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ffb fixed, some comms from devs

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50 minutes ago, bn880 said:

But why do they need MORE negative press on FFB which they are working on and addressing as best as they can?

How do you or any of us know how well they are addressing it? They haven't said anything of substance on the issue in five weeks. Here is the slightly cheeky summary of what they have said:

  • We know some of you want us to look at FFB, we're on to it, don't worry!
  • Most of you are happy with the FFB, some want it closer to DR 1.0.
  • Our handling team really needs to look at this. We want to get it right so it'll take some time, because we're professionals. Please don't ask why we didn't get it right for release.
  • Of all our customers currently beta testing our product, we'll select few of you, using chicken bones and tea leaves, to do a testing for us (for free) on an area we should have paid focus testers to do for us prior to release.
  • Just to reiterate, most of you are happy, some of you want minor tweaks, the rest of you are idiots that don't know what you want.
  • We'll continue to keep you updated, pinky swear. Have a great year! Buy our DLC!
50 minutes ago, bn880 said:

Why not just wait a bit for the results?  Heck if they don't make ANY improvement at all in that regard even I will be making negative posts in a few months time about it.  Just wait though.

Stockholm syndrome 101. Wait a few MONTHS?

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so lets go one by one:

 

Quote

" How do you or any of us know how well they are addressing it? They haven't said anything of substance on the issue in five weeks. "

How do you know they are NOT addressing it.  Their statements are actually of substance.  You are assuming they are basically lying.  You can't call them out on that until you see the results or PROOF correct?  Can you imagine, if they came out several times and said what they did about looking into it, and then doing nothing.  THAT would be extreme negative publicity.  I doubt they are planning on that.

It's the same argument as you have with religious people: "how do you explain this perfect creation, or whatever..." you have to compare the proof that you have, to the proof that you THINK might exist 😉

You have one thing going for your argument and one thing only, that some previous title(s) of CM were not updated/fixed.  That is IT.

Quote

" Stockholm syndrome 101. Wait a few MONTHS? "

Yep, months!  I say this because I actually worked in a sim dev environment for nearly over a decade and understand that you can't scale core dev people working on a single tech that much, that they are often experts on other things and need to leave some time for that, and that FFB is not a simple 0/1 thing to solve.  It's not a trivial problem, each vehicle has different PS, you have many inputs, many different controllers, and everyone wants different things from FFB.  So it has nothing to do with S.S. 101.  I've just been in the thick of things to understand both the dynamics and the complexity of technology.

 

And no, I am not paid by CM and am only a mild fanboy 😉  (hey they are the only ones making a serious push for a realistic rally game, you have to show some respect!)

 

Edited by bn880
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Posted (edited)

Lol, put the bourbon down bn880, you're drunk 🙂

I want to love CMs as much as the next sim racing fan, but it's a pretty abusive one-way relationship right now, ie: we give them money and support one way, and they abuse it.

You know they released the game right? Like, actually released it and sold it to people and everything. It's supposed to work already.

Edited by JesseDeya
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

Lol, put the bourbon down bn880, you're drunk 🙂

I want to love CMs as much as the next sim racing fan, but it's a pretty abusive one-way relationship right now, ie: we give them money and support one way, and they abuse it.

You know they released the game right? Like, actually released it and sold it to people and everything. It's supposed to work already.

Oh so you are relegating to childish comments.  I'm anything but drunk I assure you.

Yeah yeah I know they got paid for the game and at a good price point too, but the body of work users got is there, they are providing fixes over time. (they have already patched up a few times)

There wasn't extensive deception on their part IMO, yes the game was not released as bug free as it could have been, and yes the online racenet thing (that also limits career options) is annoying.  But , either way being unreasonable now doesn't even solve anything!  I'm not really sure what you think you will achieve by being obnoxious to them if they are saying they're working on stuff.  (nothing but a bad rep for yourself I gather)

Their statements that say that a lot of users like the FFB are just them highlighting to us that the issue is not simple to "fix" to please everyone.  And yeah, I buy that, because having a basic understanding of physics and software engineering as well as driving I know this all adds up factually.

 

So, no cherry for you ;  your timeline of NOW just isn't going to happen, even if in a perfect world the FFB should have been a bit better on release. 

 

Edited by bn880

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Posted (edited)

Ok, then maybe have a drink. Christ.

Edited by JesseDeya
Edited because J e s u s was a banned word but Christ wasn't. Lol.
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Posted (edited)

Stockholm syndrome. Seriously? That's next level, beyond polemicising. How would you react if people started talking about Dunning-Kruger-Effekt? Exactly, that's not helping the discussion at all. This kind of shots are fired when you've run out of arguments. It's always the same. smh

Edited by richie
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7 hours ago, richie said:

Stockholm syndrome. Seriously? That's next level, beyond polemicising. How would you react if people started talking about Dunning-Kruger-Effekt? Exactly, that's not helping the discussion at all. This kind of shots are fired when you've run out of arguments. It's always the same. smh

No, your ridiculous reaction to a humourous analogy is the only thing that is 'next level'. I've been keeping it on topic, can you do the same please? There are no shots fired, as much as you would like there to be.

