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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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11 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

There was a patch released today at 11GMT. Anyone have details?

Whadda whatta whadda?

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10 minutes ago, DelDredd said:

Not on most simulators it does not, at least with G25, I did read something somebody posted about the wheel settings being multipliers for the Damping and centering for the games forces. Maybe for his specific wheel and arcade games.

In any case Enabling Damping and Centering in wheel profile had no effect whatsoever for me with DR2.

 

I still don't get how they put game out with very limited FFB in first place, only Steer Angle Torque and a triggered effect for Cattle grids is very poor for a car racing supposed Sim.

For the wheel/tire friction sliders in game to have any effect on the FFB you need to have Damper enabled in your wheel profiler. It was the same in DR. What other games require is irrelevant in this case, this is just how the FFB works in Codies games. 

If you feel no difference from 0 to 100 in Wheel friction something else on your end is very wrong. Wheel Friction adds constant friction to your wheel making it heavy to turn. It's not subtle. 

Tire Friction is a bit different since it adds dynamic friction. It makes your wheel heavy at a stand still and lightens up gradually when you pick up speed. 

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5 hours ago, bogani said:

Remember that wheel/tire friction requires Damping to be enabled in your wheel profiler to have an effect on PC.

I'm on XBox One...

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5 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

Yay! That's really heartening. I think an official, sticky comment at the top of the forums saying the above basically, but without any specific time commitment, might have saved some snarky comments here.

But then again, so what... If they deliver, we are all going to be seriously happy and grateful. The FFB getting a fix down the track (hopefully soon) is understandable if it's a complex problem.

We're all supporting you Codies, despite some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth 😉

Also, 'loads more to come, patches, seasonal content' 🙂

Patience is key here, folks.

Not everyone is supporting Codemasters because not everyone is of the belief that we should even be discussing some of these issues in the first place and (Dirt Rally 1 aside because it's development was heavilly monitored thru early access) with a general decline in overall quality of product not everyone is of the belief that Codemasters still have gamer's best interests at heart.

But yeah, in the time honoured tradition of XBox gaming we await a patch and see where it takes us. Oh joy.

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1 hour ago, _BorisTheFrog_ said:

Not everyone is supporting Codemasters because not everyone is of the belief that we should even be discussing some of these issues in the first place and (Dirt Rally 1 aside because it's development was heavilly monitored thru early access) with a general decline in overall quality of product not everyone is of the belief that Codemasters still have gamer's best interests at heart.

But yeah, in the time honoured tradition of XBox gaming we await a patch and see where it takes us. Oh joy.

I disagree with you, I think the overall quality of the product has greatly increased. It's just human nature to focus more on the negative aspects. Obviously the game isn't perfect, but when the small issues are fixed (mainly ffb and night/rain stages), it's gonna be spectacularly close to a perfection. It's already really damn good.

As for ffb, my unpopular opinion is that it is really quite realistic now, it's just that people are used to getting more feedback from the road through their gaming wheels, but in a real car it's not necessarily so. Personally I have no problems driving with the wheel on my PS4 (t150) and I'm having a blast. I understand that some people might think differently, but it really annoys me when someone demands a refund or says the game is unplayable with the wheel, because it just isn't true.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, danielofifi said:

I disagree with you, I think the overall quality of the product has greatly increased. It's just human nature to focus more on the negative aspects. Obviously the game isn't perfect, but when the small issues are fixed (mainly ffb and night/rain stages), it's gonna be spectacularly close to a perfection. It's already really damn good.

As for ffb, my unpopular opinion is that it is really quite realistic now, it's just that people are used to getting more feedback from the road through their gaming wheels, but in a real car it's not necessarily so. Personally I have no problems driving with the wheel on my PS4 (t150) and I'm having a blast. I understand that some people might think differently, but it really annoys me when someone demands a refund or says the game is unplayable with the wheel, because it just isn't true.

