AI Times Are Completely Off

[ewandwhoelse 7]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:15 AM, somethingthing said:

But why does it matter? Do you NEEED to place in the top3? You say that the best AI times are at the level of the human leaderboards and then its possible to get there and winning a masters career is something that really takes a lot of practice and skill, just as winning or getting a good place the dailys. They didnt make make a game for the "bullies", they made the hardest difficulty more difficult.

Sorry but that's a complete load. Name one other game where in order to win the campaign/story/career you need to literally beat the best records ever set. Even real life sport doesn't work like that, you don't need to beat a world record in order to win a race/sporting event, in fact they are world records because they aren't routinely beaten. You're simply engaging in apologetics. You've got a whole thread of people who are really good at this game saying that it isn't working - things like AI cars being completely unaffected by weather, for example. 
Codies have **** the bed on this one. 

[Mike Dee 1,246]

1 hour ago, ewandwhoelse said:

Sorry but that's a complete load. Name one other game where in order to win the campaign/story/career you need to literally beat the best records ever set.

It's almost as if My Team isn't actually a career mode. It's almost as if My Team was just a ladder to see how far you could climb. An artificial leaderboard for you to chase.

You "beat" the career mode the second you finished the Open Championship. Congratulations! There is literally nothing more to do after finishing Open from a "career" perspective. Seriously, the "campaign" is over. Think about it, What is the difference between Open and Clubman? A couple more stages per event and locations per championship, with faster AI. That is all any of the increases in difficulty are. They don't add new content or new missions/locations/etc. It's the same thing just harder. So why are you mad they just keep making the game harder for those who want to challenge themselves?

In the perfect world there would be no end after Masters and they'd have been able to craft AI that continuously lowers the times so we can keep challenging ourselves, maybe using WRs from the leaderboards to design the lines.

Edited March 6 by Mike Dee

[BlackiusBirdius 1]

I'm finding the ai savage on the historic 3 rwd championship- specifically Poland. Couldn't keep up whatsoever (racing cleanly, no major mistakes) on normal difficulty... Dropped it to 35.. dropped it to 1... And just lost stage 2 by 8 seconds. Not really sure where I'm going wrong, did the first stage pretty much flat out and won by a few seconds only. Pretty heartbreaking to realise I can't keep up with the ai on very easy... But do consistently well elsewhere?

 

Any tips?

[Mike Dee 1,246]

9 minutes ago, BlackiusBirdius said:

I'm finding the ai savage on the historic 3 rwd championship- specifically Poland. Couldn't keep up whatsoever (racing cleanly, no major mistakes) on normal difficulty... Dropped it to 35.. dropped it to 1... And just lost stage 2 by 8 seconds. Not really sure where I'm going wrong, did the first stage pretty much flat out and won by a few seconds only. Pretty heartbreaking to realise I can't keep up with the ai on very easy... But do consistently well elsewhere?

 

Any tips?

This is hard to give specific advice without seeing how you drive. What car are you using? I also think the game seems to bottom out with AI difficulty in some scenarios, where changing between 1-35 AI means they still drive the same speed - some might just crash more often.

Poland is a weird location too just because of how high speed it is. My guess is going to be that you're losing time in the flatout sections since most people tend to catch the AI in the tighter more technical corners if they have decent car control. Poland in H3, at least during the fast 5s and 6s should be flatout throttle to the floor while your tachs bounce off the limiter. 

The key is to just keep at it though. Keep racing, be it in time trials or dialies or My Team. One weekend you'll struggle to keep pace, the next weekend you'll realize you're 5 seconds ahead of the leader even though you made 4 mistakes on the stage. You'll find the speed with time

[BlackiusBirdius 1]

On 4/5/2019 at 6:41 AM, Tranzitive said:

Poland in general the AI seem super-fast.

Also a Poland specific bug is on the stage with the cobbles section, the AI gain massive amounts of time through that section. it's the same even in Historic championship with the AI difficulty set way down so it's not even specific to the career mode difficulty levels.

This. Was getting destroyed on ai set to 1: 8 seconds down and I didn't mess up whatsoever. No idea how to do that section any faster but hey ho. 

