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Fire Up That Car.... Again

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So how is it that one trophy has been patched but not the other, yet again another top tier in the Auidi Quattro and STILL NO TROPHY, that now makes 9 events all in top tier, this is completely unacceptable, you should hire some actual code.... masters it would seem, if I have to wait another month for another damned patch so I can pop my platinum I’m going to be putting my money elsewhere in the future, you’ve already lost sales on the next game for releasing an unpolished title this time, il wait until the next game is finished and cheaper before I spend my hard earned cash, this is beyond a joke now

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I know the trophy/achievement is not working but can you please tell me what the requirement for the top tier is, which you say you placed in successfully multiple times?

With there being four tiers I expected it to be a top 25% time, but yesterday I did the 477th time on the D+ Daily Challenge Group B New England out of 3219 players at the time, which should very comfortably put me in the fastest 25% of times, however the game showed me being *outside* the top tier (towards the top of the second tier, close to the top tier, but not in it).

Even if I discount all players that didn't finish the stage and were listed with a time of 30:00 minutes there were over 2200 players with a time below 30:00 minutes, so again with my 477th time I should have easily been within the top 25%.

So what do you need to do to get into the top tier?

Or do I need to turn off some assists or something?

 

Here also photos from the final results when getting the rewards (looking at the details with the leaderboard):

At the end I placed the 528th time out of 3812 players, which is in the top 13.85%.

Even if I only count the times below 30:00 there are 2632, which would place my time within the top 20.06%.

 

 

1MyTime.JPG

2ValidTimes.JPG

3AllTimes.JPG

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Well it’s probably not working properly either, like so much of the game, in the monthly event for example I think I’m currently 10th or so in the world (PS4) and I’m missing out on the top tier, I don’t think it’s where you place on the leaderboard, I think its a time thing, finishing in a certain time will put you in a tier whether you are 1st or 1000th, I may be wrong but who knows, I always thought it was a leaderboard thing too, but being top page and not top tier seems wrong, as for assists, yeah my advice is turn them all off, drive cockpit and learn to get comfortable with it, unlock tuning for your cars, all that helps shave time, I wouldn’t drive with assists if I was payed lol, I messed up my run too and got top 90, but I’m losing my edge on the game, because of the games issues and the lack of content im losing interest fast, and I’m really trying to stay with it but now this trophy again it’s just a joke, I can’t understand how they’d fix Upgraded and not this, I mean they shouldnt be ‘fixing’ trophies anyway, I feel like asking Codeys, would any of you buy a house unfinished, or buy half a car at full retail, go out to dinner and expect only half of your meal to arrive on the plate... okay then, we’ll we don’t expect to receive something unfinished either, I’m still shaking my head, I mean I can’t even unlock my damned platinum lol my deluxe content is basically free for anyone who didn’t pay for it too, so there’s really nothing deluxe price gets you that others don’t already get, I don’t usually get this frustrated with a franchise but I love Dirt Rally so much I just hate to see it in this position lol

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Just to fully answer you, I go on rants I apologise lol I’ve finished every single Group B daily, ranging from 12th all the way down to 100th or so, and had top tier in all of them, think the count is 9 daily’s now, I’ve made mistakes in some and just managed it, if your just outside the top you have the pace, no assists will be quicker so maybe that’s all you need to do, if your making mistakes ease off I guess, easier to lose a few seconds in the corners than dropping 10sec due to a roll, and if your running clean, push a little more, for me it’s about managing the consistency with the risk, don’t want to go too far either way, wish I had a wheel, I’d maximum attack everything if I had one lol hope this helps anyway, good luck... whenever it actually freaking works... 🙄

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Thanks for your reply, so no one really seems to know how the placement into tiers works 😕

Regarding the game: I wanted to like it but at this point for me it is pretty much only about getting the final achievement and then be done with it.

I love Rally games and have been playing them since Sega Rally, but I am not really into sim racing and I feel DR2 has been made deliberately inaccessible, which I think is a very bad idea.

You have the car physics/handling which the hardcore people say is too arcady, but for me this part is mostly fine, I want it to feel realistic but not also fun, I want to be able to play it without having to think too much about whether I am using a tiny bit too much throttle. So the handling is fine for me, but displeases the hardcore crowd.

And then you have pretty much everything else, which either is only directed to please the hardcore crowd, or is downright stupid.