 

DR 2.0 is an improvemnt in terms of the pure driving-experience and there´s great fun to be had; but what saddens me the most about DR 2.0 is that I see the HUGE potential the game had; but wasn´t used. And I mean not only the bugs, but missing features/stripped features as well. For example no Steam-Workshop-support anymore; no custom-liveries usable in the Online-Events; modding-capabilities not on par with DR1; no Hillclimb anymore; no support for Analogue Handbrakes; money and car upgrades not obtainable through custom championships anymore; no livery-editor; no Rallyschool; a WAY worse Career-Mode compared to D4 etc.

I really would like to see some kind of customization for the Career-Mode; at least a selection if I want to play a short, medium or long Season; and maybe the AI-Slider from Freeplay as well.

Of course some of these things (like custom liveries and workshop support) are PC-only; and a console-player doesn´t care. But I´m a PC-player, and I would have liked to see some additions, not features simply being cut away. Of course we now have some new stuff, like Track-degredation and the Tyre choice; but for me they´re in no way  a substitute for the missing Hillclimb, workshop-support or money/car upgrades being obtainable through custom-events.

I didn´t even expect DR 2.0 to include all of these things I mentioned; but I also didn´t expect an overall package that has somewhat less value, less content and less features than its predecessors.  And of course an expiry-date for its Single Player-Main-Mode due to the Racenet-requirement. Maybe due to budget-constraints Codemasters had to make some (big) sacrifices here.

Edited by Civarello
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58 minutes ago, Civarello said:

I really would like to see some kind of customization for the Career-Mode; at least a selection if I want to play a short, medium or long Season; and maybe the AI-Slider from Freeplay as well

All I want is the old Custom Championship from DR1 back - let us pick the # of events, the # of stages in each, the car class, and an AI difficulty we have already completed/reached.

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So to put the train back on its tracks, this thread is about FFB. I know there is an update coming tomorrow, but it is not anything FFB related. At this point (and in the spirit of supreme patience), can we - the buying public - GET AN ETA FOR FFB improvement??? I don’t mind waiting, but for goodness sake, throw us a bone here, even if it’s a month away, just something to chew on to keep the drive alive (pun intended).

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Posted (edited)

Best advice I can give is buy an Accuforce guys! Instant awesome ffb. I feel sorry for everyone having issues its a real mess by codemasters and what a bizarre time for a holiday Christina 

Edited by milanda
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Buckwilder said:

So to put the train back on its tracks, this thread is about FFB. I know there is an update coming tomorrow, but it is not anything FFB related. At this point (and in the spirit of supreme patience), can we - the buying public - GET AN ETA FOR FFB improvement??? I don’t mind waiting, but for goodness sake, throw us a bone here, even if it’s a month away, just something to chew on to keep the drive alive (pun intended).

Christina said yesterday we will get a FFB update today. (txt update not a patch update)

Edited by FLAW3D

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4 hours ago, milanda said:

Best advice I can give is buy an Accuforce guys! Instant awesome ffb. I feel sorry for everyone having issues its a real mess by codemasters and what a bizarre time for a holiday Christina 

Jimmy Broadbent has a OSW direct drive wheel which is a step up from Accuforce and he still says the FFB is rubbish.  

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4 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Christina said yesterday we will get a FFB update today. (txt update not a patch update)

So as i said nearly a month ago. Just a simple increase of strength in the xml file like my guide.

 

My guess is they won't rewrite the FFB code.

1. It will take too long.

2. They have no idea what to do.

We can onlu hope for a templar type mod like he did for DR1.

 

I managed to get a refund on this after 17 hours playtime. I'm absolutely staggered its still in a mess. Not just the FFB but the other issues everyone has reported. Yeah ok so in there somewhere is a great rally game, but we are a good 3-6 months away from that.....

 

 

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From today's Codemasters blog post: "[...] we’re continuing to investigate the concerns some of you have raised with FFB. [...] We know we need to strike a fine balance between the large number of players who are happy with the FFB, and those of you who want an experience closer to the original DiRT Rally."

To me this sounds as if the developers don't think that anything is actually broken, but that some users just wish for a different FFB experience.

Dear Codies, if you read this: It's not about taste. It's about the fact that road surface feedback is fully present and okay for some users, whereas it's completely missing for other users (sometimes even those using the same wheel model, such as the T300). This definitely looks like a bug to me. The goal should not be to change FFB for everyone, but to find out why a functionality that is obviously present in the code (because it works fine for some people) is simply not working for some users.

