Jump to content

ffb fixed, some comms from devs

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Impatient? Its been more than 5 weeks since release im not sure we can throw the term impatient around now. They must of known once it went gold 3-6 weeks before release FFB was a disaster so id imagine they would of been working on it since it did go gold. Impatient is certainly the wrong term.

You have been here crying since day 1. So at least you are impatient and annoying af. 

  • Disagree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree with @Rallystu2 that the FFB isn't nearly as bad as its made out to be. And I have been driving sims for a long time. It takes some adjusting, and I would personally like road effects to be more pronounced (realistic or not). Honestly, once I played with the settings I am pretty happy with the feel. Even on tarmac.

One thing I notice in my RL car, and its not something you see in sims generally... when the car is idle, there is a gentle vibration through the wheel. I feel this dissipates once the wheels are in motion, but I would love to see a game incorporate gentle vibration when stationary and idle. Maybe increase vibration along with RPMs and clutch engaged.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah agreed it is not a disaster...but the point is that it is a pretty significant step back (in most people’s opinion), when compared to the first DR game. Supposing we passively suggested the FFB was ok / passable / less than ideal and possibly worth taking a look at. Do you think they would stop and take note and then throw a bunch of resources at it to remedy the problem? Improbable. Squeaky wheel gets the grease boys, and people are passionate about their driving games especially when using expensive driving rigs and simulation equipment on which to enjoy them. Not condoning the rhetoric and disrespect on the forums , but the exaggerated tendencies of the masses on this forum, and the likes of Reddit, Steam etc, was undoubtedly an accumulation of overwhelming frustration based on the fact the game fell well short of expectation and was HIGHLY anticipated by everyone who had the pleasure of playing DR1.

We can go round and round - but the fact is simple: just becuase something is acceptable or tolerable doesn’t make it good or ok. Codies should have added detail to the FFB model from DR1 and what we got instead was an un-carbonated, watered down, vanilla version of it.

Edited by Buckwilder
  • Like 1
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Murikka said:

You have been here crying since day 1. So at least you are impatient and annoying af. 

Nae bother ya dafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, FLAW3D said:

Nae bother ya dafty

Gamers rise up, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, afahoy said:

Gamers rise up, eh?

Better than lying down. Ypu guys will be thankful in 3-6 months time when the game is brilliant after pressure to fix and improve the game and it will happen as right now the word of mouth on the game is bad and they need a 180 on that for sales.

Edited by FLAW3D
  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Buckwilder said:

Yeah agreed it is not a disaster...but the point is that it is a pretty significant step back (in most people’s opinion), when compared to the first DR game. Supposing we passively suggested the FFB was ok / passable / less than ideal and possibly worth taking a look at. Do you think they would stop and take note and then throw a bunch of resources at it to remedy the problem? Improbable. Squeaky wheel gets the grease boys, and people are passionate about their driving games especially when using expensive driving rigs and simulation equipment on which to enjoy them. Not condoning the rhetoric and disrespect on the forums , but the exaggerated tendencies of the masses on this forum, and the likes of Reddit, Steam etc, was undoubtedly an accumulation of overwhelming frustration based on the fact the game fell well short of expectation and was HIGHLY anticipated by everyone who had the pleasure of playing DR1.

We can go round and round - but the fact is simple: just becuase something is acceptable or tolerable doesn’t make it good or ok. Codies should have added detail to the FFB model from DR1 and what we got instead was an un-carbonated, watered down, vanilla version of it.

No, I think we can all agree that if there wasn't such a vocal outcry the response wouldn't be nearly as drastic or impactful. But you have to realize that is a double-edged sword; because people were so vocal the team now has to go out of their way to really make sure they have addressed any and all potential issues. The outcry was loud enough that people at Codies went "Ok, step back. We need to make sure to get everything right on this next FFB patch or we are about to throw everything we put into this game out of the window. DO NOT RUSH THIS, GET IT RIGHT".

 

So now we are here, 5 weeks later with a dev team who is analyzing every little bit of the FFB and wheel compatibility to try and appease the entire community. They know they only get one more chance at this, so of course they will vie for every last hour they can worth of dev time.

 

So everyone in this thread has some merit - FFB was definitely lackluster (tho IMO and some others', completely acceptable), the dev team needs to address it to ensure everyone is as happy as possible, @ChristinaMc is stuck between two rocks and encased by a hard-place, and no technical/detailed communication will come from the team until after at the very least this "FFB closed test" has been rolled out and the team gets feedback on it.

