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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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10 hours ago, ChristinaMc said:

... there are different levels of feedback about the FFB - some are happy with it, some want some tweaking, and some people we're not sure what they want... 

Come on. Everyone has made it very clear that they want to feel the road through the wheel. Like in every other sim racer released in the last 10 years. 

Such a bizarre reaction to this now. Its like watching Trump repeatedly pretend that a lie is true thinking that if he says it enough people will just go along with it. 

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10 hours ago, ChristinaMc said:

As a lot of users have mentioned, there are different levels of feedback about the FFB - some are happy with it, some want some tweaking, and some people we're not sure what they want, but we know they're unhappy with it - so there's a lot of investigative work, tinkering and testing to be done.

Thanks for this honest answer (without anything said).

At least for me it seems, that CM does not have any clue what's the problem with FFB and so I lost any hope that DR 2 will ever move on to a pleasure to drive like DR 1.

So after Dirt 4 I feel with DR 2 the 2nd time ripped off. 

 

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5 hours ago, Laserjones said:

@ChristinaMc Thank you for confirming your presence. I assume that you are under strict orders as to what you are are (or aren't) allowed to say. So please don't take this personal, you are probably a bit between the lines of fire, which may be frustrating for you, too. But maybe you can talk to Product Management and Development and try to get some more meaningful information out of them, because what you wrote above is basically the same as what you wrote weeks ago.

It would be great if we could get at least something technical like: "So far, we can confirm that some users unexpectedly don't get road texture vibration, and this seems to be related to [...]" or "Indeed we had decided to greatly reduce road texture vibration because of [...], but it seems that it is now below the threshold on many wheels, which we only found out after release, because [...]" You see what I mean. As I wrote before, it's not just about taste or a desire for a different kind of experience. It's about a missing essential functionality. This can't be the way it was planned by you, i.e. not simply the result of a design decision, but there has not been any acknowledgement of this so far. It's not a shame to admit a mistake. It's a sign of integrity and customer orientation.

it's simple, ffb is nothing like in DR 1, so there's Codemasters point of reference, that's what nearly everyone is asking for, that's the effect we're wanting.

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7 hours ago, watzcoc said:

it's simple, ffb is nothing like in DR 1, so there's Codemasters point of reference, that's what nearly everyone is asking for, that's the effect we're wanting.

In a word - yes.

Why is this falling on deaf ears? Have not run in to anyone who doesn’t know what they want. Those who seek change, want to feel the road. Those who seek change - want something akin to DR1. Those who seek change - to Laserjones’ point - would like something more than ‘there’s a lot of investigative work’. 

Well, on the flip side it’s getting a good look apparently - so that’s a bonus.

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17 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

5) "we're planning on testing it with some of you" - Who? What is your selection criteria? How long is the test? How does one get involved? Why can't this be a test for everyone (let's face it, we're already testing the game).

Good point. The problem with ‘hand picking’ certain people is that said folks may not be representative of the masses. Roll out the update, and leave the fix-code ‘open’ for post release feedback fine-tuning/adjustment. Maybe too many hands in the cookie jar is the concern, but I for one would love to test it - as we all would I’m sure. My TX wheel feels different than other brands/models undoubtedly...so I hope whomever they pick, are those who encompass completely and thoroughly the broad spectrum of users and peripherals. A lot of options for FFB others presently have, I don’t right now as they are greyed out, so my point of reference is different than others, and vice versa.

Makes for a real conundrum as to the selection process and ensuring parity across the feedback (no pun intended), spectrum.

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I have so far put 3.5 hours into this game since launch. I try every once in a while to get back into the game. But after 10 minutes any kind of joy is gone. The driving experience is dead, uninspiring and disappointing still. I hope we will see a fix/correction eventually. Until then DR1 will keep me occupied instead. 