For example, when a car drives on gravel, there should be some continuous vibration/rumble (considerably more than on tarmac). When the wheels leave the ground (as in a jump), the rumble should stop until the car hits the ground again. This is essential for rally and not a matter of taste (as long as the strength of the effect is adjustable, of course). And it is this effect that is totally absent for many users, whereas other users say it works fine for them. Cattle grid FFB, on the other hand, seems to work for everybody.

Also, Tyre Slip and Engine FFB parameters are greyed out for many users – why? Do these parameters require a special component only present on high-end wheels?

Please could you give us some feedback as to how the issue is regarded technically from the developers' side?

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31 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

For example, when a car drives on gravel, there should be some continuous vibration/rumble (considerably more than on tarmac

No, it shouldn't. Nothing about what you just said is real or makes any sense to include. What you're asking for is a fake effect added into a game that will end up diluting & masking the other real FFB in the game.

 

When you say road feel and feedback is completely missing for others, I think most of those people's problems is over saturated FFB effects drowning out the more subtle ones. Combo'd with the XML edit every seems do be doing and you'll end up at a point where you're actually hurting the FFB more than helping it even if it feels stronger with those tweaks. FFB shouldn't be strong, the wheel in a real rally car isn't going to fight you like Arne after he did arm day - it's going to be insanely light and easy to rotate. There is still suspension and tire feel in the current FFB model, but if you have your SAT above a 60 or so it is going to start being really hard to notice. THAT is the problem for the majority of people, not the "lack" of FFB.

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8 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

No, it shouldn't. Nothing about what you just said is real or makes any sense to include. What you're asking for is a fake effect added into a game that will end up diluting & masking the other real FFB in the game.

Sorry, but if you feel nothing most of the time while driving on gravel, something is definitely wrong. I'm not asking for fancy, strong "special effects". I'm just asking for a subtle signal that tells me that my wheels are still on the ground and that I'm driving on a rough surface (a lot more subtle than the cattle grid effect, for example, which is present in the game for all users). Whether the effect is "fake" (i.e. precalculated) or "real" (i.e. derived from telemetry) is irrelevant as long as it matches the actual situation. They cannot simulate each little stone on the road in real physics (because the "stones" are actually just a texture anyway), but still you should feel that you are not on smooth tarmac. Such a subtle effect would not "cover" anything important, as the suspension signals from bumps etc. are much stronger.

As for your claim that people are messing up their FFB settings: In order to exclude the possibility that something is covering up the effect I'm missing, I set all FFB parameters to zero, then enabled each of them individually (leaving all others disabled) and tried different values to see whether any of them creates the desired effect. But none of them did.

If you don't like detailed road surface feedback, you can disable it at will. But for those people who want it, it should be there. And obviously it is there for some people, but not for others. So it's not something that Codemasters deliberately excluded from the code. It's just not working as intended in some cases.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

When you say road feel and feedback is completely missing for others, I think most of those people's problems is over saturated FFB effects drowning out the more subtle ones. Combo'd with the XML edit every seems do be doing and you'll end up at a point where you're actually hurting the FFB more than helping it even if it feels stronger with those tweaks. 

Just to make sure what we are talking about the same thing: Could you post your FFB settings (including the values in the XML file) here and state your wheel model? Then other users can try those settings and see whether it gives them proper road surface feedback.

By the way, I returned to the default XML settings, which did not help though, and many affected users are playing on consoles, where they cannot edit those settings at all. So this can't be the main reason for the issue.

Edited by Laserjones

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4 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

I'm just asking for a subtle signal that tells me that my wheels are still on the ground and that I'm driving on a rough surface

That's literally what suspension + tire friction does; the first is actually derived from the physics and the other is fake but uses the suspension to help create the "faked" effect - so it is at least pseudo-real. You will get some resistance and force when you are turning the wheel, but it isn't going to be anything extremely heavy or causing your wheel to shake if you're holding it with any kind of real grip. 

