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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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The texture feedback is more present in Australia with a car like Mitsubishi Group A, soft tyres, i.e. This feeling is related (as I feel it) not to one slider, but to the mix between the different forces. Like in PCars 1, a force related to one slider can become stronger just by lowering the others sliders. Collision can be lowered to 20. SAT to 45. Suspension to 80 or less. My patch is just downloaded, let's try it 😉 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Spacepadrille said:

The texture feedback is more present in Australia with a car like Mitsubishi Group A, soft tyres, i.e. This feeling is related (as I feel it) not to one slider, but to the mix between the different forces.

Okay, I tested it with my Thrustmaster T150 (all forces set to default in the XML file and in the Thrustmaster tool, i.e. 75 % overall force and the other sliders at 100 %). Used the Group A Mitsubishi, soft tyres, in Australia, as suggested. SAT set to 45 (a little too weak for my taste), then played around with the other sliders.

As long as I drive straight ahead over gravel without turning the wheel, the wheel shows no continuous FFB action at all. The only exception is the cattle grid effect, which is connected to the Suspension parameter (as I found out by temporarily setting it to zero).

Otherwise, the Suspension parameter only generates occasional, minimal bumps (at my low test drive speed, it was one tiny bump every few seconds at most, or even less). Since this effect is irregular, I assume it's physics-derived feedback of actual 3D bumps in the road – as opposed to the fine surface structure, which is not actually modelled in 3D. This fine surface texture is not reflected in the FFB at all, which is the main problem we are talking about.

Wheel friction works as intended, it just makes the wheel generally harder to turn, independent of the driving situation. I left that off for the other tests.

Tyre friction also works as intended, it makes the wheel harder to turn as long as the car is not (or slowly) moving, because then the ground friction of the tyres creates resistance against turning. I also had the impression that this parameter creates some dynamic feedback when driving curves (the turning resistance of the wheel varies a bit), but that might also be the SAT. This helps a little bit, but is far from actual surface texture feedback, and as I said, it's not happening when driving straight ahead.

Is this different from your experience? 

Edited by Laserjones
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Posted (edited)

it is not so different from my experience, except that while driving hard, I can feel some road texture and tyres slip on gravel. Not  in straight lines (only suspension job), but in the turns, and when the weight transfer occurs. Actually I set SAT to 50, tyre friction to 40, suspension to 80, collision 20. For me tyre friction works well below 50, after it's weird.

Edited by Spacepadrille

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so if you summarize your experience with "I get some road texture feedback", and I summarize the same experience with "I get no road texture feedback", then it could actually be possible that there is no difference between the experience of users "affected" by the issue and those "not affected". Maybe it's just a matter of how they define "road texture feedback".

Still I cannot imagine that Codemasters deliberately removed any kind of continuous vibration effect indicating gravel and other rough surfaces. It's resulting in such an unnatural, "floating" driving experience. I mean, you feel cattle grids and corrugated metal bridges, so why shouldn't you feel the normal road surface as well? They could just turn all these precalculated effects into a separate "Surface Feedback" parameter that people could adjust or disable to their liking, independent of the physics-based Suspension parameter. Then everybody would be happy and nothing would be disrupted.

Edited by Laserjones
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8 hours ago, Laserjones said:

Okay, so if you summarize your experience with "I get some road texture feedback", and I summarize the same experience with "I get no road texture feedback", then it could actually be possible that there is no difference between the experience of users "affected" by the issue and those "not affected". Maybe it's just a matter of how they define "road texture feedback".

Thats the best way to say the thing, totally agree 😉

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On 3/20/2019 at 6:38 PM, Laserjones said:

Dear Codies, if you read this: It's not about taste. It's about the fact that road surface feedback is fully present and okay for some users, whereas it's completely missing for other users (sometimes even those using the same wheel model, such as the T300). This definitely looks like a bug to me. The goal should not be to change FFB for everyone, but to find out why a functionality that is obviously present in the code (because it works fine for some people) is simply not working for some users.

 

But I totally agree with that too... You say the road surface is totally present for some users... who are they ? Can they say here that all is ok for them and that they have a full road feedback ? 