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1 hour ago, deadmeat2k said:

I have so far put 3.5 hours into this game since launch. I try every once in a while to get back into the game. But after 10 minutes any kind of joy is gone. The driving experience is dead, uninspiring and disappointing still. I hope we will see a fix/correction eventually. Until then DR1 will keep me occupied instead. 

there is no motivation for this game as it is in regards to ffb, forza 7 for example has good feeling DR 2 does not.

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RaceFace on GTPlanet sums up the FFB well...

Driving with the T300 on rough gravel feels like driving on the Autobahn with a Mercedes-Benz S-Class. No vibrations.
 
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Is it just me, or does the response by ChristinaMac feel a little condescending? 

Codemasters should take on board that the vast majority of users feel like the ffb is terrible.  We have a solid datum to compare to, in Dirt Rally 1.  

Stop telling us we don't know what we want, or most are happy with the FFB as it's complete garbage.  

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2 hours ago, Ferrethead81 said:

Is it just me, or does the response by ChristinaMac feel a little condescending? 

Codemasters should take on board that the vast majority of users feel like the ffb is terrible.  We have a solid datum to compare to, in Dirt Rally 1.  

Stop telling us we don't know what we want, or most are happy with the FFB as it's complete garbage.  

It's not just you.

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Posted (edited)

Yup, I feel the same way. For me some of those last responses read as if Codemasters is a bit annoyed by the community at this point. Which to be fair, I can somewhat understand. The negativity towards DR2.0 was pretty harsh since release, and the sales-figures don´t seem to look like a reason to celebrate as well. BUT, and I wrote this before: I still think that a good chunk of these criticisms are still Codemasters own doing (not talking about stuff like "Your game is trash" etc.). They MUST have known Always Online would bring a huge amount of criticism. They MUST have known that the game would be better served if it would have been delayed a couple of weeks; or better months as we see now.  But again, I somewhat get that the spirits aren´t exactly flying high at Codemasters after the release of DR2.0........Or maybe, as FLAW3D pointed out, it REALLY could be a poor choice of words. 

What I personally find a bit strange is that the important stuff that many in the community aren´t satisfied with is now always a "huge undertaking" for Codemasters. In Dirt4 it was the sticky rear-end that was a huge undertaking to fix (the exact words were used back then if I remember correctly), and now the FFB and the AI-Times in DR2.0 again are a "huge undertaking". These things are some of the most important aspects of a Racing/Rally-Game with a Single Player-component. I don´t want to deny that these changes ARE harder to do than the smaller things, but why do so many players want changes in these areas, and are not satisfied with what Codemasters delivered and thought is good  (only if they actually think it´s good of course; and Codemasters isn´t treating DR2.0 as some kind of "Games as a Service"-type of game; release a game rather sooner than later, then fix/finish the game after release) ? Is the feeling for what´s good that much different within Codemasters compared to the players outside ?

I sure hope that the outcome of the "sticky rear-end" from Dirt4 isn´t a sign for what is to come in DR2.0.......

 

One last thing: I am one of the more critical people of DR2.0 and the state it was released in. But my criticisms are never aimed at a personal level. I only want better and finished games on release, and the only reason why I personally am so critical is because I KNOW Codemasters can do better: Which they showed with Dirt Rally 1.

Edited by Civarello
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It did come across as condescending but honestly i think it was just poorly worded. 

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13 hours ago, Ferrethead81 said:

Codemasters should take on board that the vast majority of users feel like the ffb is terrible.  We have a solid datum to compare to, in Dirt Rally 1.

Do you have any numbers to back that up?

No?

No. You’re basing it on the few people here and on Reddit/Steam whining about FFB in variously precise ways.

This should be obvious, but those people are not representative of the entire playerbase. The people who are fine with the FFB are almost exclusively NOT posting on forums or Reddit.

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Just now, afahoy said:

Do you have any numbers to back that up?

No?

No. You’re basing it on the few people here and on Reddit/Steam whining about FFB in variously precise ways.

This should be obvious, but those people are not representative of the entire playerbase. The people who are fine with the FFB are almost exclusively NOT posting on forums or Reddit.