  • The width of the roads. Yes I get it, the hardcore people want some realistic narrow roads. And it is fine if there are *some* narrow stages/countries. But in this game ALL the events and stages are super narrow and IMHO in an unrealistic way, not ALL roads are that narrow in reality, especially not ALL lanes on ALL street roads in Spain are more narrow than a Group B car like in this game, that I am sure of. Even SEGA Rally got that right 25 years ago, you had 3 normal stages and then if you finished the game without continue you got an extra stage (in the Stratos), which was narrow.
  • The lighting/timing is just dumb, unrealistic and not fun at all. I have a hard time seeing the road due to the lighting pretty much ALL the time, maybe on 10% where it is not hard for me to see the road (I play on Xbox with HDR enabled, which probably makes things even worse). There is ALWAYS something, either you have to race at sunrise or sunset, and ALWAYS against the sun, so you always have to stare into the sun and hardly see the road. Or when it is dusk again it is completely unrealistic, the road basically is almost completely in the dark always, but the sky is still pretty bright. Or you have night stages (where it 95% rains). And even on the very few stages at "normal" time sometimes the lighting is so unrealistic that it still looks like you are driving towards the sun (e.g. doing a 14:00 stage in Australia). That is just stupid and not fun, I want to master my driving on a road that I can see, not drive in some kind of "blind mode" 90% of the time, which is more like a reaction test than driving.
  • The stages are extremely boring, it always looks the same, you hardly ever drive through a village or bridge or something, and even if you do they all look the same. 
    To me the stages look they were procedurally generated like in Dirt 4 with a very low number of assets, and then they just handpicked a few of the auto-generated stages. At least it looks like that to me. Even Sega Rally 25 years ago had more variability in how the four stages looked, and I don't want to get into games like Rallisport Challenge 2, which is also 15 years old or so and looks like they used 10x more assets than in this game.
  • No rewind option. Yes I know hardcore sim players feel like it is cheap, but I don't force them to turn it on. You could even force it off for some or all of the community events, leaderboards, fine. But when I am doing a championship vs. the AI and after 5 hours of playing I lose the whole championship because I make one mistake in that 5 hours and go off a cliff in Argentina, then for me this is not fun at all. After all Rally driving is not my job that I do all day, I want do do this in my free time to relax, not to be stressed out. I have a job which is demanding already and I am not a pro Rally driver that earns money with this and does nothing else than drive Rallies, so FFS why would I be forced to spend 100s or 1000s of hours "training" for a game and then be completely stressed out for hours just to make not one single mistake.
    Again if someone wants all that stress and thinks this is fun, then I have no problem that they turn the rewind option off, like you can do in pretty much all other racing games. But I do not want to be forced to not have this option personally.

So in the end you have a handling model that looks like it is not enjoyed by the hardcore racers, and then you have pretty much everything else which is directed to annoy every other gamer, who is not a hardcore sim races, or things that are just downright stupid.

And in the end this is a mix that really pleases no one.

...so that way my rant ;)

 

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1 hour ago, elp1nko said:

I know the trophy/achievement is not working but can you please tell me what the requirement for the top tier is, which you say you placed in successfully multiple times?

With there being four tiers I expected it to be a top 25% time, but yesterday I did the 477th time on the D+ Daily Challenge Group B New England out of 3219 players at the time, which should very comfortably put me in the fastest 25% of times, however the game showed me being *outside* the top tier (towards the top of the second tier, close to the top tier, but not in it).

Even if I discount all players that didn't finish the stage and were listed with a time of 30:00 minutes there were over 2200 players with a time below 30:00 minutes, so again with my 477th time I should have easily been within the top 25%.

So what do you need to do to get into the top tier?

Or do I need to turn off some assists or something?

 

29 minutes ago, elp1nko said:

Thanks for your reply, so no one really seems to know how the placement into tiers works 😕

Regarding the game: I wanted to like it but at this point for me it is pretty much only about getting the final achievement and then be done with it.

I love Rally games and have been playing them since Sega Rally, but I am not really into sim racing and I feel DR2 has been made deliberately inaccessible, which I think is a very bad idea.

You have the car physics/handling which the hardcore people say is too arcady, but for me this part is mostly fine, I want it to feel realistic but not also fun, I want to be able to play it without having to think too much about whether I am using a tiny bit too much throttle. So the handling is fine for me, but displeases the hardcore crowd.