 

TL;DR - can you blame Codies or the dev team for being so tight lipped about this when the community got so brutal over the FFB? with how loud the outcry was, would it not be worse for them to rush a "fix" that doesn't fully address the issues and burns any bit of trust that is left? Even if going "silent" for a while upsets some, is it not the smarter play while they take their time and do due diligence investigating any/all issues with FFB to address in a single comprehensive overhaul?

Edited by Mike Dee
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

And maybe speak more objectively about ffb. Thousands bought and play the game and as yet only around 100 have commented on FFB being bad. Also whilst I would like some addition to the effects, to call it a disaster is just false.

So you would like people to speak objectively about the FFB, but only if it matches your subjective assessment. If it doesn't, then it's just 'false'. I see.

2 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

I have a really good feeling with the force feedback, and yes I play a lot of Sims and yes I drive real cars etc etc.

Objectively or subjectively speaking?

If you've played a lot of sims, then you would know generically speaking what kinds of forces are usually present and useful when driving.

You would also know that racing sim forums don't fill with hundreds of complaints about a topic unless there is actually a problem. Objectively.

2 hours ago, Rallystu2 said:

Point is everyone has their own opinion, but that's what it is. Not 'broken' or a 'disaster'. But just not what you like or expect, which is fine.

I'm not sure how you can contradict yourself so completely in just three sentences, but well done.

It is many people's opinion that the FFB is broken. That is to say, it is not functioning correctly. Damaged to a point it needs to be fixed.

Many of those people have stated that in their opinion, the lack of FFB means they cannot currently enjoy playing the game.

Objectively, a FFB implementation within a driving game that makes people not want to play is disastrously bad.

It is your opinion that the FFB is "really good".

It is your opinion that other people's opinion is overstated and incorrect.

There is objective evidence that core elements of the FFB in Dirt Rally 2.0 are either absent are unable to be adjusted with the in-game sliders.

There is objective evidence that tweaking XML files raises the value of some forces to level where they can actually be felt.

Subjectively I feel you are selfishly downplaying a very real issue because you don't believe it affects you. That is objectively objectionable.

  • Agree 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JesseDeya said:

So you would like people to speak objectively about the FFB, but only if it matches your subjective assessment. If it doesn't, then it's just 'false'. I see.

Trust me, @Rallystu2 is the last one here trying to fit a narrative. He genuinely wants feedback to make the game better, but he wants it as empirical or descriptive as absolutely possible to give the dev team something very specific to address.

 

2 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

It is many people's opinion that the FFB is broken. That is to say, it is not functioning correctly. Damaged to a point it needs to be fixed.

Describe, preferably in detail what exactly is missing. Not "road feel" or "vibrations", but try and describe exactly what you think is missing. Should the wheel shake 5% of it's SAT when going over gravel, and 10% when it's traversing ruts? 

 

4 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

There is objective evidence that tweaking XML files raises the value of some forces to level where they can actually be felt.

You can also achieve the same thing by adjust in-game settings by lowering certain values to bring out feedback more dramatically. That is objective as you like to say.

 

5 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Subjectively I feel you are selfishly downplaying a very real issue because you don't believe it affects you. That is objectively objectionable.

Subjectively a lot of us here feel you're blowing an (admitted) issue way out of proportion. The argument has never been "FFB is perfect, everyone who says otherwise is wrong", but instead "FFB is good, and while some stuff that'd we like is missing, it doesn't hinder us and the game is still really fun"

We are "downplaying" this issue as much as you and others are "upselling" the issue - which means we end up seeing exactly what Christina is talking about when she says some people like it and some don't so they need to very carefully address the entire thing.

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're going to have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

I think the shear volume of people complaining about the FFB, from day 1, is all the evidence anyone needs to understand the gravitas it deserves. There are 3 or 4 of you here veraciously defending it, and that's your choice, but I don't think it is helpful to the rest of us.

If you want to know what I expect from CM, just look at what they did during Dirt Rally 1.0 development - which was an Early Access title that cost half as much.

27 April 2015 - Released on Steam.

10 June 2015 - Interview with Paul Coleman from Codemasters. 6 weeks after release.

Here is what he said:

Q: What has been done with the incoming Force Feedback patch as compared to what was initially implemented?  How does this implementation affect things like CPU resources vs. the old?  Memory footprint?  New hooks into the physics engine?