 

6 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Such a subtle effect would not "cover" anything important, as the suspension signals from bumps etc. are much stronger.

That is literally everyone's problem. The subtle effect isn't covering anything, it is the one being covered up. Try using some of the settings posted in the Discord until wheel setups or even the ones posted here on the forums (that don't use the xml edit). There is a noticeable feeling when hauling ass in an R5 at Australia when you are going over crests & bumps, you can definitely feel the wheel getting loose when the suspension decompresses and you can feel it when you slam on the brakes and push all of the weight over the front tires.

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3 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Just to make sure what we are talking about the same thing: Could you post your FFB settings (including the values in the XML file) here and state your wheel model? Then other users can try those settings and see whether it gives them proper road surface feedback.

I'm at work right now so can't share my exact settings, but I use a variation of @F2CMaDMaXX's setup with my Logitech G27. 50 for the SAT, and minor tweaks for the others. Default XML, Logitech profiler set to 100% for Overall Effects Strength, Spring, and Damper Effects Strength. 
20190316171835_1.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

That's literally what suspension + tire friction does; the first is actually derived from the physics and the other is fake but uses the suspension to help create the "faked" effect - so it is at least pseudo-real. You will get some resistance and force when you are turning the wheel, but it isn't going to be anything extremely heavy or causing your wheel to shake if you're holding it with any kind of real grip. 

Again: I'm not talking about anything heavy or strong. I'm also not talking about turning the wheel or wheel resistance at all. I'm talking about the subtle, constant vibration you should feel in a car that drives on a rough surface, regardless of the wheel angle. In a real-life car (unless it costs 50,000 or more), you feel every tiny irregularity of the road surface, even on tarmac. In DR2, you feel nothing like that (if you are affected by the issue we are talking about), except on cattle grids.

Quote

That is literally everyone's problem. The subtle effect isn't covering anything, it is the one being covered up. 

I was replying to your claim that "what you're asking for is a fake effect added into a game that will end up diluting & masking the other real FFB in the game". So you were the one who said that road vibration is bad and would cover up the other parameters. :classic_wink:

As I said before, I tested each FFB parameter individually, so that no other parameter was active that could have covered up the subtle road vibration. But I'll test the settings you posted above. Thanks for that.

And if the reason for the problem was indeed just a matter of people's FFB settings (which I seriously doubt), then it would definitely be Codemasters' job to set each officially supported wheel to default settings that provide proper road surface feedback, which they didn't. Also, it would be really helpful if the game provided some information for each parameter, explaining what it does and what settings are advisable.

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9 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

In a real-life car (unless it costs 50,000 or more), you feel every tiny irregularity of the road surface, even on tarmac.

I mean, we are talking about purpose built rally cars in this game... all of them are heavily modified from the showroom stock setup to do exactly that - smooth out the entire ride. 

 

10 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

I'm talking about the subtle, constant vibration you should feel in a car that drives on a rough surface

That is the thing though, and why I am saying it is a fake effect that would cover up the others. The vibration you are talking about is something you would feel through the car and not the steering wheel. I know we can't get all the same feedback for g-forces and the likes without a full motion rig, which is why some of these effects are faked and added into the wheel FFB, but the more stuff you fake out the more you will start to suppress the actual physics derived FFB.

 

And I'll warn you up front about those settings - it took me a couple of days to truly appreciate them. I used to keep the SAT jacked way up and the wheel was wayyy heavier with my old settings than the new ones I modeled after Maxx's. The wheel is going to feel way lighter than you are used to and it will throw you off initially. But keep driving a few more stages with it, give yourself a chance to adapt. I came back the 2nd day and when I sat down all of a sudden I realized I could feel so much more in the FFB but it was all subtle - and I realized my heavy wheel setup easily could have been hiding all of that in corners. I eventually ended up dropping my SAT from something like 70-75 down to the low 50s and love how much more I can feel because of it.

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7 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

And I'll warn you up front about those settings - it took me a couple of days to truly appreciate them. I used to keep the SAT jacked way up and the wheel was wayyy heavier with my old settings than the new ones I modeled after Maxx's. The wheel is going to feel way lighter than you are used to and it will throw you off initially. But keep driving a few more stages with it, give yourself a chance to adapt.

