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Yeah, they paid £70. You make it sound like they received a copy of Pong in return. Did they receive a non-functioning game? Or was there a FFB issue that would most probably be solved in a month or two?

I repeat: clueless brats. Clueless, impatient brats with no foresight.

And don't get me started on the 'No VR, No buy' f - Wits...

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30 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

Re the steam reviews: It looks to me like overall, a bunch of rally-heads went and bought DR2.0 expecting the perfect Second Coming. And when they didn't get that (despite everyone liking the handling), they went nuts with reviews that basically said 'do not buy'.

So the very people who were most looking forward to the game went and actively tanked its sales. Rather than giving the one and only freaking serious rally game there is, a bit of lee-way, and waiting a month or two for the inevitable patches before reviewing. Looks to me like a bunch of clueless brats to be honest.

 

 

What the hell ? It´s the peoples fault who complained because they got a broken product that it didn´t sell well (and a game that erased peoples Careers for example IS broken in my opinion) ? That negativity is ONLY on Codemasters themselves. They MUST have known that the Always-Online stuff will be a cause for negativity; which would have a negative impact on the sales; hence they NEVER mentioned it at all before release. And they STILL went through with it. To this day there is NO hint on the Steam Storepage for the game that the Career-Mode needs an Online Connection. Which is pretty shady in my opinion. It was Codemasters that gave the green light and said that the game was good enough for release.

I said this before: NOBODY was expecting perfection. Over-exaggeration isn´t making your argument any better. But calling people "clueless brats" for wanting a better product on release and in further iterations is as counter-productive for wanting finished and bug-free games on release as can be. It´s THIS exact mindset that is responsible that we have THAT much drivel and shady **** in the gaming-industry nowadays.

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'Broken product'

LOL

Also "wanting a better product on release" =/= immediately going on steam and trashing the game as 'broken' or otherwise a waste of money. What was that about 'over exaggeration'?

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11 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

'Broken product'

LOL

Also "wanting a better product on release" =/= immediately going on steam and trashing the game as 'broken' or otherwise a waste of money. What was that about 'over exaggeration'?

As I said: A game that erases peoples Careers IS broken in my opinion. It doesn´t happen that often anymore, but around the time of release it happened A LOT; I alone lost my progress 4 (!!) times; every time because of "a mismatch" between my Data and the Servers Data. I´m still hesitant to play the Career because this "mismatch" can always happen again. Something that has NEVER happened to me in ANY other game. I´m NOT talking about some Headlights not lining up correctly here.

Or that the Sound turns off suddenly during a Stage, which is especially bitter when you´re in one of the Online-Events. Because then the  chances for a "DNF" are pretty high, and you can´t restart these Events. And these Sound-cutoffs are still happening, even after the patch. I would call this "broken" as well.

 

The people who experienced these things have every right to complain about this in a Review. Same as people have every right to complain about the Online-Requirement.

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6 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

They have every right to be impatient and foolish brats, yes.

Ok, this discussion is at an end for me here. There are people who ARE able to discuss like an adult and at least TRY to understand where the other person is coming from, and then there are people who aren´t; or aren´t capable of doing that. You clearly are in Group 2.

 

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We are all in the same boat. It's up to each one of us to decide either to jump out or keep sailing it to good port.

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6 hours ago, Civarello said:

As I said: A game that erases peoples Careers IS broken in my opinion. It doesn´t happen that often anymore, but around the time of release it happened A LOT; I alone lost my progress 4 (!!) times; every time because of "a mismatch" between my Data and the Servers Data. I´m still hesitant to play the Career because this "mismatch" can always happen again. Something that has NEVER happened to me in ANY other game. I´m NOT talking about some Headlights not lining up correctly here.

Or that the Sound turns off suddenly during a Stage, which is especially bitter when you´re in one of the Online-Events. Because then the  chances for a "DNF" are pretty high, and you can´t restart these Events. And these Sound-cutoffs are still happening, even after the patch. I would call this "broken" as well.

The people who experienced these things have every right to complain about this in a Review. Same as people have every right to complain about the Online-Requirement.

sure, but there were many, many reviews and comments in the steam forum saying stuff like "worst game ever" "never giving codemasters any money ever again" and stuff like that. it was just ridiculous.

I realise I haven't had basically any of these kind of problems, but those kind of comments are not helpful at all, and just end up hurting the one studio making good games in this genre, not to mention the fact that they're medium-small and independent. if they are deterred from making these games, nobody will.

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Exactly. That's what I meant when I started my "the game is wonderful, stop complaining" thread, for which I was absolutely trashed on reddit (unlike here, where it actually turned into constructive discussion, which really says a lot about this community). It really makes me sad that people are so impatient nowadays and can't see things in perspective. Now the game's sales are low and I'm worried about the future of Dirt Rally or sim rally games in general. 😞

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3 hours ago, ianism said:

sure, but there were many, many reviews and comments in the steam forum saying stuff like "worst game ever" "never giving codemasters any money ever again" and stuff like that. it was just ridiculous.

