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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Peter Mathen said:

FFB is still unchanged and missing beside the SAT forces. That the forces of the road are not existing could also be a problem with not existing road mesh for the physics. Maybe the road bumps and degradation are only graphics and the road is smooth as a new tarmac road.

You can see that this is not the case quite easily by watching what the wheels do when you drive along the road. They bounce up and down over bumps exactly as you'd expect them to on a rough gravel road.

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If there will be no changes then DR 2 will faster abandoned by players as you can discuss. 

Maybe a few people for whom amazing FFB is super important; the rest of us just got used to it and are fine with it. It really isn't that bad, now that I've had time to settle in with it, and especially since I compared it to DR1 and Assetto Corsa.

Edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying it's perfect – it still feels a bit loose on tarmac, and it's hard to find the right level for SAT: a good value for gravel feels too weak for tarmac, while a nice solid tarmac value feels far too strong for gravel. This is likely tied into the physics of gravel and tarmac, though, so I don't expect it to be an easy thing to fix.

Edited by afahoy
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I'd love to be paid for speaking my mind here, so Codies, I'm here, the inbox is always open for you :classic_happy:  Love these explanations. Everyone who has a different opinion, must be paid by the enemy (ok, polemicising here :classic_tongue:). The world can be so simple. 

 

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1 hour ago, ShodanCat said:

What really grinds my gears is when people such as CalvinCar don't just give their own feedback (which of course is perfectly fine) but they go out of their way to explain how everyone not holding the same opinion is wrong, ignorant, inexperienced, etc. I don't care what your feedback is whether it's that the game is the pinnacle of sim racing or it's shovelware garbage, just post how YOU feel and leave it there. Even some light debate over specific points is fine, but don't actively attack other viewpoints.

Reminds me of this user who posted a lot in Dirt 4's first few months who slavishly defended its physics and aggressively attacked anyone who disagreed to the point of turning into a troll about it. Now I'm seeing this kind of behavior again...

Like you say, he's not the only one. There's a guy with the opposing view who responds aggressively to anyone and anything he disagrees with, like his own personal honour is at stake. They both need to take it down a notch and agree to disagree when they disagree.

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I'd like to add that after driving a few australian stages I think it was not accurate to say I can feel little stones and I didn't want to provoke anyone, but I can definitely feel bumps in the road through the suspension as I ramped up the suspension setting. At the end of the day the FFB isn't really that bad as many said before and if some 'fake effects' wouldn't come from the physics I'm not sure if I'd use that option if Codies implemented it in a future patch tbf. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, richie said:

I'd like to add that after driving a few australian stages I think it was not accurate to say I can feel little stones and I didn't want to provoke anyone, but I can definitely feel bumps in the road through the suspension as I ramped up the suspension setting. At the end of the day the FFB isn't really that bad as many said before and if some 'fake effects' wouldn't come from the physics I'm not sure if I'd use that option if Codies implemented it in a future patch tbf. 

What wheel do you have...what platform are you on ... what settings do you have?

We keep hearing from a few that that ffb is amazing yet what has come to light is all wheels and all platforms are the exact same settings. 

That suggests to me that codies have no clue what the ffb should feel like and instead if you think SAT 34 is more realistic than SAT 37 then you know what your right... any driver we have paying us /  helping us is wrong and in actual fact it should be set to 100. 

We should be at a stage where Jon Armstrong went through every platform and every wheel and configured them all....instead we are left with 100 every value and every platform... ******* mental. 

 No way in hell is Codies pushing realistic ffb. The Mini feels the same as the R5 Fiesta ffs. 

Codies are miles and miles behind SMS or Kunos.

Edited by FLAW3D
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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure if Kunos and SMS are the reference. Not even sure if they're competitors, so why bring them up? You wouldn't compare football to tennis either just because in both sports you need to hit a ball. 

I don't know why everything is set to 100 from the start, but I guess there was some reasoning behind it. Expecting Codies to get every single wheel, test it and set a starting value for every FFB effect, is absurd. I'm on a CSW 2.5 using SAT 65 and suspension 135, Xbox. 