On PS4/T300, I dropped down my sat to 40. WF 0. TF 90. Suspension 100. Collision 65 (I will try 0), steering center force OFF on tarmac, 10 max on gravel. With this, I can feel subtles things in the wheel, like little road texture effect (yes I promise), weight transfer forces etc... The suspension job is also here. I prefer to drive old cars as they offer a better ffb feeling than modern ones.

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2 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

I mean, we are talking about purpose built rally cars in this game... all of them are heavily modified from the showroom stock setup to do exactly that - smooth out the entire ride. 

Everything is relative ... Of course you need to reduce and smooth the violent input a rally car is taking in order to save the drivers' health. But it is still violent, as stated by someone on YouTube who wanted to experience the difference between a sim and the real thing and joined a real rally driver on a test track. Also, in the lower rally classes, not a lot of modification is allowed compared to stock cars. Anyway, you cannot tell me that a real rally car driving on a bumpy gravel track feels as smooth as a stock car driving on polished marble. :classic_wink:

Quote

The vibration you are talking about is something you would feel through the car and not the steering wheel. I know we can't get all the same feedback for g-forces and the likes without a full motion rig, which is why some of these effects are faked and added into the wheel FFB, but the more stuff you fake out the more you will start to suppress the actual physics derived FFB.

1. The vibration is felt through both the car and the wheel, because both are connected.

2. Since most of us only have the wheel as a feedback device, the effect must come through it, because removing the effect entirely would feel even more unnatural.

3. A subtle vibration (if set not too strong) will not suppress anything important. If it did, it would also do so on a real car. And it's an important information by itself, not just a nice realism feature. How can I know whether my wheels are still on the ground if I feel no difference between driving and flying at all?

All of this has nothing to do with the SAT setting. I agree that this should be low, and I have it there.

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2 hours ago, Spacepadrille said:

On PS4/T300, I dropped down my sat to 40. WF 0. TF 90. Suspension 100. Collision 65 (I will try 0), steering center force OFF on tarmac, 10 max on gravel. With this, I can feel subtles things in the wheel, like little road texture effect (yes I promise), weight transfer forces etc... The suspension job is also here. I prefer to drive old cars as they offer a better ffb feeling than modern ones.

There are no road texture effects, no matter what settings you use. Promise.

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41 minutes ago, ShodanCat said:

There are no road texture effects, no matter what settings you use. Promise.

I read somewhere in this forum that strangely not all users are affected in the same way by the ffb issue... I agree that on tarmac I feel NO texture or road feeling, but on gravels, depending of the car, it's there. And when it's there, the overall ffb feeling is good. I also agree that for people who prefers a strong wheel, it's not possible to have a decent ffb. I like to have a light but informative wheel, and in that way it's possible to enjoy DR2. But I really hope CM will improve the ffb very soon, and also give to customers a good default ffb setting base (PC, consoles, most popular wheels) to begin to tweak as they like. Not this default 100 everywhere witch is a nonsense.

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6 minutes ago, Spacepadrille said:

I read somewhere in this forum that strangely not all users are affected in the same way by the ffb issue... I agree that on tarmac I feel NO texture or road feeling, but on gravels, depending of the car, it's there. And when it's there, the overall ffb feeling is good. I also agree that for people who prefers a strong wheel, it's not possible to have a decent ffb. I like to have a light but informative wheel, and in that way it's possible to enjoy DR2. But I really hope CM will improve the ffb very soon, and also give to customers a good default ffb setting base (PC, consoles, most popular wheels) to begin to tweak as they like. Not this default 100 everywhere witch is a nonsense.

So if you do have texture feedback on gravel, can you say which of the parameters it is related to? As I said, I tried them all individually, and none gave that effect. Logically, it should be related to suspension, because road rumble on a real car comes through that, but since the general rumble would be a precalculated (canned) effect added to the physics-derived suspension FFB, it would make more sense to be able to adjust them both separately. And even on a modern car with smooth suspension, there should be at least a little bit of feedback.

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