Pretty thinly veiled straw-man though, better luck next time.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, JesseDeya said:

No, your ridiculous reaction to a humourous analogy is the only thing that is 'next level'. I've been keeping it on topic, can you do the same please? There are no shots fired, as much as you would like there to be.

Pretty thinly veiled straw-man though, better luck next time.

Oh, I'm sorry for being off topic, sir! I just can't see any similarity between this discussion and what's happening in the case of a stockholm syndrome, so your 'humorous analogy' doesn't make any sense. I just wanted to point this out because I'm absolutely amazed by the rhetoric in the whole discussion across quite a few threads, and to me it still looks like people run out of arguments when they start polemicising like that. 

You are basically painting the picture of Codies being an aggressor and are making assumptions instead of waiting and see what happens the next few weeks. smh

 

Edited by richie
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Could you please stop the personal fights and stick to the actual topic? We want to contribute to an FFB solution and convince Codemasters to provide meaningful information about the process to the user base. That's all.

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Posted (edited)

How do we know they might not adress it?  -> Dirt4

Edited by Ferranis
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18 minutes ago, richie said:

Oh, I'm sorry for being off topic, sir! I just can't see any similarity between this discussion and what's happening in the case of a stockholm syndrome, so your 'humorous analogy' doesn't make any sense.

I can't help it if you're unable to make the connection, I'm sure it must be frustrating for you.

18 minutes ago, richie said:

You are basically painting the picture of Codies being the aggressor and are making assumptions instead of waiting and see what happens the next few weeks. smh

Aggressor? This isn't a competition mate, we're consumers, they are service providers. It's a simple transaction, but one in which they are currently in default. The reason I'm not content to just "wait and see" is that unlike you I have danced this dance with CMs many times before. If you're happy with the lukewarm FFB they shipped then you really don't need to be in this thread throwing shade at the people trying to get it improved.

4 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Could you please stop the personal fights and stick to the actual topic? We want to contribute to an FFB solution and convince Codemasters to provide meaningful information about the process to the user base. That's all.

I'm in complete agreement, I can't see why fellow gamers and consumers become rabid and foam at the mouth if another dares to remind their beloved developer they have bugs to fix... but reminding them is the ONLY way these problems get the attention they deserve, especially with CMs.

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9 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

I'm in complete agreement, I can't see why fellow gamers and consumers become rabid and foam at the mouth if another dares to remind their beloved developer they have bugs to fix... but reminding them is the ONLY way these problems get the attention they deserve, especially with CMs.

It boggles my mind that you have the audacity to characterise people asking for more reasoned discussion about the game issues as “rabid and foam[ing] at the mouth”. Like, are you actually reading what people like me and Rallystu are writing?

You seem have this idea that we’re some kind of white knights defending the honour of our beloved, but... why? Where does this weird belief come from? What have we said to give this impression? We’ve done nothing but try to rein in the more overtly hostile and childish attitudes in an effort to have productive discussions about the problems and what might be done about them.

You basically have a straw man built up in your head. Stop attacking it and respond to what people are actually saying, and how they’re actually saying it.

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17 minutes ago, JesseDeya said:

I can't help it if you're unable to make the connection, I'm sure it must be frustrating for you.

Aggressor? This isn't a competition mate, we're consumers, they are service providers. It's a simple transaction, but one in which they are currently in default. The reason I'm not content to just "wait and see" is that unlike you I have danced this dance with CMs many times before. If you're happy with the lukewarm FFB they shipped then you really don't need to be in this thread throwing shade at the people trying to get it improved.

 

I'm pretty sure you're projecting your frustration onto me now. The black/white thinking isn't helpful either. Not sure if you noticed but nobody said the FFB feels complete, but it's not as bad as you say, in my view of course. 

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Posted (edited)

Again, would you please stop it, both of you? You will never reach agreement, and it only undermines the purpose of this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if CM already stopped monitoring it due to the amount of useless personal bashing.

Edited by Laserjones
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28 minutes ago, Laserjones said:

Again, would you please stop it, both of you? You will never reach agreement, and it only undermines the purpose of this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if CM already stopped monitoring it due to the amount of useless personal bashing.

There's actually only 1 person in this thread throwing ad hominem at people, and - in my opinion ofc - the only things that undermine the purpose of these threads are exaggerations, (wrong) assumptions, negative and divisive rhetorik and undifferentiated black-and-white thinking. If you were a dev would you like to get involved in discussions with such negativity? I highly doubt it. 

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42 minutes ago, richie said:

There's actually only 1 person in this thread throwing ad hominem at people, and - in my opinion ofc - the only things that undermine the purpose of these threads are exaggerations, (wrong) assumptions, negative and divisive rhetorik and undifferentiated black-and-white thinking. If you were a dev would you like to get involved in discussions with such negativity? I highly doubt it. 

All the more reason to ignore such posts rather than trying to prove people wrong, which is useless (and which both of you keep doing). It just opens a barrel that has no floor. And in order to obey my own advice, I won't say anything more about this now. Back to work please.