I feel the discussion here is useless for quite a few reasons. The whole thread started with wrong assumptions. The FFB is neither broken nor had there been no communication from the team, plus people are basically arguing about taste all the time. Not bad ≠ amazing btw.

Edited by richie
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Only issues for me with ffb is that some cars tend to have huge "deadzone" where there is no "weight" on the wheel, it feels almost same as driving old american car which has play in steering box. :classic_laugh: This is little bit annoying and makes it hard to drive with high surface degradation, as you have no idea what the front tires do. Other issue for me; wheel gets too light on high speeds with some cars, sure that is kinda what happens irl, but there is no friction at all on the wheel sometimes when blasting through long straights. + Mild engine vibration on the wheel would be nice, but otherwise I really like the ffb.

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Posted (edited)

i'm confused about news to the ffb: two weeks ago i read that they are completely overhauling the ffb and yesterday i read in the steam community that the devs said the ffb isn't broken at all and won't change. What's going to happen?

Edited by Makromatic
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21 minutes ago, richie said:

I'm not sure if Kunos and SMS are the reference. Not even sure if they're competitors, why even bring them up? You wouldn't compare football with tennis either just because in both sports you need to hit a ball.

Yup, small developers of niche racing games are definitely not the competition for Codemasters when it comes to FFB. 🤣 Cars are cars, whether they drive on smooth race tracks, street circuits, dirt, snow, ice or all of the above they still have basically the same components, reacting through four wheel, providing sensations a driver has to react to, through literally six components a wheel, accelerator, brake, clutch, gearbox and handbrake. Football vs Tennis this is not.

21 minutes ago, richie said:

I don't know why everything is set to 100 from the start, but I guess there was some reasoning behind it. Expecting Codies to get every single wheel, test it and set a starting value for every FFB effect, is absurd. I'm on a CSW 2.5 using SAT 65 and suspension 135, Xbox. 

Yeah, it's mad to think they might test the 20 or so wheels they say they support. In the 5 years they have had. I mean if you're making a driving game who has time to test steering wheels?? We got advertising to do!

21 minutes ago, richie said:

I feel the discussion here is useless for quite a few reasons. The whole thread started with wrong assumptions. The FFB is neither broken nor had there been no communication from the team, plus people are basically arguing about taste all the time. Not bad ≠ amazing btw.

The FFB being "broken" was not the subject of this thread. Sure, it asked for a fix, but the specifics of what needs to be 'fixed' vary from person to person. If the FFB is missing enough detail that you don't enjoy the game, then it's "broken" for you, even if it technically "works".

The communication on the topic has - until at least recently -  been superficial at best. Certainly at the time this thread was started it was completely valid.

I'm trying a bunch of cars on a bunch of tracks and finding that in some cases I'm getting FFB that is "ok", but not in every case. I'm beginning to think the main problem they have is that the FFB settings sliders don't have enough range, some sliders seem to do nothing, difference tracks have different values (ie: a bump in Australia might feel stronger than the same size and shape bump in Sweden), and there is a tough relationship between SAT and other effects.

The SAT is very good, I will always give them that, but they need to complete the rest of the equation.

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maybe i shouldn't say "broken", bad bad word. Yes some more details would be good.

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so i tried my ts-pc  with this 

Self Aligning Torque: 45

Wheel Friction: 0

Tyre Friction: 50

Suspension: 70

Collision: 10

profile full 100 no xml touch 

 

and those 

Self Aligning Torque: 55

Wheel Friction: 0

Tyre Friction: 150

Suspension: 150

Collision: 10

on argentina with the default setup ,no difference on the surface feeling ,but on the second values more heavy wheel ,no other difference...even with 20km/h even with 100km/h... 

also on the ts-pc xml it has that value to  ffb_friction="1.5" ,anyone know what is it ,and what happens if i change that ?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, richie said:

I'm not sure if Kunos and SMS are the reference. Not even sure if they're competitors, so why bring them up? You wouldn't compare football to tennis either just because in both sports you need to hit a ball. 