[ianism 1,315]

5 hours ago, BlackiusBirdius said:

I'm finding the ai savage on the historic 3 rwd championship- specifically Poland. Couldn't keep up whatsoever (racing cleanly, no major mistakes) on normal difficulty... Dropped it to 35.. dropped it to 1... And just lost stage 2 by 8 seconds. Not really sure where I'm going wrong, did the first stage pretty much flat out and won by a few seconds only. Pretty heartbreaking to realise I can't keep up with the ai on very easy... But do consistently well elsewhere?

Any tips?

ok first of all: Poland has some of the harder AI times of any location in the game. second, I don't know what you use to play the game, but the RWD cars are easily the hardest to drive fast, especially if you don't have a wheel. I'm a little above average at this game. I play on keyboard (sorry) and have to turn down the difficulty for RWD classes quite a bit. I can take the AI in most of the FWD and 4WD classes (except Group B) with the difficulty set around 55-75. for RWD cars I have to lower it to 35-50 because it's just so much harder to drive.

also, keep in mind that the AI difficulty is dynamic. that's really important, because even with it turned down to 1, you lost a stage by 8 seconds. but the stage before, you won. how it works basically is that if you come first, the AI gets a little better. if you're losing (like getting 2-5th) several stages in a row, one or two of the top drivers can have a bad stage or even get terminal damage. this is relatively common, because the top driver in an event (if it's not you) is often quite a lot faster than the other AI drivers. this person is at high risk of getting a DNF at some point. this is by design. it's to give you fast times to chase, but if you crash a lot trying to get them, the game will take them away and make it a little easier by giving that driver an accident. pretty crazy, eh?

it's limited of course though. if you're just too good for a difficulty level, the AI isn't going to keep getting better and better until it's at your level. it'll get better to a maximum, and then stay there (and the top AI driver won't crash). same with if you're consistently getting 20th-30th: maybe a few AI drivers will have bad stages and push you to like 18th overall, but that's it.

so yeah, the way the AI times work is not explained at all in the game, and I think it should be, because honestly it's quite a lot more advanced than people think. it's not perfect: it doesn't slow down enough in bad weather or at night, it's imbalanced between different car classes and rally locations, but it's otherwise not bad. it worked similarly in Dirt 4 (not sure about DR1).

[redrook 7]

21 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

It's almost as if My Team isn't actually a career mode. It's almost as if My Team was just a ladder to see how far you could climb. An artificial leaderboard for you to chase.

You "beat" the career mode the second you finished the Open Championship. Congratulations! There is literally nothing more to do after finishing Open from a "career" perspective. Seriously, the "campaign" is over. Think about it, What is the difference between Open and Clubman? A couple more stages per event and locations per championship, with faster AI. That is all any of the increases in difficulty are. They don't add new content or new missions/locations/etc. It's the same thing just harder. So why are you mad they just keep making the game harder for those who want to challenge themselves?

In the perfect world there would be no end after Masters and they'd have been able to craft AI that continuously lowers the times so we can keep challenging ourselves, maybe using WRs from the leaderboards to design the lines.

I disagree with literally every sentence of this post for reasons which have already been covered in this thread. 

If you were right the differences would be far more incremental, but they are not. The difference between open and clubman etc. is that that is how real rally driving is essentially formatted. Not with those monikers, but the implication is that you're working your way up to pro/top level. You know, the format of just about every sports game with a career. If DR2 is going to buck the trend of every game ever then it should be at least clear about that format, which it is not. 

This is all a distraction however, because you've also missed the point of this thread completely, which has been pointed out numerous times, that the AI is completely inconsistent and unaffected by elements which affect the player. That is not deliberate for the sake of challenge, that is bad game design. For a game which is supposed to be realistic, this is pretty awful.

[redrook 7]

21 hours ago, BlackiusBirdius said:

I'm finding the ai savage on the historic 3 rwd championship- specifically Poland. Couldn't keep up whatsoever (racing cleanly, no major mistakes) on normal difficulty... Dropped it to 35.. dropped it to 1... And just lost stage 2 by 8 seconds. Not really sure where I'm going wrong, did the first stage pretty much flat out and won by a few seconds only. Pretty heartbreaking to realise I can't keep up with the ai on very easy... But do consistently well elsewhere?