And then you have pretty much everything else, which either is only directed to please the hardcore crowd, or is downright stupid.

  • The width of the roads. Yes I get it, the hardcore people want some realistic narrow roads. And it is fine if there are *some* narrow stages/countries. But in this game ALL the events and stages are super narrow and IMHO in an unrealistic way, not ALL roads are that narrow in reality, especially not ALL lanes on ALL street roads in Spain are more narrow than a Group B car like in this game, that I am sure of. Even SEGA Rally got that right 25 years ago, you had 3 normal stages and then if you finished the game without continue you got an extra stage (in the Stratos), which was narrow.
  • The lighting/timing is just dumb, unrealistic and not fun at all. I have a hard time seeing the road due to the lighting pretty much ALL the time, maybe on 10% where it is not hard for me to see the road (I play on Xbox with HDR enabled, which probably makes things even worse). There is ALWAYS something, either you have to race at sunrise or sunset, and ALWAYS against the sun, so you always have to stare into the sun and hardly see the road. Or when it is dusk again it is completely unrealistic, the road basically is almost completely in the dark always, but the sky is still pretty bright. Or you have night stages (where it 95% rains). And even on the very few stages at "normal" time sometimes the lighting is so unrealistic that it still looks like you are driving towards the sun (e.g. doing a 14:00 stage in Australia). That is just stupid and not fun, I want to master my driving on a road that I can see, not drive in some kind of "blind mode" 90% of the time, which is more like a reaction test than driving.
  • The stages are extremely boring, it always looks the same, you hardly ever drive through a village or bridge or something, and even if you do they all look the same. 
    To me the stages look they were procedurally generated like in Dirt 4 with a very low number of assets, and then they just handpicked a few of the auto-generated stages. At least it looks like that to me. Even Sega Rally 25 years ago had more variability in how the four stages looked, and I don't want to get into games like Rallisport Challenge 2, which is also 15 years old or so and looks like they used 10x more assets than in this game.
  • No rewind option. Yes I know hardcore sim players feel like it is cheap, but I don't force them to turn it on. You could even force it off for some or all of the community events, leaderboards, fine. But when I am doing a championship vs. the AI and after 5 hours of playing I lose the whole championship because I make one mistake in that 5 hours and go off a cliff in Argentina, then for me this is not fun at all. After all Rally driving is not my job that I do all day, I want do do this in my free time to relax, not to be stressed out. I have a job which is demanding already and I am not a pro Rally driver that earns money with this and does nothing else than drive Rallies, so FFS why would I be forced to spend 100s or 1000s of hours "training" for a game and then be completely stressed out for hours just to make not one single mistake.
    Again if someone wants all that stress and thinks this is fun, then I have no problem that they turn the rewind option off, like you can do in pretty much all other racing games. But I do not want to be forced to not have this option personally.

So in the end you have a handling model that looks like it is not enjoyed by the hardcore racers, and then you have pretty much everything else which is directed to annoy every other gamer, who is not a hardcore sim races, or things that are just downright stupid.

And in the end this is a mix that really pleases no one.

...so that way my rant 😉

 

Have to disagree with some of that, I think the stages are fun to drive, good diversity between fast, technical stages, surface type, everywhere looks different and feels different, I really like that locations, the thing with rewind, it doesn’t help people to practice, if you can just hit a button to go back your never going to take corners seriously, and also to the players who don’t want to use it, if the option is there, u will just use it, I mean if I was on a 16km stage and I screw up on the last sector, I’m using it lol and I can’t stand the rewind, it’s ok in pure arcade games but to me doesn’t belong in a rally game, the whole point of Rally in general is to get to the end of the stage as fast as possible without messing up, so if you remove the danger from the Rallying it’s going to lose its soul if that makes sense, as far as width goes, I thought it was a bit forgiving, and I want to see tighter locations like Ireland in BRC (if that ever comes) and Mexico etc the handling along with much else needs fixing I agree there and I also agree with the lightning and timing of the AI, the AI is what’s forcing me to put the game down if I’m honest, that and the other issues, along with the standards that have seemed to be set fairly low by the devs on this title 