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2 minutes ago, Spacepadrille said:

But I totally agree with that too... You say the road surface is totally present for some users... who are they ? Can they say here that all is ok for them and that they have a full road feedback ? 

The problem is that hardly anyone who sees no problem with their FFB will read this thread. :classic_unsure: But the next time I meet one of them on Facebook or YouTube, I'll ask them in more detail what kind of road feedback they are actually getting.

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Oh we see this thread, but a lot of us stopped commenting a few pages back. The tl;dr of why some people think there is no road feel and others do:

For the most part, people who say they have road/surface feel are using a much "softer"/lighter wheel FFB setting than those who are editing the XML or turning the SAT much higher.

So basically there is feedback in the current setup, but a lot of it is very "gentle" and subtle feedback that gets immediately lost if you start cranking up the SAT. The wheel and FFB (in the current implementation, I heard there was a much better one in the closed beta) are designed in a way that should not feel heavy or even require much/if any wrestling with the wheel; just like in real life. So those of us who were already used to, or even just adapted to with 2.0, lighter wheels with weak resistance the road feeling and feedback is there. It definitely is all there, I think we can all agree on that, but a lot of it already is. And weak resistance does not mean weak feedback - it just means you aren't fighting against the wheel nearly as hard which allows the subtle feedback to come through to the driver.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

So basically there is feedback in the current setup, but a lot of it is very "gentle" and subtle feedback that gets immediately lost if you start cranking up the SAT.

Mike, you are repeating yourself, and you are missing the point, because the potential misconfigurations you keep mentioning have all been excluded in the tests mentioned above. As I said several times: Even with SAT and all other parameters except Suspension set to zero (and the XML set to default), there is no continuous road surface feedback at all, just occasional tiny bumps. I tried the same with all other parameters, testing each one individually with the others turned off. None of them creates the effect the affected users are missing (but the Suspension parameter is the one that should create it, as it also creates the cattle grid effect). We know already that you believe this continuous, "canned" effect is unnecessary anyway. So I'll now ask other people who think that FFB is okay whether they have the effect or not. Maybe they all don't have it and just don't care (like you), or maybe they do have it, so it's broken for some users only. That's what I'm trying to find out.

Edited by Laserjones
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Mike, you are repeating yourself, and you are missing the point, because the potential misconfigurations you keep mentioning have all been excluded in the tests mentioned above. As I said several times: Even with SAT and all other parameters except Suspension set to zero (and the XML set to default), there is no continuous road surface feedback at all, just occasional tiny bumps. I tried the same with all other parameters, testing each one individually with the others turned off. None of them creates the effect the affected users are missing (but the Suspension parameter is the one that should create it, as it also creates the cattle grid effect). We know already that you believe this continuous, "canned" effect is unnecessary anyway. So I'll now ask other people who think that FFB is okay whether they have the effect or not. Maybe they all don't have it and just don't care (like you), or maybe they do have it, so it's broken for some users only. That's what I'm trying to find out.

I can confirm the same - no FFB feedback from the suspension whatsoever! 
PS4 Pro / Fanatec CSL Elite Racing Wheel

Edited by McRoessler
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Laserjones said:

Mike, you are repeating yourself, and you are missing the point

Because you are missing my point in that you cannot disable all settings and test individually. Certain settings requires other settings to be enabled to correctly generate all of the FFB because that FFB is modified by both. So setting either to 0 is like multiplying by 0 - you get nothing in the end. You need to be using most values to some degree to get the effects, that is the problem. It's like if you set dampening strength to 0% in your wheel profile software, certain FFB effects will disappear because the game uses that to generate certain effects.

Edited by Mike Dee
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26 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

Because you are missing my point in that you cannot disable all settings and test individually. Certain settings requires other settings to be enabled to correctly generate all of the FFB because that FFB is modified by both. So setting either to 0 is like multiplying by 0 - you get nothing in the end. You need to be using most values to some degree to get the effects, that is the problem. It's like if you set dampening strength to 0% in your wheel profile software, certain FFB effects will disappear because the game uses that to generate certain effects.