 

Any tips?

Poland is an anomaly, the speeds you're expected to maintain in order to do well can't even keep up with the draw distance of the game - especially on the ps4. It's not just you. The trick is to just know the track very, very well to the point where you know what's coming up.

[ewandwhoelse 7]

16 hours ago, ianism said:

keep in mind that the AI difficulty is dynamic. that's really important, because even with it turned down to 1, you lost a stage by 8 seconds. but the stage before, you won. how it works basically is that if you come first, the AI gets a little better.

What an absolutely awful way to design a game, especially a game which calls itself a sim! If someone wins a race irl, the opposition doesn't magically get better. It's just a horrible way to design it.

Edited March 7 by ewandwhoelse

[ianism 1,315]

39 minutes ago, ewandwhoelse said:

What an absolutely awful way to design a game, especially a game which calls itself a sim! If someone wins a race irl, the opposition doesn't magically get better. It's just a horrible way to design it.

nonsense. in real life, nothing happens in a bubble. the performance of drivers differs according to the performance of those around them: if someone goes through a time check, their performance is going to be different if they're up by 20 seconds versus down by 5. this is a gameified imitation of that.

but who cares, really? it's to present more or less of a challenge so that the player's level is matched better. it's a video game: an exact simulation of real life is not always desirable. something that is farther from reality isn't automatically "bad design". on the contrary, this system is something that conveys reality* but does so in a way that makes the game more enjoyable for the player because it's more competitive. I call that good design. if you want perfect simulation, go play the game in a rally car going full tilt down a stage, so that you have to wear a helmet, you feel the the g-forces, there's mud and rain, you can't hear the co-driver well, damage actually matters, etc etc etc.

*to an extent: AI drivers don't adjust the level every time check, just every stage

[PJTierney 4,842]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:47 PM, ianism said:

also, keep in mind that the AI difficulty is dynamic. that's really important, because even with it turned down to 1, you lost a stage by 8 seconds. but the stage before, you won. how it works basically is that if you come first, the AI gets a little better. if you're losing (like getting 2-5th) several stages in a row, one or two of the top drivers can have a bad stage or even get terminal damage. this is relatively common, because the top driver in an event (if it's not you) is often quite a lot faster than the other AI drivers. this person is at high risk of getting a DNF at some point. this is by design. it's to give you fast times to chase, but if you crash a lot trying to get them, the game will take them away and make it a little easier by giving that driver an accident. pretty crazy, eh?

it's limited of course though. if you're just too good for a difficulty level, the AI isn't going to keep getting better and better until it's at your level. it'll get better to a maximum, and then stay there (and the top AI driver won't crash). same with if you're consistently getting 20th-30th: maybe a few AI drivers will have bad stages and push you to like 18th overall, but that's it.

 

On 3/7/2020 at 1:53 PM, ewandwhoelse said:

What an absolutely awful way to design a game, especially a game which calls itself a sim! If someone wins a race irl, the opposition doesn't magically get better. It's just a horrible way to design it.

 

 

@ianism is incorrect here.

 

AI in DiRT Rally 2.0 works similar to how it does in DiRT Rally:

 

Quote

http://blog.codemasters.com/dirt/12/dirt-rally-road-book-181215/

 

For Dirt Rally we have changed how we simulate the virtual AI times you see as split times and in the results table. Rather than using an automated system to generate AI lap times over a variety of difficulties we now run a simulation per driver to calculate each split section factoring in ongoing damage events and punctures. This simulation is also used to complete finished rallycross events, and the other group and semi-final events you are not racing in.

We start with the best possible split time per section for every track and car combination. This is called the Bogey Time and we use our fastest racer on the team, Michael Robson (who you might have seen demonstrating the latest cars and tracks in our Dirt twitch shows!). This gives us a consistent starting point for calculating each driver’s split time throughout a rally/hillclimb/rallycross competition. The generated AI driver split times will always be slower than the bogey times, so we know they should be beatable by skilled Players.