I don't know why everything is set to 100 from the start, but I guess there was some reasoning behind it. Expecting Codies to get every single wheel, test it and set a starting value for every FFB effect, is absurd. I'm on a CSW 2.5 using SAT 65 and suspension 135, Xbox. 

I feel the discussion here is useless for quite a few reasons. The whole thread started with wrong assumptions. The FFB is neither broken nor had there been no communication from the team, plus people are basically arguing about taste all the time. Not bad ≠ amazing btw.

How odd you dont know how i can compare various racing titles and ffb as its as different as comparing football and tennis. What utter tripe thats just Codies defence forceness going into over drive. 

Go play PCARS2 rallycross then compare it to Dirt Rally 2.0... SMS ffb is miles ahead...god knows why you think they shouldnt be compared. Id put money on it if 2.0 had the better feedback you would have no problem comparing them.

Edited by FLAW3D
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

Yup, small developers of niche racing games are definitely not the competition for Codemasters when it comes to FFB. 🤣 Cars are cars, whether they drive on smooth race tracks, street circuits, dirt, snow, ice or all of the above they still have basically the same components, reacting through four wheel, providing sensations a driver has to react to, through literally six components a wheel, accelerator, brake, clutch, gearbox and handbrake. Football vs Tennis this is not.

 

You mean, in both cases we have a spheric shaped object so let's compare them. Rally and circuit racing are two different types of motorsport, just as Tennis and Football are two different ball sports. Just because DR2.0 is pretty much the only rally simulation out there you can't just take ACC as a comparison, because cars. Just my opinion. 

1 hour ago, JesseDeya said:

 

Yeah, it's mad to think they might test the 20 or so wheels they say they support. In the 5 years they have had. I mean if you're making a driving game who has time to test steering wheels?? We got advertising to do!

 

I don't think developers have the time we would like them to have. Codies are a business enterprise, asking them to test all the wheels instead of advertising their product, is mad, yes, and nonsense. Anyway, I agree with you that we just disagree. 

Btw for the first time you've acknowledged how good and important SAT is. This kind of stuff is an ingredient for a good discussion, but a bit too late in my view :classic_tongue:

Edited by richie
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, richie said:

You mean, in both cases we have a spheric shaped object so let's compare them. Rally and circuit racing are two different types of motorsport, just as Tennis and Football are two different ball sports. Just because DR2.0 is pretty much the only rally simulation out there you can't just take ACC as a comparison, because cars. Just my opinion.

Your opinion is noted.

Quote

I don't think developers have the time we would like them to have. Codies are a business enterprise, asking them to test all the wheels instead of advertising their product, is mad, yes, and nonsense. Anyway, I agree with you that we just disagree.

Did I just read that?

You seriously think it's mad that Codemasters test wheels - for their racing game? I'm pretty sure the advertising can wait until the product is tested... at least that is how it should work.

Quote

Btw for the first time you've acknowledged how good and important SAT. This kind of stuff is an ingredient for a good discussion, but a bit too late in my view :classic_tongue:

Not the first time, not by a long shot. My message has been consistent, the FFB needs detail and nuance, not that it had no redeeming qualities.

Edited by JesseDeya
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

How odd you dont know how i can compare various racing titles and ffb as its as different as comparing football and tennis. What utter tripe thats just Codies defence forceness going into over drive. 

Go play PCARS2 rallycross then compare it to Dirt Rally 2.0... SMS ffb is miles ahead...god knows why you think they shouldnt be compared. Id put money on it if 2.0 had the better feedback you would have no problem comparing them.

 I think rallycross in PC2 is terrible. Way too slidey, never liked it. SMS have put a lot of effort in some parts of the 'disciplines' they offer because some of them were/are part of their e-sports program, so rallycross got a lot of attention. If you try LMP2s you'll notice the same, superb FFB. Then you drive the 935 and you see the difference, so they've been very selective in terms of FFB love. It varies from car to car. Again, not enough time.  

