.  We got enough detail now to wait for the release of the changes.

What a silly comment and thumb down :classic_biggrin:
Earlier they wrote that changes will be tested by some persons before release it to patch.
Maby those beta testers are same peoples who they interviewed.

We got detail of what? Nothing at all is my opinion, and time away from development...just by writing few words about what kind of changes we are supposed to get in near future (weeks, months...who know).

However those interviews did not happen at in their community which would be one of the logical places to get data...there seems to be some specialists :classic_wink:

Edited by SimFunny
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Posted (edited)

T300RS, PC -  there a lot of feedback from wheel (don't know how to show you that i don't have any problems with FFB). As you can see, i feel even small rocks through FFB, FFB in Australia is brutal.  (SAT only 35, Suspension 100, tyre/wheel friction 150. Thrustmaster - Overall - 80, Constant - 100, Periodic - 80, spring and damper - 0)

 

Edited by virgism
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45 minutes ago, virgism said:

T300RS, PC -  there a lot of feedback from wheel (don't know how to show you that i don't have any problems with FFB). As you can see, i feel even small rocks through FFB, FFB in Australia is brutal.  (SAT only 35, Suspension 100, tyre/wheel friction 150. Thrustmaster - Overall - 80, Constant - 100, Periodic - 80, spring and damper - 0)

 

People on this forum seem to think tyre friction should be set to 0 although that goes completely against what Codies say which was 100.

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4 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

People on this forum seem to think tyre friction should be set to 0 although that goes completely against what Codies say which was 100.

Wheel friction should usually be set to 0 (or very low), but not tyre friction. Wheel friction only seems to be the general resistance of the steering wheel against turning (use it only if your wheel is generally too easy to turn). Tyre friction is the resistance of the tyres against turning (most noticeable at very low speeds or standstill), which makes sense to simulate.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Wheel friction should usually be set to 0 (or very low), but not tyre friction. Wheel friction only seems to be the general resistance of the steering wheel against turning (use it only if your wheel is generally too easy to turn). Tyre friction is the resistance of the tyres against turning (most noticeable at very low speeds or standstill), which makes sense to simulate.

Wasnt sure what one it was i knew it was the one after sat.

If supposed to be 0 why do Codies have it 100 or is it wheel dependant what that value is set to by them?

Edited by FLAW3D

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1 minute ago, FLAW3D said:

Wasnt sure what one it was i knew it was the one after sat.

If supposed to be 0 why do Codies have it 100 or is it wheel dependant what that value is set to by them?

All the sliders are just set to 100 by default.

Not good defaults imo, and it was the same situation in DR1.

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i got a tspc ,tried those settings ,i believe sat is way to low ,i agree with the others about wheel friction i have syspension on 150 with w.f ,sat on 60 ,tried argentina ,i can feel this ,that this guy feels ,its turns nicely but no info from the bumps of the road ,i believe he has change values on the xml ,thats why he has that reaction on wheel.. 

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If they don't fix ffb, it'll show that they even don't have a clue about what they are doing. Even some random guy from street

could tell them what is wrong with DR 2.0's ffb. And that sorry babbling about "how everything is ok, we don't change anything, ppl just are stupid" is

some most pathetic **** what I've ever read from game developers, maybe they should stop making these if they are so incompetent.

 

It just kinda stupid that rally game is **** with wheel, and that's why you have to use controller.

 

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On 5/1/2019 at 7:46 PM, JesseDeya said:

At least VR is still coming but I’m concerned for the FFB implementation ever realising the games potential. 

After they announced the VR version I bought DR 2 Deluxe only to get a game full of bugs and the weakest FFB implementation I played in the past years. From my point of view in VR the FFB is even more important, so the uninformative FFB will not help to immerse in DR 2.

Think about landing after a large jump in VR and feel nothing at all in your wheel ... sometimes I think they accidentally implemented the FFB code of their newest hovercraft racing game.

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noob question isnt sat the value of the feedback for the game ?

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