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On 4/2/2019 at 11:57 PM, ChristinaMc said:

Hi all, as we've previously, we're still looking into this - as soon as we have an update on this, you'll all be first to know. As a lot of users have mentioned, there are different levels of feedback about the FFB - some are happy with it, some want some tweaking, and some people we're not sure what they want, but we know they're unhappy with it - so there's a lot of investigative work, tinkering and testing to be done. As soon as we're confident that we've got something more in-line with DiRT Rally's feel, we're planning on testing it with some of you - but I can't say when that will be yet! It all depends on how the work goes. It's not an easy job - it will affect all platforms, peripherals, surfaces, cars and disciplines - so whatever we bring, it *needs* to be thoroughly investigated and implemented. 

Christina. Could you please post the status of Dirt Rally 2 patch to the boards at Steam. I think it would behoove you to do so.

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Here is some information I gathered via a poll in the DiRT Rally group on Facebook. I expressly addressed only people who are using an FFB wheel and already made considerable efforts to find good FFB settings.

Note that many participants obviously did not understand that they could (and should) select multiple answers, which is why the total numbers of people responding to a question differ greatly. Facebook polls are rather limited, unfortunately.

23 users said that FFB in DR2 is usable, but needs improvement.
7 users said that FFB is severely broken and they cannot really play that way.
2 users said that FFB works just fine for them.

35 users confirmed that they cannot feel continuous road texture vibration when driving straight ahead on gravel.
No users confirmed that they can feel continuous road texture vibration.

61 users think that continuous road texture vibration is important and feedback from major bumps only is not enough.
39 users think that some continuous road texture vibration should be there on tarmac, too.
1 user said he doesn't care about continuous road texture vibration.

Additional results:

38 users would like to have on-screen explanations of the FFB parameters.
23 users stated that some of their FFB parameters are grayed out.
4 users see additional FFB problems not mentioned in the poll.

So, while we must assume that the portion of people who see no FFB problems is probably higher than indicated here (because dissatisfied people are more likely to respond to such a poll), we have a quite clear result here that confirms that road texture vibration is in fact considered important and is missing in the game.

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Posted (edited)

Did a bunch of a/b testing yesterday turning off all sliders and adding each slider independently. Suspension and Tire friction signals appear to be way underpowered for my t300. I've changed my ffb=5 xml edit down ffb=2 with SAT at approx 45%

I noticed with all sliders off@ 0% I still felt some weird force through the corners...
Tire friction and Suspension are underpowered by a factor of 2 or 3 at 135-150% I actually start to feel some bumps and road ruts. When I had the ffb=5 setting in the xml edit, the SAT would completely drown out these other signals.

by 2x-ing the ffb= it seems to amplify smaller peaks and valleys of the signal.  Of course, this raises the already prominent SAT signals inducing clipping which is why SAT must be turned down. This has the effect of "stretching" the signal waveform to fit the range of the wheel's output.

Edited by Snakeye5

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This is what concerns me a bit. Currently for me on a t300 the sat and friction feel perfect to my liking. While I want other road noise, I do not want it to compromise this feeling through dilution or clipping.

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2 hours ago, Snakeye5 said:

tire or wheel friction?

I'm sure that he means tire friction.

Wheel friction only makes the steering wheel generally harder to turn (regardless of your speed and the angle of your car wheels) and has nothing to do with dynamic driving feedback. It should normally be set to zero or almost zero.

Tire friction is the friction of the tires on the ground that makes the wheel harder to turn as long as the car is standing still or very slow.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2019 at 11:56 PM, afahoy said:

Do you have any numbers to back that up?

No?

No. You’re basing it on the few people here and on Reddit/Steam whining about FFB in variously precise ways.

This should be obvious, but those people are not representative of the entire playerbase. The people who are fine with the FFB are almost exclusively NOT posting on forums or Reddit.

This is my experience with it.  Literally every person I race with (Aus sim racing ps4 league or around 65) who has bought this game (about 50 of them) and says the exact same thing in regard to the **** FFB.  Most have taken it back, I'm holding it and waiting for a fix, the same as they did for Dirt Rally 1.

So the vast majority of users (I personally know) think the FFB is dog poo.

But conversely if you want to be like this, show me your objective evidence that the FFB is good.  Show me one youtube sim racer that isn't on the codies payroll that thinks the FFB in this game is ok, let alone good.  Just one.

No?

No.

*see how much of a tool I come across adding that last bit?

Edited by Ferrethead81
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Posted (edited)

I registered just to say this:

I know DR1 and DR2 likely have different FFB implementations. This said, with identical settings (as much as the game allows because of grayed out sliders), it feels so slippery in comparison.

Understeer? Good luck feeling it.

Oversteer? Bad user settings will make this impossible to feel. (Can't figure mine out)

Overall? I want to like the game. The FFB makes me want to uninstall the game every time I join a race. Oh yeah, multiplayer is against real people, not AI...

 

Edit: Xbox One X and Fanatec gear

Edited by bikedude880
Equipment

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Yeah this is true, hard to feel under/oversteer currently (even if it would be mostly an assist, it's needed as we don't have G forces playing at home)

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