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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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1 hour ago, virgism said:

IRL you can drive car with one hand over jump. Now try to do this in DR1 :)

 

BTW, two weeks ago, I invited 2 my friends to play some sim games - DR1, DR2, Asseto Corsa and RBR.  They liked all games, except DR1 - theu don't understood behavior of a car (and both have more than 30 years of driving experience). DR1 is fun to drive, but it's not a sim - cars have no weight, FFB is randomly created. Sadly, a lot of people are thinking, that DR1 has good FFB.

Community asked for realism, CM shipped (they invited two good rally drivers and Jon Armstrong  did an excellent job) - but seems community doesn't like realism at all, they want just strong, fake FFB.

After almost 15 we have real competitor to RBR, but nobody wants it. Sad.

 

Maybe CM need to create Dirt Rally Moon Edition, with moon physics and fake FFB - to please DR1 fans.

Pretty much sums it up. It's a pretty sad state of affairs over here with a handful of individuals lamenting the disappearance of a few fake effects that weren't even that good in the first place. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Buckwilder said:

S (self) A (aligning) T (torque)

This is the primary setting, that adjusts the wheels inclination to self right itself in the face of forward momentum or inertia. If you turn your wheel slightly while driving a real car, and then let go of the wheel - it straightens. That is self aligning torque. This is arguably the most important aspect of FFB, but only effective insofar as what it sets out to achieve. Other forces, like suspension, Tyre friction, and Tyre slip, all play (are supposed to play) an important role in completing the FFB picture. These elements, are largely absent in DR2 for most wheels despite their presence in the menu’s. In my case for example (using a Thrustmaster TX), the option to adjust wheel friction and tyre slip (absent completely) and tyre friction (greyed out) are non adjustable. Wheel friction is a damper that adds weight to the wheel rotation. It should always be set to zero. Damping is best done on the hardware itself. Tyre friction and suspension are the key elements to round out the picture. Both of these are improperly implemented in this game in its current state, especially for users like me with a TX where the tyre friction option can’t be adjusted.

On console's we cannot set values on the Thrustmaster everything is through the software so what are we meant to set to? Is this why it's on in game as most people will be the console version? While PC players say turn it off. 

Edited by FLAW3D

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Posted (edited)

i used to work on highway constructions ,i have been driving fast to road conditions you cant imazine not like the pro wrc drivers of course but sometimes over a 100km on gravel cause i ******* love this thing ,the roads were  worst of the acropolis ,and worst than argentina ,as they were in construction

i have drive to those  with i20 ,daster,terios,rav 4 ,kingcab,zafira, vitara,and a few more ,as they were my working cars 

with the i20 ,daster,terios that the syspensions were new and high and somehow soft   i couldnt feel a thing except 2 things on the steering wheel  the hard rocks that were on gravel and the sliding on wet conditions and to gravel that wasnt been worked with the COMPACTOR,the steering wheel was not going right and left except on these 2 conditions

even on jumps the steering was straight ,and it was depending on the power i was using to hold it ,and in a lot of situations i was holding it with one hand ,cause im not a brake guy but a down gear braking style  

,the other cars that their syspension were old and stiff i could feel all this to but harder than the new 

what i want is the gap on the hard rocks and still looking for it on settings cause the sliding is there 

my conclusion is maybe we are overreacted from what we want ,included me.....

i have touch the xml file as many claiming that is a fix by overboosting the power in the beggining ,for me yeap with that i had the gap but also my wheel was going to the left but now i have it default 

right now on my tspc profile i have place everything on 100 ,and im trying to find the best on two things tyres friction and syspension ,to give me that feeling i used to have when i was driving on those conditions ...i have tried 50/50 ,you feel something ,but not the right thing ,but whne you place it over 100 it becomes unreal ...

Edited by nasoduko
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5 hours ago, ChappieDog771 said:

In my eyes, those who are complaining about DR2's FFB doesn’t seem to be trying to understand DR2’s FFB with little effort.