A: I’m starting to sound like a bit of a stuck record here but the way we had implemented the FFB at launch was a legacy system that we had been using for our console games. This is an example where that legacy system was not up to the standard that people expected with a PC simulation game and we had a lot of feedback telling us that that is the case. In a nutshell:

As a result the Force Feedback system has been re-written. Forces are now separated into force and friction to make better use of device API and this removes the inverted feeling that some users were experiencing. FFB sampling has been improved as part of the re-write and this supported by both controller and wheel devices.This coupled with more options to refine your setup and a calibration wizard means that this should give the fans the experience they have been asking for.

 It's VERY evident that:

A) Loud and constant feedback prompted the team to get in a fix the FFB

B) Whilst the feedback couldn't be as technically specific as the engineering team would like, it was enough for them to rip it apart and rebuild it.

C) This was done in a matter of weeks, communication was excellent, fault was admitted.

If CMs provided anything close to that today I wouldn't be here flapping my virtual gums. I miss the days when they were passionate about DR - https://www.dirtgame.com/video/watch/TbU6GUDgRMk/dirt-rally-dev-diary--us-

  • Like 1
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

10 June 2015 - Interview with Paul Coleman from Codemasters. 6 weeks after release.

I fully understand your argument, but in your own post you literally say the actual feedback about the situation occurred 6 weeks post launch. Regardless of if this is an EA title or for full release, your example illustrates it takes time to do any kind of meaningful FFB changes and that Codies would rather make these changes and then explain in detail why/what/how/when about them when it's closer to people actually seeing it than making blind guesses 2 weeks into dev.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Headspace10 said:

I have to agree with @Rallystu2 that the FFB isn't nearly as bad as its made out to be. And I have been driving sims for a long time. It takes some adjusting, and I would personally like road effects to be more pronounced (realistic or not).

I would agree if there were any road effects that could be "more pronounced". But there are none. At least not for me and for many other affected users. There is simply nothing that can be adjusted that would give us any sort of road texture vibration. As long as I drive straight ahead on any surface, not matter how rough, the wheel does nothing (aside from occasional bumps from Suspension). This has been tested in detail by myself an others and has been documented in this thread. More than enough specific input to give them an idea what to look for.

Edited by Laserjones
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

I fully understand your argument, but in your own post you literally say the actual feedback about the situation occurred 6 weeks post launch. Regardless of if this is an EA title or for full release, your example illustrates it takes time to do any kind of meaningful FFB changes and that Codies would rather make these changes and then explain in detail why/what/how/when about them when it's closer to people actually seeing it than making blind guesses 2 weeks into dev.

Sigh, no. 

At six weeks (where we are now) they had already taken feedback, conducted analysis and investigation, prepared a patch that completely gutted and rewrote the FFB and were in a position to give interviews about it. 

Note how he says “broken record”. It’s because they had been taking about for some time at that point.

If anything it’s more shocking they have repeated the same error on release of DR 2.0 - 4 yrs later.

BTW, the issues here seem far less severe than they were in DR 1.0 on release. I can’t believe it’s as complex to fix as some of you are presuming it is  

 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Im would agree if there were any road effects that could be "more pronounced". But there are none. At least not for me and for many other affected users. There is simply nothing that can be adjusted that would give us any sort of road texture vibration. As long as I drive straight ahead on any surface, not matter how rough, the wheel does nothing (aside from occasional bumps from Suspension). This has been tested in detail by myself an others and has been documented in this thread. More than enough specific input to give them an idea what to look for.

Agreed. We all agree SAT is fine. It’s all the other parameters that need tweaking to follow suit with road conditions - which are largely comprised of mechanical trail, pneumatic trail, and suspension geometry. DR1 did a very good job for the most part (notwithstanding tarmac). I don’t think we need to hash out the specifics in exact detail as far as percentage points of a given criteria. Like many have noted, FFB is largely subjective depending on the user, and their settings in conjunction with the specific hardware they are using. What everyone also seems to agree on is that the feeling of tires beneath you reacting to road conditions and applied forces (longitudinal/latitudinal), is absent. How much more specific can it be than the above, which has been discussed and reported ad nauseam all over the various social media platforms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

I can’t believe it’s as complex to fix as some of you are presuming it is

Have you ever dev'd for a game studio? Have you ever released software for a large enterprise? I've done the latter, and the amount of hurdles that need to be jumped and hoops you need to clear on a normal project that doesn't have free-reign (ie: exploratory software dev/early access game dev) is annoying as all hell. I won't say I know what is going on inside Codies, but from the sounds of it them completely gutting the FFB or a large majority of it to revert back to DR1 doesn't sound out of the question - especially since they said they rebuilt the FFB from the ground up with what they learned from DR1 & D4.