I realise I haven't had basically any of these kind of problems, but those kind of comments are not helpful at all, and just end up hurting the one studio making good games in this genre, not to mention the fact that they're medium-small and independent. if they are deterred from making these games, nobody will.

I think we we were talking about the Reviews on Steam ? I know there are these kinds of threads; but those were NOT what this discussion was about. It was about wanting to set the blame that the game sold poorly on the people who were and still are rightfully dissatisfied with the state of the game and voiced this dissatisfaction in their reviews. It´s not the job of Reviews to hold back and see if things get fixed or wait until things get fixed. They´re there to help other players decide if they should buy the game. And if I personally think this is NOT the case at that moment its totally ok to write that. And THEN the players themselves decide if the things that are mentioned in those Reviews have the same kind of impact on themselves or if that person can live with these things.

How many people came out and said that they´re not wanting to buy the game because of the Online-Requirement; is that the fault of the critics as well ? Or Codemasters fault that they implemented this requirement in the first place ? Or the various bugs. The Reviews I saw  didn´t lie about these things. These bugs ARE actually in the game. And again, it´s TOTALLY ok to mention these things. That these people are getting called names because of that is ridiculous.

I repeat what I said: People with this kind of mindset are part of the reason why companies in this industry can get away with all those things that are going wrong at the moment.

And I said this before: People are NOT impatient. Many people are simply fed up with all the bullcrap that many publishers are pulling (not necessarily including Codemasters in this mind you). And again, Codemasters MUST have known that Dirt Rally 2.0 would be watched with a more careful eye after what happened with Dirt 4. All the negativity towards the game has reasons. It´s not because people are bored or want to see Codemasters fail (yes, I know that there ARE people who are trolls and ONLY want to stir up trouble; but those people are not who I´m talking about). I can only speak for myself, and I said this a couple of times before: I´m more on the critical side of Dirt Rally 2.0. But not because I want Codemasters to fail; infact I stated a couple of times that I wish them the best of luck and success. I criticize DR 2.0 because I want them to do BETTER next time. If Dirt Rally 2.0 was Codemasters first Racing and /or Rally-game, with a brandnew engine I would understand to a point (not agree, understand). But Codemasters is doing Racing-games for DECADES now, and is working with that same Engine since 2007 (Colin McRae Dirt). This is NOT some small developer who has to find its way around a new genre, engine and tools.

I simply see the biggest part of the blame why DR 2.0 didn´t perform well in terms of sales with Codemasters themselves. So many decisions that they MUST have known would cause negativity with people. And this is something that I don´t get when you make a game that is already part of a niche-genre where the audience is more enthusiastic anyway. I would guess you would want it to be as much smooth-sailing as possible. But to me it looks as if Codemasters saw some huge icebergs before leaving the port, but decided to sail straight towards them anyway. I don´t blame the iceberg then that the ship was damaged. 

And I´m not only talking about stuff like the bugs or the FFB. But I find something new that is missing from the predecessors almost every time I play. Today for example I realized there is no surface-percentage anymore; meaning a statistic that shows how much of the stage is Asphalt, Gravel, Snow, Ice etc. Now it only states Asphalt/Snow/Ice; but not in what kind of relation to one another. Like it was in Dirt Rally 1: Asphalt 60%; Snow 24%; Ice 16. I know these are only small things on their own. But all those small things add up after some time.

 

Edit: Urghs, now I have again written more than I actually wanted. Sorry for the wall of text. I just can get a bit carried away when it comes to consumer-rights and consumer-protection.

 

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Activision just brought out a $28 dollar hammer melee weapon for Cod and the internet is going crazy about it apart from the odd ones that think thats okay having now been used to getting ripped off. If gamers dont speak out that $28 dollar melee weapon becomes a $40 weapon next year. 

If the DIRT community never spoke out against anything wrong with the game it would never get fixed and Dirt Rally 3.0 would come out and have even worse FFB, More Bugs still require online connection and look even more blurry...basically given any dev a free pass on issues will never end in a good result for us.

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Yeah you guys are such justice warriors 'speaking out' about 'consumer rights'. We ought to thank you really. Such brave, selfless soldiers.

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The online-requirement is often brought as if you needed an internet connection to play the game, which you don't. You can play completely offline on freeplay. You only need an online connection to play My Team, which is the main part of the game and that's totally fine. I'd rather have this than a dull, disconnected career mode from the online multiplayer like in DR1 where you can cheat all you want both in credits and times and then magically appear to have all the cars in less than 1 hour. The way it's done feels like the whole game is more connected and tight, the way it should be and at the same time it's simplified compared to D4.

We live in 2019, not in 1999. If these keyboard warriors have internet to review-bomb a game, they also have internet to play the game. Many games nowadays require an internet connection to play, this is not Codemasters' new invention, many others have followed. GTA V is the most successful game in the history right now, while it has an SP campaign, there's a huge mode with missions as well on the GTA Online. The main action is on GTA Online and you don't see people crying there that they need an internet connection to play the other 70% of the content.