Of course I also tested all kinds of combinations of various parameters at different settings, including those you suggested earlier. It still did not produce what so many users are missing. I used the default settings of the wheel profile software (all forces enabled, wheel centering controlled by the game).

Besides, each (in-game) parameter can be tested individually, because each parameter does different, clearly defined things. The cattle grid effect, for example, is still there when only Suspension is enabled (which is only natural, as it has nothing to do with the other parameters). General road surface feedback (which is basically the same kind as the cattle grid effect, just for a different surface) should also be there in that case, but it isn't. All other parameters are irrelevant for this, because they all (except Collision) have to do with wheel turning resistance only, but the general surface feedback is independent of that. Of course, as soon as you start turning the wheel, these parameters come into play and add to your road feedback experience, but the basic surface feedback should be there even if you just drive straight ahead. But it isn't.

You already said earlier that you are not missing it and find it unnecessary, so you simply seem to like a different experience than those users we are trying to care for. You have every right to feel that way, but please accept that other people have other desires, and don't tell them that it's just their configuration that disables the desired effect. Because it's not.

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Not sure about the rest of you i have not once been effected by a 

On 3/20/2019 at 11:37 AM, FLAW3D said:

Jimmy Broadbent has a OSW direct drive wheel which is a step up from Accuforce and he still says the FFB is rubbish.  

OSW wheels dont use what Acuuforce has which is its own customizeable ffb software called Sim Commander, with this you can map the telemetry from the game and create your own ffb, its also possible to mix this with the games ffb, the good bits and create a unique ffb. I have to say once you add all the missing elements from the games ffb like road texture to name 1, it is truly amazing the results that can be achieved.

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Just doing my weekly check in to see if anything has changed. I’d really like to start playing this game again. 

Nope, nothing has changed. Back to F1. 😞

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Meanwhile I got feedback from a guy on Facebook who is using a CSW V2.5 with 918 RSR rim and did some detailed testing after I had asked for it. He found that he is "feeling vibration. Just enough to know there is a surface under the tyres. Also feel landing if i get 4 off over a crest or jump, weight transfer feels good plus other effects such as collision, cattle grid etc."

So this seems to be proof that there actually are users who are getting the (continuous) road surface feedback that so many users are missing.

Also, I got feedback from someone who is using the same wheel (T300RS) on two different platforms. He wrote: "Yesterday, I played Dirt Rally 2.0 both on my PC and PS4. On PS4 my T300RS wheel felt superb, excellent FFB (the wheel’s fans were hoovering all the time and I almost began sweating as I was working the wheel). On PC the fans in the wheel didn’t engage, not even once. The feel on the wheel was ”empty” and non-responsive, hardly any force in the FFB."

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:44 AM, Laserjones said:

Meanwhile I got feedback from a guy on Facebook who is using a CSW V2.5 with 918 RSR rim and did some detailed testing after I had asked for it. He found that he is "feeling vibration. Just enough to know there is a surface under the tyres. Also feel landing if i get 4 off over a crest or jump, weight transfer feels good plus other effects such as collision, cattle grid etc."

So this seems to be proof that there actually are users who are getting the (continuous) road surface feedback that so many users are missing.

Also, I got feedback from someone who is using the same wheel (T300RS) on two different platforms. He wrote: "Yesterday, I played Dirt Rally 2.0 both on my PC and PS4. On PS4 my T300RS wheel felt superb, excellent FFB (the wheel’s fans were hoovering all the time and I almost began sweating as I was working the wheel). On PC the fans in the wheel didn’t engage, not even once. The feel on the wheel was ”empty” and non-responsive, hardly any force in the FFB."

Dont believe a word if anyone tells you PS4s FFB is superb. 

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Dear Codies, I hope you are monitoring this thread. Could you at least give us an update about the status?

You told us that this needs to be evaluated carefully, as any change would affect all cars and surfaces. But actually all that is missing is road surface vibration, which is widely independent of the other parameters. As far as I can see, all you would need to do is separate the physics/telemetry-based Suspension parameter from the pre-calculated surface vibration effects and make both adjustable separately. Then anyone who is missing road surface vibration could simply turn it up without changing anything else.