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I do wish it was more sim, the game so far doesn’t really have an identity in that respect, I don’t like hearing about this ‘simcade’ business, either be a sim or be arcade, that’s just me tho, I miss DR1, feathering the Audi Quattro Sport through the tight slippery stages of Sweden felt more sim than anything I’ve played since, and Codeys haven’t captured that since, D4 was a disaster, even with all assists off the game still had default assists... WHY lol and this feels in between the 2, it’s obc Codeys way of trying to stealth some assist in to appeal to a bigger market, but I’m sorry I just have to say ‘git good’ or play something else, or even just enjoy a pure sim, if your not a pro just enjoy the experience and don’t get activated trying to reach top page in the leaderboards if your skill just isn’t there, I’ve heard people saying they want separate leaderboards from the pros basically, I’m like guys, it’s a leaderboard.... meant to place (in order) the skill of us all, so what the Guy in 1300 should be now 1st? Makes no sense, device set ups should be separated, and assist/no assist should be viewable on the board but boards don’t have ‘difficulty tiers’ for a reason lol

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Agree with the assets, no where near enough time was spent on the stages, like having hazards etc I could go on, even like you say, looks like they were just lazy n added loads of rain, even D4 had heavy fog... in USA which is in this game, so where the hell is fog, could have added thunder and lightning to heavy rain, they just missed so much, did the bare minimum to sort of ‘get a pass’ or decent review and seems like they didn’t really care about making it as amazing as it could... should be 

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It’s little things that turn me off too, like setting my windscreen wipers to manual yet they’re automatically on at the start of EVERY stage, so I have to hold my wiper button to turn them off, and when I do, let’s say in rain, the windscreen won’t have less visibility, I could drive a 16km stage in heavy rain with wipers off and maybe use them once just to clear the unrealistic mud splatters, rain has zero effect on view, or let’s say I’m on a long dry gravel stage, sunny so no need to use wipers, they’ll be off the whole stage but the dirt on the windscreen appears gradually in a way that looks like wipers have been used throughout, slight smear effect over centre screen and the edges look like dirt has been pushed up by the invisible wipers lol if I have them off I want the screen to completely dust over, and have to use the wipers to see again, things like that just really irritate me, no sound or spray when going through puddles, wet surfaces won’t kick up thick mud that the wipers would smear before clearing, Codemasters seriously need to sit down and think about what they plan to do for DR3, if I even see a DR3 announcement in the next 3 years I won’t be buying it, it’s going to take them time to sort this franchise out and if there’s another in the next 3 years I don’t see how they will have done enough to really push the title forward, I’m not paying for more of the same 

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Yes the bigger and smaller details...

The events seem to be "carefully" setup so whenever there is a night stage then the game makes damn sure that there is NO services area before that. So if you break the lights in the stage before you can drive through the night without lights... I am no expert in WRC regulations but I am pretty sure they don't have regulations that would force drivers to go into a night stage without lights...

Another thing which for gameplay doesn't matter but which is rather ridiculous: the co driver comments at the end of the stage don't seem to take into consideration how the stage went and how damaged the car is. More than once I had it that the car was basically wrecked, the engine overheating with steam coming from the engine, the tyre punctured with me carrying the car over the finish line on the rims. And then the co driver asks me "How did the car feel in this stage? Do you want to make any setup changes?". How do you think it felt if the car is completely wrecked and we almost died? ROFL

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Yes I know what you mean with the co driver, it’s one of the games lowest points, he sounds so dull too, boring in fact, no excitement in his voice, not even when you reach higher speeds, there’s no dialogue when you spin out or bang off of something, and no dialogue when you crash hard, and like you said the things he says are no where near accurate either at the beginjitor end of stage, pitiful really, it’s 2019 and games are backwards, to give an idea, look at that YouTube video that shows the game mechanics/physics between FarCry 2 and FarCry 5, he simply uses different weapons and shows how the game handles them, for example he fires a flamethrower at the grass and trees, and long story short FC 2 back in 2008/9 or when ever it was, is MILES better, bar the graphics etc ofc, also he shoots an enemy in the leg on both games and the reactions between the two are so different, again FC2 being miles better, I say this because I notice it with a lot of games, graphics get better but the developing gets lazier and lazier, proving the point I keep making, about the standards of gaming, both from dev and consumer perspectives 

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Maybe they have to invest so much money in graphics and stuff nowadays that they don't have enough for the details anymore I dunno.