If one first needs to understand FFB in order to enjoy it, this is already proof that the FFB does not fulfill its primary job: approximating the intuitive feeling of actually driving a car. If FFB was done well, you would feel at home immediately. This has nothing to do with being "conditioned" by other games with (allegedly) bad or "fake" FFB, but with the similarity between the FFB effects and actual driving in real life. The details can always be discussed and optimized, but the overall feeling must be right, and this is what DR2 currently does not deliver (in the opinion of many of us).

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, virgism said:

Another video - gravel (same as in Poland) - as you see, you don't need a lot of force, to hold wheel. At 3:30 he evens says "Hi" to friends -spectators, when turning wheel with one hand.

 

 

5 hours ago, virgism said:

BMW on very bad road - as you see, you don;t need a lot of force, just fast corrections:

 

For me, physics and FFB : RBR = DR2 > DR1 > WRC 7 > Dirt 4

I seriously don't know what you are trying to prove with these videos. It's almost as if you couldn't make my argument for me any better.

In both these videos within the first minute of driving you can clearly see the wheel a) oscillating subtly left/right a result of the road surface and b) kicking when the car hits more serious bumps and dips. The driver is able to feel and control them, exactly as I currently can't in DR 2.0.

5 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

it seems that the devs at codemasters agree with me, and they disagree with you, which has nothing to do with horses, high or low or whatever. 

I'm not sure anybody agrees with your specific argument, and I'm almost 100% certain nobody here agrees with your toxic attitude. Please don't pretend for a second that the Codemasters devs would have your back, it's abundantly clear they don't have anyone's back, but if they had to pick allies you would be at the bottom of the list.

 

Edited by JesseDeya
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1 hour ago, nasoduko said:

with the i20 ,daster,terios that the syspensions were new and high and somehow soft   i couldnt feel a thing except 2 things on the steering wheel  the hard rocks that were on gravel and the sliding on wet conditions and to gravel that wasnt been worked with the COMPACTOR,the steering wheel was not going right and left except on these 2 conditions

As explained multiple times above, FFB also needs to simulate forces that have nothing to do with the wheel going left or right (torque forces). And these linear (up/down) forces from suspension can be felt very well both in the wheel and in the seat of a real car. I tested this very carefully and consciously in my 3-year old Dacia Dokker, which probably is quite average. I can feel every little irregularity of a tarmac surface, both in the wheel and in the seat. And this was on a regular road, not gravel. Even different types of tarmac feel different in the wheel and seat (and no, I'm not just fooled by the different sound. I focused solely on the vibrations felt in my hands). Not simulating this makes the FFB feel dead.

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4 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

As explained multiple times above, FFB also needs to simulate forces that have nothing to do with the wheel going left or right (torque forces). And these linear (up/down) forces from suspension can be felt very well both in the wheel and in the seat of a real car. I tested this very carefully and consciously in my 3-year old Dacia Dokker, which probably is quite average. I can feel every little irregularity of a tarmac surface, both in the wheel and in the seat. And this was on a regular road, not gravel. Even different types of tarmac feel different in the wheel and seat (and no, I'm not just fooled by the different sound. I focused solely on the vibrations felt in my hands). Not simulating this makes the FFB feel dead.

Indeed and you could probably feel this vibration on your windscreen and roof as well as it is going through the whole vehicle and not necesserilly the wheel only . i personally dont mind it not beeing in the ffb effects of this game though..  but luckily codies allready confirmed it would become available as optional ffb effect.. So i guess that means everybody happy (!?) 

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sorry mate but my seat leon with turbo ,with  the koni fsd for suspension i dont feel the up and downs on the wheel ,but only the hard bumps ,even when the tarmac change sudden high level i can feel it on my seat but not on my wheel ,but i guess the suspension that  koni fsd provides is lower the syspension of dokker ,and it differnet of feeling something on the wheel ,and sometyhing makes the wheel slightly turn cause of something ....

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

If one first needs to understand FFB in order to enjoy it, this is already proof that the FFB does not fulfill its primary job: approximating the intuitive feeling of actually driving a car. If FFB was done well, you would feel at home immediately.