For Dirt Rally we currently have 75 levels of driver skill, and these are used to setup the spread of driver abilities you see in the various championship tier and custom event difficulties. As you have already figured out, our designers include a higher skilled AI driver in each tier but the spread of difficulties should vary enough to challenge you to reach a podium finish. When setting up a championship each AI driver can further modify their skill level with a bonus to reflect a specific country they are good or bad in.

Each driver skill level consists of 8 variables that can be tweaked by a designer:

• Min variation – Minimum percentage variation of Bogey Time.
• Min variation – Minimum percentage variation of Bogey Time.
• Max variation – Maximum percentage variation of Bogey Time.
• Wet percentage – Percentage change for wet stages.
• Night percentage – Percentage change for night stages.
• Damage probability – Probability per split section of a damage event.
• Puncture probability – Probability per split section of a puncture.
• Min damage level – Minimum damage level event that can be rolled.
• Max damage level – Maximum damage level event that can be rolled.

Once we have the final skill level for every AI driver each stage is simulated as follows:

If in service area

• Check to repair punctures (Checks if driver has any spares available)
• Check to repair damage (Not all damage events can be repaired fully in the time available)

For each split section in order:

• If not retired and no current damage event then roll against damage probability to see if driver has damaged vehicle

If damaged

• Roll a damage level between min and max from driver skill table.
• Roll a random damage event type (This is the description you see in the results screen).
• A retirement damage level will end the race for the AI driver here.

If not damaged then roll for puncture against the puncture probability from the driver skill table.

• Calculate final split time
   
• Set split time to current Bogey Time for that section based on car and track combination.
• Add a random percentage to split time between min and max variation from the driver skill table. (This is the main difficulty modifier)
• Add a percentage to split time for any wet race bonus, if applicable.
• Add a percentage to split time for any night race bonus, if applicable.
• Add a percentage to split time depending on number of punctures and any penalties for carrying unused spare tires.
• Add a percentage to split time for any current damage event level.

With this system we can balance both the speed and the risks of higher level damage to AI drivers of different difficulties. Having a simulation for generating virtual AI driver times allows us more flexibility to model opponents over a full championship, and to add in future variables which would not be possible with a more basic database of times approach.

 

The system is largely similar, but with additional variances based on DiRT Rally 2.0 features, like weather, tyre wear etc.

I believe @EvansR5 and @jonny174 set the Bogey Times now since they're the fastest guys we have.

 

AI times are not dynamically scaled based on human performance.

[HoksuHoo 563]

Quote

With this system we can balance both the speed and the risks of higher level damage to AI drivers of different difficulties. Having a simulation for generating virtual AI driver times allows us more flexibility to model opponents over a full championship, and to add in future variables which would not be possible with a more basic database of times approach.

 Yeah and you can have a gigantic mismatch in rallycross random AI times vs. the drivers in your qualifier.

Maybe, just maybe, a more basic approach could be a good idea when you super hyper advanced AI simulation makes singleplayer rallycross unplayable on certain difficulties

And with no mention in 1.13 patch notes so apparently singleplayer rallycross remains broken forever thanks to your super hyper advanced AI simulation, awesome

[MattyH1812 349]

17 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

 Yeah and you can have a gigantic mismatch in rallycross random AI times vs. the drivers in your qualifier.

Maybe, just maybe, a more basic approach could be a good idea when you super hyper advanced AI simulation makes singleplayer rallycross unplayable on certain difficulties

And with no mention in 1.13 patch notes so apparently singleplayer rallycross remains broken forever thanks to your super hyper advanced AI simulation, awesome

Been reporting this for god knows how long, and seeing no mention of any fix in 1.13 makes me wanna just uninstall and forget about the game

[redrook 7]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:55 PM, ianism said:

nonsense. in real life, nothing happens in a bubble. the performance of drivers differs according to the performance of those around them: if someone goes through a time check, their performance is going to be different if they're up by 20 seconds versus down by 5. this is a gameified imitation of that.

but who cares, really? it's to present more or less of a challenge so that the player's level is matched better. it's a video game: an exact simulation of real life is not always desirable. something that is farther from reality isn't automatically "bad design". on the contrary, this system is something that conveys reality* but does so in a way that makes the game more enjoyable for the player because it's more competitive. I call that good design. if you want perfect simulation, go play the game in a rally car going full tilt down a stage, so that you have to wear a helmet, you feel the the g-forces, there's mud and rain, you can't hear the co-driver well, damage actually matters, etc etc etc.