Maybe it is also that the top games take away too much of the pie. If you check for example the number of registered players on True Achievements that have Forza Horizon 4 vs. the ones that have Dirt Rally 2.0 then the number of players of FH4 is 100 times (!) more than that of DR2.0. Which ultimately means that for development of FH5 they can have 100 times more budget than a DR3.0 could have...

And those huge budget games are getting better, one example is Red Dead Redemption. I never got into RDR1 and didn't understand the hype, but I did get into RDR2 now and completed it. And now that I have done RDR2 I thought I give RDR1 another try, maybe I understand the hype now - but I still don't understand it. RDR2 is so much better in almost all aspects, so there can be a huge improvement if they want to and if there is the budget (of course RDR2 had a huuuuuuuuuuge budget, rumored to be close to one billion USD....). (But RDR2 still has a significant number of very very bad game design decisions).

But that is also why I think Codemasters' decision to make the game so hard and inaccessible is a very bad decision, because it makes the potential player base so much smaller and I think it IS possible to make a game that appeals to both hardcore and more casual players, and if you can then increase the budget significantly then you will have a game that even in the hardcore aspects can be better than a "hardcore only" game.

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20 hours ago, elp1nko said:

Yes the bigger and smaller details...

The events seem to be "carefully" setup so whenever there is a night stage then the game makes damn sure that there is NO services area before that. So if you break the lights in the stage before you can drive through the night without lights... I am no expert in WRC regulations but I am pretty sure they don't have regulations that would force drivers to go into a night stage without lights...

Another thing which for gameplay doesn't matter but which is rather ridiculous: the co driver comments at the end of the stage don't seem to take into consideration how the stage went and how damaged the car is. More than once I had it that the car was basically wrecked, the engine overheating with steam coming from the engine, the tyre punctured with me carrying the car over the finish line on the rims. And then the co driver asks me "How did the car feel in this stage? Do you want to make any setup changes?". How do you think it felt if the car is completely wrecked and we almost died? ROFL

 

1 hour ago, elp1nko said:

Maybe they have to invest so much money in graphics and stuff nowadays that they don't have enough for the details anymore I dunno.

Maybe it is also that the top games take away too much of the pie. If you check for example the number of registered players on True Achievements that have Forza Horizon 4 vs. the ones that have Dirt Rally 2.0 then the number of players of FH4 is 100 times (!) more than that of DR2.0. Which ultimately means that for development of FH5 they can have 100 times more budget than a DR3.0 could have...

And those huge budget games are getting better, one example is Red Dead Redemption. I never got into RDR1 and didn't understand the hype, but I did get into RDR2 now and completed it. And now that I have done RDR2 I thought I give RDR1 another try, maybe I understand the hype now - but I still don't understand it. RDR2 is so much better in almost all aspects, so there can be a huge improvement if they want to and if there is the budget (of course RDR2 had a huuuuuuuuuuge budget, rumored to be close to one billion USD....). (But RDR2 still has a significant number of very very bad game design decisions).

But that is also why I think Codemasters' decision to make the game so hard and inaccessible is a very bad decision, because it makes the potential player base so much smaller and I think it IS possible to make a game that appeals to both hardcore and more casual players, and if you can then increase the budget significantly then you will have a game that even in the hardcore aspects can be better than a "hardcore only" game.

Yea I see what you mean, but Codeys also have the official F1 games which real in some decent profit, what Dirt Rally should be isn’t out of reach for Codemasters, it would just take more resources, if they did it it would attract a bigger market, I know lots of players simply on my friends list that are big into racers and decide not to buy Dirt because of its lack of content, you spend more to make more in effect, yes it’s a gamble but the last thing they wanna do is neglect pushing the franchise in this direction, all that’s going to achieve is upsetting some of the consumer base they do have, I like many others won’t dtick around for just ‘more of the same’ I honestly expected to see everything I saw in the previous games plus much more, hazards and obstacles on track, tons more options ranging from much more cars down to picking what co driver you want, I could go on, as I’ve said before one of the biggest backlash Codeys have faced with Dirt Rally was content, and with 2.0 they’ve tried to tackle that by giving us what we already own/ or have already played, except they’ve stripped a lot of good cars out of the pool, they should be adding to the collection not pulling cars to add different ones, and so far we’ve lost more cars than we’ve gained, I don’t count these dlc cars as new because they should already be there, and speaking of RDR2, Rockstar make ONE game every 7 years, their bank balance is doing just fine, because they pour resources into it and make it epic, and that’s what people want, they waste a lot of resources too on the online, that’s the corporate greedy side of R* and it only damages them if I’m honest, they could double the resources on the single player and imagine how much better it would have been with no mp, so with Dirt all I’m saying is I’d rather get sat back and started addressing the issues with this game, I’d expect we’d all rather wait an extra year or 2 to have a full polished well thought of and designed rally game than just more of the same every year or so 