I actually disagree with this.  We are missing G forces and so the FFB won't be natural and will always be a bit of an art and not an exact science and will never be natural.  Simple as that.  ignore facts at your own peril.  (the fact is that in real life you drive according to vision and G force feel more than wheel feedback.  in rallying wheel feedback is almost entirely useless besides the caster effect and hitting nasty nasty bumps)

Edited by bn880
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

If one first needs to understand FFB in order to enjoy it, this is already proof that the FFB does not fulfill its primary job: approximating the intuitive feeling of actually driving a car. If FFB was done well, you would feel at home immediately. This has nothing to do with being "conditioned" by other games with (allegedly) bad or "fake" FFB, but with the similarity between the FFB effects and actual driving in real life. The details can always be discussed and optimized, but the overall feeling must be right, and this is what DR2 currently does not deliver (in the opinion of many of us).

As I said before, I was also puzzled by the difference with DR1 in the first play of DR2.  However, after playing for a while, I realized that I became able to grasp the behavior of the car and the road surface condition more accurately than DR1.  This process is "understanding" in my word.  And now I think FFB of DR1 is quite unrealistic.  Of course I don’t think that everyone would go through this process, but I expect some people might have the same experience by playing DR2 for a while.

Edited by ChappieDog771
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13 minutes ago, nasoduko said:

sorry mate but my seat leon with turbo ,with  the koni fsd for suspension i dont feel the up and downs on the wheel ,but only the hard bumps ,even when the tarmac change sudden high level i can feel it on my seat but not on my wheel ,but i guess the suspension that  koni fsd provides is lower the syspension of dokker ,and it differnet of feeling something on the wheel ,and sometyhing makes the wheel slightly turn cause of something ....

It surely depends on the suspension how much of it you can feel in the wheel. But you do feel it in a real rally car, as you can see in all interior video footage, where the car (and the camera) always vibrates visibly on rough tracks. Even if most of the feeling comes through the seat, the sim wheel needs to convey that sensation to some degree (unless you can afford a vibrating seat).

11 minutes ago, bn880 said:

I actually disagree with this.  We are missing G forces and so the FFB won't be natural and will always be a bit of an art and not an exact science and will never be natural.  Simple as that.  ignore facts at your own peril.  (the fact is that in real life you drive according to vision and G force feel more than wheel feedback.  in rallying wheel feedback is almost entirely useless besides the caster effect and hitting nasty nasty bumps)

Of course we cannot simulate the real overall feeling very well, at least not without a full motion rig. But that's all the more reason to have the wheel simulate anything it possibly can to get us closer. But this seems to be the central point where some of us disagree (including Codemasters, obviously).

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5 minutes ago, ChappieDog771 said:

As I said before, I was also puzzled by the difference with DR1 in the first play of DR2.  However, after playing for a while, I realized that I became able to grasp the behavior of the car and the road surface condition more accurately than DR1.  This process is "understanding" in my word.  And now I think FFB of DR1 is quite unrealistic.  Of course I don’t think that everyone would go through this process, but I expect some people might have the same experience by playing DR2 for a while.

Fair enough. But even if the parts of FFB already implemented in DR2 are better than in DR1 (which I cannot really judge, as I'm still a lousy rally driver), I don't think it would be ruined by adding the things that are missing, as long as everything is properly adjustable.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

It surely depends on the suspension how much of it you can feel in the wheel. But you do feel it in a real rally car, as you can see in all interior video footage, where the car (and the camera) always vibrates visibly on rough tracks. Even if most of the feeling comes through the seat, the sim wheel needs to convey that sensation to some degree (unless you can afford a vibrating seat).

 

and in formula 1 they feel it more ,but there the syspension stifness is hard as hell ,i dont think that on Argentina they go with stiff suspension ,,,,

for the vibration off the seat i use 2 bass shakers ,and as i said i do want to feel more on the wheel ,but the reality is different .. you see on gravel they go through parts and they dont have any vibration on the wheel but the driver and co are dancing lambada ...