You can add Dirt Facebook, Dirt Twitter, GTPlanet and let me tell you...it's way more than a few!?!? God knows where you get your own figures from. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, afahoy said:

Do you have any numbers to back that up?

No?

No. You’re basing it on the few people here and on Reddit/Steam whining about FFB in variously precise ways.

This should be obvious, but those people are not representative of the entire playerbase. The people who are fine with the FFB are almost exclusively NOT posting on forums or Reddit.

These type of responses seem to be your favorite. Stuff like "Do you have 100% proof that the majority  isn´t ok with the FFB". 

Thing is, you´re doing the same: You automatically presume that all the people who are ok with the FFB  are NOT posting on Forums. Do you have any proof for that ?

Edited by Civarello

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Civarello said:

These type of responses seem to be your favorite. Stuff like "Do you have 100% proof that the majority  isn´t ok with the FFB". 

Thing is, you´re doing the same: You automatically presume that all the people who are ok with the FFB  are NOT posting on Forums. Do you have any proof for that ?

That’s not how this works. You’re making a claim, I’m questioning it. And I’m not asking for “100% proof”, just some actual evidence that makes sense, not wishful thinking. If you want to discuss this, do so in good faith, don’t misrepresent arguments that you don’t agree with.

And my evidence that people who are ok with FFB aren’t posting on the forums is the lack of forum posts from anyone other than a few regulars saying “the FFB is fine”.

Edited by afahoy
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Sometimes it feels pretty good, today drove with Mini maby 50 stages (monthly challenges) and there is difference with wet and dry gravel, you can feel when car lighten at tarmac when drive high speed to gentle bump etc. 
It´s not useless but it could be better.
After few stages with DR1 at Finland you can feel how it could be also with DR2.

However I don´t see point why gamers argue is it good or not, unless there is coders who are behind of FFB coding and try to make justify to present code.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, afahoy said:

That’s not how this works. You’re making a claim, I’m questioning it. And I’m not asking for “100% proof”, just some actual evidence that makes sense, not wishful thinking. If you want to discuss this, do so in good faith, don’t misrepresent arguments that you don’t agree with.

And my evidence that people who are ok with FFB aren’t posting on the forums is the lack of forum posts from anyone other than a few regulars saying “the FFB is fine”.

Well, I wasn´t making that claim, I just asked because this type of response seems to be your "Modus Operandi". I guess you ask these question because you know that it can´t be proven that the majority is not satisfied with a certain thing. I would guess it´s fairer to say that the majority of people voicing their opinion isn´t satisfied with the FFB. But if this is the main-feedback Codemasters gets Online, should they just leave the FFB as it is, because there is the possibility that the silent majority is ok with the FFB ? But again, there´s also no evidence that the people NOT posting on Forums are actually OK with the FFB. And, being ok with something doesn´t mean that someone is against an improvement.

I also don´t think that it´s very beneficial for your arguments when you call the people who aren´t satisfied with the FFB "whiners". The FFB is a valid criticism for many people. You seem to be ok with it, but your opinion isn´t the standard for everyone and doesn´t mean the opinion of those people is wrong or that they´re "whining". I can´t stand these new edgy words like "Hater", "Whiner" and "Fanboy" anyway. They´re almost always used when the person doesn´t want to actually discuss, but only discredit other peoples opinions (on both sides of the argument).

The FFB isn´t among my personal biggest gripes with the game anyway; yes, it´s not great and other racing-titles do it much better for my tastes. But there are other things that annoy me even more and make me wonder who really thought those were a great idea......In some points DR2.0 is an even bigger letdown for me personally than Dirt 4 was..........The pure driving experience is great, but all the "flesh" around this driving experience leaves much to be desired in my opinion. And even takes a few steps back compared to DR2.0s predecessors.

Edited by Civarello
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In fact it does not really matter whether the absolute majority is openly dissatisfied with FFB or only a significant portion of players. It's definitely more than enough of them, and they almost all agree about the same problem.