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I think I might have found the solution to my original question about how players and times are placed in the tiers:

Today in the reward details section of yesterday's daily challenge it also showed the times required for the tiers. I then checked the ranking of the players with exactly these times and then divided the rank by the total number of players:

The last tier 1 driver was the last one within the TOP 10% of times.
The last tier 2 driver was the last one within the TOP 35% of times.
The last tier 3 driver was the last one within the TOP 75% of times.

My time was within the top 24.3% and it showed my a tiny bit worse than in the middle of the second tier, which is as expected (as the middle of the 2nd tier according to this logic should be at 22.5%).

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For the ones with only two tiers it looks like a top 50% time is sufficient to be in the top tier.

 

But man this game is so frustrating and stupid.....

Did two of the dailies and AGAIN it is just STUPID: the RX OF COURSE is again in HEAVY RAIN and the Group A one in New Zealand AGAIN in the NIGHT.

Sorry for shouting but this is just PLAIN STUPID, racing events are NOT 90% in night or other poor visibility and poor track condition settings, quite the OPPOSITE!

And in the night stages the lights seem to be made out of sugar or something. Without hardcore damage you can hit a tree etc.etc. no problem, the car usually is still driving, but the LIGHTS, OF COURSE they break ALL THE TIME, so you can have "fun" driving through the night blind.....

And don't get me started about the "penalty system": the time penalty you get seems to depend solely on how far off the track you are when the game resets you. You make a small mistake and are off the track and can't get back due to a fence or something and you say "reset reset reset" and while you wait for the game to reset you you drive a bit off (because you cannot get back to the road over the fence) and you get a HUGE penalty, I just got a 50s (!) penalty for something like that. But if you have a HUGE crash, but the car lies just a few meters off the road you just get a tiny 4s penalty or so. This is just plan STUPID!

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32 minutes ago, elp1nko said:

For the ones with only two tiers it looks like a top 50% time is sufficient to be in the top tier.

 

But man this game is so frustrating and stupid.....

Did two of the dailies and AGAIN it is just STUPID: the RX OF COURSE is again in HEAVY RAIN and the Group A one in New Zealand AGAIN in the NIGHT.

Sorry for shouting but this is just PLAIN STUPID, racing events are NOT 90% in night or other poor visibility and poor track condition settings, quite the OPPOSITE!

And in the night stages the lights seem to be made out of sugar or something. Without hardcore damage you can hit a tree etc.etc. no problem, the car usually is still driving, but the LIGHTS, OF COURSE they break ALL THE TIME, so you can have "fun" driving through the night blind.....

And don't get me started about the "penalty system": the time penalty you get seems to depend solely on how far off the track you are when the game resets you. You make a small mistake and are off the track and can't get back due to a fence or something and you say "reset reset reset" and while you wait for the game to reset you you drive a bit off (because you cannot get back to the road over the fence) and you get a HUGE penalty, I just got a 50s (!) penalty for something like that. But if you have a HUGE crash, but the car lies just a few meters off the road you just get a tiny 4s penalty or so. This is just plan STUPID!

They have toned it down, but in Codeys defence, daily’s weekly’s and monthly’s are designed to be a challenge, more so than usual so I don’t mind the weather, I’ve leaned to race in all conditions so I’m never really bothered, does get annoying when I do a weekly in Spain and I have to use rain tyres the entire time even though most of the stages are dry, but that adds to the challenge I like it, haven’t played career for a week I’m not bothering until they fix the AI, but I understand your frustration when your trying to earn that last trophy lol gonna have to just keep practicing and pushing, I mean it isn’t working yet anyway, I nailed my S1 daily today, well bit slow but in terms of tier it’s currently maxed but it will drop as the day continues, comfortable il stick top tier though even if it is pointless atm

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