*to an extent: AI drivers don't adjust the level every time check, just every stage

Lol what complete bunk. For a start, we're not talking about a few seconds here and there as drivers react to a bit more pressure. Secondly that is actually not how racing drivers react in real life - but that's irrelevant as you go on to say that you don't want a real-life experience, so which is it?

And thirdly, this is not how the game works as the Devs have just called you out for being wrong - I suggest you stop being an apologist for what appears to be poor game design by making things up 

Who cares really? Well, there's a whole thread about it so...
Just because you don't care doesn't mean other people are wrong. Half the time people use the "it's realistic" excuse for some things, then other times say you don't want a realistic experience. You can't have realism a la carte for the same reason you can't tell other people what to care about. 

Edited March 15 by redrook

[redrook 7]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:13 PM, PJTierney said:

AI times are not dynamically scaled based on human performance.

They don't appear to be affected by weather, the dark, road conditions or anything else really either...

I mean, look at some of the screenshots, it's nuts. Seems that if you're not putting up top 10 in the world times you're not getting past Elite level. I'm going to keep working at it and improve, but I'll never be putting up the times I would need to to progress in career beyond this level.

The art of creating a truly solid game is to make things only just within (or perhaps just outwith) reach, but to need to be one of the best in the world to progress, well, meh, seems pointless. I was placing top 3 in Masters in DR1, so I can see the need for a little more challenge for better players, but to this extent is just a bit silly.

Edited March 15 by redrook

[ianism 1,315]

2 hours ago, redrook said:

Lol what complete bunk. For a start, we're not talking about a few seconds here and there as drivers react to a bit more pressure. Secondly that is actually not how racing drivers react in real life - but that's irrelevant as you go on to say that you don't want a real-life experience, so which is it?

And thirdly, this is not how the game works as the Devs have just called you out for being wrong - I suggest you stop being an apologist for what appears to be poor game design by making things up 

Who cares really? Well, there's a whole thread about it so...
Just because you don't care doesn't mean other people are wrong. Half the time people use the "it's realistic" excuse for some things, then other times say you don't want a realistic experience. You can't have realism a la carte for the same reason you can't tell other people what to care about. 

this whole thing is irrelevant now anyways, but to respond to your argument that the way I was arguing was essentially hypocritical by trying to have it both ways, my points were:

• what you was describing about the game being unrealistic because it was dynamic was incorrect because that's always going to happen in real life. it's pretty basic psychology really. that's why in road cycling for example some riders get their teams to tell them they are closer to the leaders than they really are, so they are more motivated to push themselves to the limit. the whole point is moot, as that's not how the AI works anyways. 
• a more general point about realism in video games that lean towards sim. you seemed to be saying that anything that is unrealistic in a game like this is demonstrably "worse". I was pointing out how that sweeping statement is obviously nonsense.

so two different lines of argument. is it really that difficult to parse?

finally, this thread was originally about AI difficulty being different across different classes. if you'd gone and checked that, you might have noted that those issues have mostly been fixed (though not completely). and yeah, the nighttime/bad weather/etc ai is still too fast. I've already said that on this very page, but again, you didn't check.

[redrook 7]

3 hours ago, ianism said:

this whole thing is irrelevant now anyways, but to respond to your argument that the way I was arguing was essentially hypocritical by trying to have it both ways, my points were:

• what you was describing about the game being unrealistic because it was dynamic was incorrect because that's always going to happen in real life. it's pretty basic psychology really. that's why in road cycling for example some riders get their teams to tell them they are closer to the leaders than they really are, so they are more motivated to push themselves to the limit. the whole point is moot, as that's not how the AI works anyways. 
• a more general point about realism in video games that lean towards sim. you seemed to be saying that anything that is unrealistic in a game like this is demonstrably "worse". I was pointing out how that sweeping statement is obviously nonsense.

so two different lines of argument. is it really that difficult to parse?

finally, this thread was originally about AI difficulty being different across different classes. if you'd gone and checked that, you might have noted that those issues have mostly been fixed (though not completely). and yeah, the nighttime/bad weather/etc ai is still too fast. I've already said that on this very page, but again, you didn't check.