 

EA gives them a lot more freedom on discussing stuff with the community, and regardless of what you want Codies to do you have to remember they answer to much larger corporate entities. In EA they give them more autonomous reign but once a game has gone gold they will hold those reigns. Unfortunately, that is how the corporate world operates. I honestly believe we'll get a pretty decent insight from Christina/the dev team once the patch is actually released so I'll hold out until then. 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

Have you ever dev'd for a game studio? Have you ever released software for a large enterprise?

No, I don't work in the games industry. I am heavily involved/aware of software drops and avionics updates for the aircraft and simulators I manage. Generally anything can be done if you prioritise it and throw enough resources at it.

4 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

I've done the latter, and the amount of hurdles that need to be jumped and hoops you need to clear on a normal project that doesn't have free-reign (ie: exploratory software dev/early access game dev) is annoying as all hell.

Sure, but every experience is different. Codemasters are a developer AND publisher, which has streamline at least some of the process. 

4 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

I won't say I know what is going on inside Codies, but from the sounds of it them completely gutting the FFB or a large majority of it to revert back to DR1 doesn't sound out of the question - especially since they said they rebuilt the FFB from the ground up with what they learned from DR1 & D4.

I would sure hope it's not a complete gutting - if the FFB component of their engine isn't robust enough to be adjusted without a rewrite then I guess they haven't learnt a thing in 4 years.

4 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

EA gives them a lot more freedom on discussing stuff with the community, and regardless of what you want Codies to do you have to remember they answer to much larger corporate entities.

I don't buy this at all. They are a developer/publisher with their own marketing and PR staff. You can't tell me you actually think their investors have interest in approving ongoing software sustainment and communication efforts.

 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

 

Subjectively I feel you are selfishly downplaying a very real issue because you don't believe it affects you. That is objectively objectionable.

I don't think what I'm doing is selfish, I'm attempting to find a route forward for absolutely everyone, however depending on how you interpret the results, 85% of people don't believe the FFB is the biggest issue, which contradicts the noise on the forums.

What I'm attempting, I hope in a non selfish way, is to collect everybodies voice and put it into a neat and impartial package to send to codemasters. Without bias, and without sarcasm, and bitterness, and just general negativity.

I have no major issue with you, but for some reason you're being a real arse.

I'm trying to turn shouting into ideas of a fix. That everybody can agree on.

My only reason for doing this is to get more content for a game I love. The more anger presented here and everywhere else, the less likely we are to get additional content as codemasters spend 6 months putting out fires. So if we can put a comprehensive priority list together, then maybe that will help a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

I don't think what I'm doing is selfish, I'm attempting to find a route forward for absolutely everyone, however depending on how you interpret the results, 85% of people don't believe the FFB is the biggest issue, which contradicts the noise on the forums.

You know you can chose multiple things in that poll right? I chose 4. Had I (and others) only chosen FFB it would have an even greater percentage lead.

Based on Steam hardware surveys I would hazard a guess that the majority of people (even on this forum) don't use wheels, so another potential way of interpreting the results is that 15% might come closer to representing 50+% of the wheel owners out there. Whether that makes us less important is up for debate, but we're usually the most passionate when it comes to driving games.

21 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

What I'm attempting, I hope in a non selfish way, is to collect everybodies voice and put it into a neat and impartial package to send to codemasters. Without bias, and without sarcasm, and bitterness, and just general negativity.

I have no major issue with you, but for some reason you're being a real arse.

I appreciate your efforts, but that doesn't mean you have to be dismissive of other people's efforts to hold CM's feet to the fire. I'm providing researched, articulate and rational counterpoints to back my position, I make it a point to avoid resorting to the petty name calling leveled against me and others who are equally vocal. Just because it's not the boy scout camp fire with marshmallows you want it to be doesn't make me an arse, it makes you intolerant. 