 

Edited by richie
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, richie said:

 I think rallycross in PC2 is terrible. Way too slidey, never liked it. SMS have put a lot of effort in some parts of the 'disciplines' they offer because some of them were/are part of their e-sports program, so rallycross got a lot of attention. If you try LMP2s you'll notice the same, superb FFB. Then you drive the 935 and you see the difference, so they've been very selective in terms of FFB love. It varies from car to car. Again, not enough time.  

 

SMS have over 200 cars in the game with 50 tracks its easy to see why some cars may not quite be there.

Codies have 50 odd cars and 6 tracks now 8. No excuses.

Also we are not comparing what rallycross you like better but the ffb of the rallycross.

Edited by FLAW3D
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Posted (edited)

I think I just found a way out of this quagmire. How about you guys make your own rally game from the ground up. That way you'll be able to make exactly the kind of force feedback you like. Even the kind of ffb that vibrates your steering wheels to smithereens and breaks your arms while you're driving on soft, wet sand. 

Really, this is the only way that you guys can be fully satisfied. There simply is no other way, especially given the fact that devs of sim titles have been moving more and more towards pure simulation-derived ffb for quite some time now. 

Edited by CalvinCar
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9 hours ago, richie said:

I feel the discussion here is useless for quite a few reasons. The whole thread started with wrong assumptions. The FFB is neither broken nor had there been no communication from the team, plus people are basically arguing about taste all the time. Not bad ≠ amazing btw.

It certainly did start with wrong assumptions. But that's ok, it happens. A more serious issue is the sheer amount of resistance that some individuals here are putting up when those assumptions are being corrected. 

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19 hours ago, richie said:

I'm not sure if Kunos and SMS are the reference.

latest?cb=20150911191100
 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, CalvinCar said:

I think I just found a way out of this quagmire. How about you guys make your own rally game from the ground up. That way you'll be able to make exactly the kind of force feedback you like. Even the kind of ffb that vibrates your steering wheels to smithereens and breaks your arms while you're driving on soft, wet sand. 

Really, this is the only way that you guys can be fully satisfied. There simply is no other way, especially given the fact that devs of sim titles have been moving more and more towards pure simulation-derived ffb for quite some time now. 

If we did make our own game youd only pirate it like DR2.0 and end up with half the game. 

Edited by FLAW3D
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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

How odd you dont know how i can compare various racing titles and ffb as its as different as comparing football and tennis. What utter tripe thats just Codies defence forceness going into over drive. 

Go play PCARS2 rallycross then compare it to Dirt Rally 2.0... SMS ffb is miles ahead...god knows why you think they shouldnt be compared. Id put money on it if 2.0 had the better feedback you would have no problem comparing them.

Tried both this weekend, cant say PC2 RX is that much better on FFB, weight transition is kind of the same..  again its surface rumble thats more present in PC2 and it feels stronger in total. The cars in DR2 feel alot more aggressive as well as responsive compared to PC2 rallycross imo. i didnt change any setup in both games tho.   

Edited by thatDutchguy83
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, thatDutchguy83 said:

Tried both this weekend, cant say PC2 RX is that much better on FFB, weight transition is kind of the same..  again its surface rumble thats more present in PC2 and it feels stronger in total. The cars in DR2 feel alot more aggressive as well as responsive compared to PC2 rallycross imo. i didnt change any setup in both games tho.   

Yeah its much easier in 2.0...cars can stop so much quicker you can leave braking to the last minute all the time and it's more jump in and play but youd expect that with the SMS title being more hardcore. 

You say its not that much better ffb wise for you but its a  2 year old game now and Codies should be at least matching it. 

Personally i feel its so much alive the ffb really feels connected to the front wheels which in turn makes the driving experience much more natural of course your never left with the feeling that something is odd here like 2.0.

Edited by FLAW3D
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