Of those who don't complain, you can be sure that many simply don't bother to do so even though they aren't satisfied, either because they simply wait for a fix or because they resigned and accept it as bad as it is. And there are surely also many who just don't care so much about FFB at all, and those who never had a driving game (or an FFB wheel) before and just don't know what to expect. So far, I have not read a single comment anywhere that claimed that FFB is really good as it is.

In the DiRT Facebook group, at least, you have all sorts of players posting all sorts of content, not just those who are openly dissatisfied with FFB. Yet there is a lot of complaints about FFB, a lot of agreement as to what is missing, and hardly anyone who reacts with replies like "Don't know what you mean, it's perfect for me". That's surely a lot more representative than this forum.

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Is Dirt 2.0 force  feedback derived from suspension model or the road surface ?  just curious 

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3 hours ago, afahoy said:

That’s not how this works. You’re making a claim, I’m questioning it. And I’m not asking for “100% proof”, just some actual evidence that makes sense, not wishful thinking. If you want to discuss this, do so in good faith, don’t misrepresent arguments that you don’t agree with.

And my evidence that people who are ok with FFB aren’t posting on the forums is the lack of forum posts from anyone other than a few regulars saying “the FFB is fine”.

Sorry but I am with the others on this. This post is just inflammatory and argumentative - for the sake of it. Fine, you can zig while we all zag. Well done. In the meantime it’s plain to see that the vast majority of us feel there is room for FFB amelioration. Like as if we all have nothing better to do than flame Codies for the hell of it. No one has concrete data/analytics regarding overall numbers of for and against. The ones who are passionate enough to even sign up here, and post their feedback and concerns are likely the embodiment of DR players, and the ones who will be in for the long haul. As such, if the prevailing sentiment is that FFB and other issues are lacking, than take it at face value. You are free to disagree but don’t post just to discredit or call in to question the obvious...

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IMHO , simple math ....................2-3, maybe few more i dont know about  main Dirt forums in the world and on which  most people have some complaints or concerns about FFb . Dont they all see that? 

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9 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

In the meantime it’s plain to see that the vast majority of us feel there is room for FFB amelioration.

I agree with that. I have always agreed with that. At the same time, I can be happy with the FFB as it is. Is it perfect? No. Is it game-breakingly bad, distractingly bad? No. Would I be upset if it was left as-is? A little, personally, and perhaps moreso on behalf of the people for whom it does genuinely seem to not be working properly.

14 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

As such, if the prevailing sentiment is that FFB and other issues are lacking, then take it at face value.

Yes, the prevailing sentiment here, on Reddit and on the Discord server is that FFB and various other things should be improved. Once again, I’m not disagreeing with that. I have my own list of things I’d like to see fixed/improved.

What I am disagreeing with is the childish, impatient whining and entitled demands that the “broken” FFB be fixed yesterday or the game is literally unplayable.

I am also disagreeing with the notion that this forum, or worse, Reddit, is representative of the whole userbase. We all (well most of us) want the game to better, we just care enough to post about it here. Most people, though, don’t. They’re likely fine with the game as it is, or if not, will either stop playing soon, or make their grievances known.

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Impatient? Its been more than 5 weeks since release im not sure we can throw the term impatient around now. They must of known once it went gold 3-6 weeks before release FFB was a disaster so id imagine they would of been working on it since it did go gold. Impatient is certainly the wrong term.

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Let your love light shine guys.

 

And maybe speak more objectively about ffb. Thousands bought and play the game and as yet only around 100 have commented on FFB being bad. Also whilst I would like some addition to the effects, to call it a disaster is just false.

I have a really good feeling with the force feedback, and yes I play a lot of Sims and yes I drive real cars etc etc.

 

Point is everyone has their own opinion, but that's what it is. Not 'broken' or a 'disaster'. But just not what you like or expect, which is fine. And is also the reason we are trying to collect votes on these issues.

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