21 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

I'm trying to turn shouting into ideas of a fix. That everybody can agree on.

Well good luck with that. Not sure what that even means

21 minutes ago, Rallystu2 said:

My only reason for doing this is to get more content for a game I love. The more anger presented here and everywhere else, the less likely we are to get additional content as codemasters spend 6 months putting out fires. So if we can put a comprehensive priority list together, then maybe that will help a little.

Once again, seems kinda selfish. You don't want them wasting time fixing things you don't think are a priority so that they can make more DLC?

I have a little bit of experience in dealing with corporate priorities, contract negotiation and performance metrics. You know what most companies respond to faster than anything? Negative press.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

You know you can chose multiple things in that poll right? I chose 4. Had I (and others) only chosen FFB it would have an even greater percentage lead.

Based on Steam hardware surveys I would hazard a guess that the majority of people (even on this forum) don't use wheels, so another potential way of interpreting the results is that 15% might come closer to representing 50+% of the wheel owners out there. Whether that makes us less important is up for debate, but we're usually the most passionate when it comes to driving games.

I appreciate your efforts, but that doesn't mean you have to be dismissive of other people's efforts to hold CM's feet to the fire. I'm providing researched, articulate and rational counterpoints to back my position, I make it a point to avoid resorting to the petty name calling leveled against me and others who are equally vocal. Just because it's not the boy scout camp fire with marshmallows you want it to be doesn't make me an arse, it makes you intolerant. 

Well good luck with that. Not sure what that even means

Once again, seems kinda selfish. You don't want them wasting time fixing things you don't think are a priority so that they can make more DLC?

I have a little bit of experience in dealing with corporate priorities, contract negotiation and performance metrics. You know what most companies respond to faster than anything? Negative press.

Yea, it's all down to interpretation, and I agree ffb is the main priority at the moment, but that doesn't reflect everybody's opinion. What I'd like is a detailed summary of what you want the ffb to look like.

Me calling you an arse is not petty name calling, but rather a response to the constant attacks, by yourself, aimed at me. Things like "you've been here two seconds" etc just highlight a condescending tone and superiority complex that I don't feel I deserve to be subjected to.

I'd rather you channel your intellect into suggesting a fix, maybe even in tandem with the "holding feet to fires" thing. I just want a comprehensive idea as to what ffb people want, that's all. Nothing else.

I'm not against any individual view, I'm just against the way in which certain views are put across that I feel are not constructive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rallystu2 said:

however depending on how you interpret the results, 85% of people don't believe the FFB is the biggest issue, which contradicts the noise on the forum

I dont think you understand how that poll worked either that or your in training to be a spin doctor for the corrupt politicians 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

I dont think you understand how that poll worked either that or your in training to be a spin doctor for the corrupt politicians 😉

I made it clear that I was offering up an alternative interpretation, which is a valid one. However once I've collated all of the data across the multiple polls then I will put forward an impartial 'letter' to ensure the data speaks as honestly as it appears.

Let's stop the pointless bickering now and crack on working together to get stuff resolved.

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where can I find that poll you are talking about? I'd like to participate.

I agree that there is too much personal bashing here, which dilutes the actual subject and only feeds the (wrong) impression that there is no agreement as to what is broken. What we need is hard facts we can present to Codies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Headspace10 said:

@Rallystu2

One thing I notice in my RL car, and its not something you see in sims generally... when the car is idle, there is a gentle vibration through the wheel. I feel this dissipates once the wheels are in motion, but I would love to see a game incorporate gentle vibration when stationary and idle. Maybe increase vibration along with RPMs and clutch engaged.

This is also present in the game already, but you need a wheel (Fanatec) with a vibration motor. So for example it works on my RSR Porsche Fanatec wheel and it depends on RPMs.  It also is used to vibrate the wheel for gravel/degradation, and it's pretty cool overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

Once again, seems kinda selfish. You don't want them wasting time fixing things you don't think are a priority so that they can make more DLC?

I have a little bit of experience in dealing with corporate priorities, contract negotiation and performance metrics. You know what most companies respond to faster than anything? Negative press.

But why do they need MORE negative press on FFB which they are working on and addressing as best as they can?  Why not just wait a bit for the results?  Heck if they don't make ANY improvement at all in that regard even I will be making negative posts in a few months time about it.  Just wait though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×