I did check, I've read the whole thing, and I didn't say you hadn't said that...so, that's a non sequitur.

I didn't seem to be saying anything or making any sweeping statements. You chose that interpretation in order to argue. It's not "worse", the point was that you can't pick and choose what's "realistic" if you're going to use "realism" as an argument for/against something. So yes, you were essentially being hypocritical. On the one hand you're using realism as an argument, while on the other you're saying you don't want realism. That's not hard to parse 

Some people derail threads by baiting others, telling them what they should care about, and generally being condescending. Some people feel entitled to this game (and other sim games) and to tell others what to do/think based on what they think the game is/should be. I don't think they are entitled to that. Let's not turn this into other certain forums which shall remain nameless.

Yes, there are ongoing AI issues as evidenced by very recent posts, let's just leave it at that.

Edited March 15 by redrook

[Tigron 47]

Codemaster, please tell me how do I suppose to drive this? This is today's AI daily challenge. AI was more than a minute faster flatting out like there is no rain. And I was barely able to see the road.

 

[somethingthing 279]

8 hours ago, Tigron said:

Codemaster, please tell me how do I suppose to drive this? This is today's AI daily challenge. AI was more than a minute faster flatting out like there is no rain. And I was barely able to see the road.

 

Push harder!

 

and yes im aware that the AI seems to not care about rain. Maybe the one setting the AI times was driving in hood cam or 3rd person?

Edited March 31 by somethingthing

[DarkRedslayer 43]

The whole AI stupidly fast in rain thing is why I no longer use weather in any of my custom championships. I go along unable to see anything and they smoke me with ease lol. It's just not enjoyable.

[cjhill 9]

I tested this on the sweet lamb stage in wales in the Subaru Impreza 1995.

Dry conditions i won the stage by 8 seconds despite a minor off

Wet conditions i felt i drove a solid stage, best i could and ended up 14 seconds down.

I notice this most in career mode but want to do an offline championship so I can set it at a difficulty level where i get a good competitive rally each time. Even the AI performace is inconsistent though I find. Some rallies i'll win by say 30 seconds whilst others i'll be mid to low table over 2 minutes down

This does need addressing. Either they have no intention of fixing it or they can't work out how to, otherwise surely this would be been addressed by now

Edited April 1 by cjhill

[danielofifi 451]

Has anyone won Masters in RGT class? Elite was hard but fair, but on Masters I'm getting my ass kicked everywhere but on tarmac.

[VolusiaF5 8]

Have these issues been fixed in an update yet?

I played the hell out of DR1 until I came first in the Masters championship.

After that I moved straight to DR2 and am playing that now. I have worked up to Masters in that too. But holy hell Masters in DR2 is significantly harder than Masters in DR1. Even in a new car with no upgrades I was hitting top 15 in DR1. In DR2 I'm consistently in the last 10, usually between 23-27th. I like a challenge but even in a quick stage with no mistakes I'm not remotely competitive.

On checking the number 1 AI his times were within 4 seconds of the number 1 on the human leaderboard, whereas I was +18. That put the AI within the top 10 best human times on Xbox One.

[PJTierney 4,842]

1.15 made a 1% tweak to Rallycross AI in the rain, making them slightly easier.

 

Xbox is arguably the slowest of the 3 platforms. I should know, as I compete for high spots on those boards 🙂 

[VolusiaF5 8]

19 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

1.15 made a 1% tweak to Rallycross AI in the rain, making them slightly easier.

 

Xbox is arguably the slowest of the 3 platforms. I should know, as I compete for high spots on those boards 🙂 

Yea its easy to get top times if you keep repeating the same stage using one car and tweaking the setup and doing it over and over until you know it by memory and perfect every corner.

Doing that for 12 stages x 6 locations in 5 restarts or less per event is not possible.