Edited by nasoduko
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Posted (edited)

Wow, where did all the "the FFB is actually perfect" feedback come from out of the blue? Meanwhile Steam reviews are still mixed, largely due to FFB feedback.

edit: What really grinds my gears is when people such as CalvinCar don't just give their own feedback (which of course is perfectly fine) but they go out of their way to explain how everyone not holding the same opinion is wrong, ignorant, inexperienced, etc. I don't care what your feedback is whether it's that the game is the pinnacle of sim racing or it's shovelware garbage, just post how YOU feel and leave it there. Even some light debate over specific points is fine, but don't actively attack other viewpoints.

Reminds me of this user who posted a lot in Dirt 4's first few months who slavishly defended its physics and aggressively attacked anyone who disagreed to the point of turning into a troll about it. Now I'm seeing this kind of behavior again...

Edited by ShodanCat
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15 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

Wow, where did all the "the FFB is actually perfect" feedback come from out of the blue? Meanwhile Steam reviews are still mixed, largely due to FFB feedback.

They're bein paid to say that

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1 minute ago, watzcoc said:

They're bein paid to say that

Don't make claims like that if you can't back it up, thanks.

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FFB is still unchanged and missing beside the SAT forces. That the forces of the road are not existing could also be a problem with not existing road mesh for the physics. Maybe the road bumps and degradation are only graphics and the road is smooth as a new tarmac road. The only road feedback is coming from the cattle grids and that is completely oversaturated.

If there will be no changes then DR 2 will faster abandoned by players as you can discuss. 

 

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12 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

Wow, where did all the "the FFB is actually perfect" feedback come from out of the blue? Meanwhile Steam reviews are still mixed, largely due to FFB feedback.

It's 3 or 4 squeaky voices in this thread and nothing more, ignore them.

23% (78 votes) of people in the pole I constructed wanted FFB fixed before anything else in the very next patch, ie: NOW.

 

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This comment from devs pretty much explains whats missing for some people:

"And finally, just on the point of FFB: with DiRT Rally 2.0 we very much focused on simulating the effects that come through the front wheels as purely as possible, and we (and external validators) were pleased with how authentic the simulation felt in that regard. However on previous games, rather than just science, we used a little more art in some of the effects (especially with regards to the chassis effects, environmental effects, etc) - and that's the area where we've seen the most feedback."

But guess what!?  they also stated it will become available as optional.. so everyone will be happy after all..  (ok sorry.. im repeating now..) 

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11 minutes ago, thatDutchguy83 said:

so everyone will be happy after all..

... months after release.

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15 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

It's 3 or 4 squeaky voices in this thread and nothing more, ignore them.

23% (78 votes) of people in the pole I constructed wanted FFB fixed before anything else in the very next patch, ie: NOW.

 

Which is biased, because most people happy with what they got dont come to internet forums to complain or leave their opinion of what to change. 

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8 minutes ago, thatDutchguy83 said:

Which is biased, because most people happy with what they got dont come to internet forums to complain or leave their opinion of what to change. 

True, but FFB has topped the leaderboards in every thread containing a poll about what users would like improved. 

 

So of all the issues, it is the most popular. Personally the ai is my biggest issue, but i can’t deny that more users want ffb addressed than the ai. But both would be nice

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6 minutes ago, Pieman99 said:

True, but FFB has topped the leaderboards in every thread containing a poll about what users would like improved. 

 

So of all the issues, it is the most popular. Personally the ai is my biggest issue, but i can’t deny that more users want ffb addressed than the ai. But both would be nice

AI in Rallycross or legend/master AI? because Rallycross will get "human only"  option in next patch if im correct.

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1 minute ago, thatDutchguy83 said:

 

AI in Rallycross or legend/master AI? because Rallycross will get "human only"  option in next patch if im correct.

Sorry, i meant master AI in Rally mode. 

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6 minutes ago, Pieman99 said:

Personally the ai is my biggest issue

I completely agree on that point.

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