And while we are at it: Please add in-game explanations to the individual FFB parameters, so that we know what they actually do. It's not self-explanatory for most people. 

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Okay, so it looks like Codies are not monitoring this post ... really sad. :classic_sad: Their community management needs some improvement in my opinion.

Meanwhile I made some more observations on my real-life car regarding the amount of road surface feedback. Actually there is a lot of it. Even on smooth tarmac that is in good shape, I can feel not only tiny bumps in the road surface that are not even visible, but also a constant vibration from the surface material (which changes with the type of tarmac I drive on). This can be felt not only through the chassis, as some people claimed here, but also directly through the wheel. I observed this very carefully and focused on the actual feeling in my hands, independent of body feelings and sound. Of course, a part of the vibration probably comes from the engine, too. But not all of it, otherwise it would not change with the surface type.

Bottom line: Road surface (and engine) vibration felt through the wheel is an actual and factual phenomenon, even on tarmac, and should therefore be simulated as fully as possible.

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My $83 copy of Dirt Rally 2.0 is collecting dust (waiting for this FFB fix) - at what point are we entitled to a refund?    

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The team is more than aware of the issue. It's not because community management isn't reacting that they are not looking at the threads/posts. It has been stated by community manager @ChristinaMc that the team are working on fixing the FFB. It is not as simple as moving a few sliders around or just changing a few numbers. They need to tweak things, test it, tweak some more, test it again, etc. It takes time to get it right so please be patient. 

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1 hour ago, Hub67 said:

My $83 copy of Dirt Rally 2.0 is collecting dust (waiting for this FFB fix) - at what point are we entitled to a refund?    

Same here mate. I haven’t played it in a couple weeks. No point. 

As to the comment above about feeling surface noise through a real wheel, I agree 100%. 

Sure the feeling of road texture is probably transferred through the wheel from the chassis and suspension. But it still comes through the wheel. No doubt about it. 

I love Jimmy Broadbent, dude can drive. Knows his stuff and has played everything. He loves the dirt series to bits, so if he says the FFb is ****, it’s ****. 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, SimVansevenant said:

The team is more than aware of the issue. It's not because community management isn't reacting that they are not looking at the threads/posts. It has been stated by community manager @ChristinaMc that the team are working on fixing the FFB. It is not as simple as moving a few sliders around or just changing a few numbers. They need to tweak things, test it, tweak some more, test it again, etc. It takes time to get it right so please be patient. 

I do believe that they are working on it, and probably they are really stressed, because it's so messed up and they need to limit the loss of image they are suffering due to the fact that they let this slip through QA for no imaginable reason. But I still consider it bad community management to leave us completely in the dark about their progress. They did not even acknowledge the problem to its full extent, instead they claim that the majority of users are entirely satisfied with the FFB. So far, I have not heard or read a single user confirming that ...

Edited by Laserjones
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6 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

 instead they claim that the majority of users is entirely satisfied with the FFB. So far, I have not heard or read a single user confirming that ...

Nah there are a few around that seem to defend the FFb with their lives.

Apparently if you hack into your software code, change some things, squint your eyes a little, while forgetting anything you’ve ever experienced in a real car.......the game is awesome!!!!

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4 hours ago, SimVansevenant said:

The team is more than aware of the issue. It's not because community management isn't reacting that they are not looking at the threads/posts. It has been stated by community manager @ChristinaMc that the team are working on fixing the FFB. It is not as simple as moving a few sliders around or just changing a few numbers. They need to tweak things, test it, tweak some more, test it again, etc. It takes time to get it right so please be patient. 

Why do people feel the need to defend the indefensible on behalf of a company that has under-delivered?

While it may take time to fix, they MUST have an estimate for how much time (or they are lacking any engineering process). Why are they unable to communicate that?

They MUST by now have an idea what is missing and what might be involved in rectifying the problem. Why are they unable to communicate that?

They (Christina) made a public undertaking to keep customers informed. Why are they failing to do that?

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