Review-bombing a game because of this "online requirement" argument is simply ******** I must say. I'd take a review-bomb due to the variety of bugs present at launch rather than an "online" requirement, which has been stated and re-stated before the game launched. It was not a surprise to anyone!

Sure we could have a single-player career as well, with different credits for single-player purpose. But that would basically lead to the same thing, you'd have to do the online career if you wanted to be competitive in the online modes.

I'd also like to state that Steam should fix the flaws regarding their review system. People can simply buy the game, review it without even playing for 2h, refund it and the review will still be there. Reviews should only be allowed for people who play more than the minimum time before it becomes unrefundable. You can repeat this process over and over again (and believe me there are people that have way too much free time on their hands).

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3 minutes ago, Riggs said:

The online-requirement is often brought as if you needed an internet connection to play the game, which you don't. You can play completely offline on freeplay. You only need an online connection to play My Team, which is the main part of the game and that's totally fine. I'd rather have this than a dull, disconnected career mode from the online multiplayer like in DR1 where you can cheat all you want both in credits and times and then magically appear to have all the cars in less than 1 hour. The way it's done feels like the whole game is more connected and tight, the way it should be and at the same time it's simplified compared to D4.

We live in 2019, not in 1999. If these keyboard warriors have internet to review-bomb a game, they also have internet to play the game. Many games nowadays require an internet connection to play, this is not Codemasters' new invention, many other have followed. GTA V is the most successful game in the history right now, while it has an SP campaign, there's a huge mode with missions as well on the GTA Online. The main action is on GTA Online and you don't see people crying there that they need an internet connection to play the other 70% of the content.

Review-bombing a game because of this "online requirement" argument is simply ******** I must say. I'd take a review-bomb due to the variety of bugs present at launch rather than an "online" requirement, which has been stated and re-stated before the game launched. It was not a surprise to anyone!

Sure we could have a single-player career as well, with different credits for single-player purpose. But that would basically lead to the same thing, you'd have to do the online career if you wanted to be competitive in the online modes.

While I agree with your views on this, especially regarding the disjoint feeling or DR1, I do need to add an objection from personal experience.

I live deep in rural Suffolk. Thankfully we have fairly decent electricity but our internet leaves alot to be desired. I have the best broadband that I can get but still it's not unusual for connection drop at least once an hour. More if it's too windy, sunny, rainy... it's a nightmare around here. So I do find myself often frustrated at being unable to play the career mode without the constant worry of losing connection halfway through a stunningly good stage. I would like to see the career mode moved to an offline experience, but I would prefer to have decent internet also so it's kinda a moot point. 

My area of Suffolk is certainly not in 2019 yet. Hell, we have traction engines running through the village most weekends.

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4 minutes ago, Sammoo said:

While I agree with your views on this, especially regarding the disjoint feeling or DR1, I do need to add an objection from personal experience.

I live deep in rural Suffolk. Thankfully we have fairly decent electricity but our internet leaves alot to be desired. I have the best broadband that I can get but still it's not unusual for connection drop at least once an hour. More if it's too windy, sunny, rainy... it's a nightmare around here. So I do find myself often frustrated at being unable to play the career mode without the constant worry of losing connection halfway through a stunningly good stage. I would like to see the career mode moved to an offline experience, but I would prefer to have decent internet also so it's kinda a moot point. 

My area of Suffolk is certainly not in 2019 yet. Hell, we have traction engines running through the village most weekends.

In this case, a different career mode in singleplayer would do the job. Credits wouldn't be the same used in Online though. Right now I think that's the only thing the game lacks, design-wise.

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14 minutes ago, Riggs said:

In this case, a different career mode in singleplayer would do the job. Credits wouldn't be the same used in Online though. Right now I think that's the only thing the game lacks, design-wise.

But as you mentioned before, with the rest of the world playing online it would be pretty much pointless....

Why did I ever move to the Victorian age- though it does beat London fairly comprehensively when comparing quality of life... and air... and grass... and wildlife... and sheep (there are millions around here. Maybe it's their fault the internet around here is so baaaaaaaad).

I'm not angry at CM for their decision to implement online career, I actually prefer this setup- when I get to play it. 

C'est le vie.

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I agree with the OP with the exception that DR1 was a massive financial success, I seem to recall that it didn't sell as well as expected.  Also disagree that it's God's physics, it's certainly not God's!  😛

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52 minutes ago, bn880 said:

I agree with the OP with the exception that DR1 was a massive financial success, I seem to recall that it didn't sell as well as expected.

AFAIR DR1 was a pure experiment, so it's sales were actually good considering all the uncertainty. Don't have any proof to back that up, though, and I would really like to know how DR1, D4 and DR2 turned out financially.

54 minutes ago, bn880 said:

Also disagree that it's God's physics, it's certainly not God's!  😛

Considering all the quirks in physics -- it must be god's, nature doesn't make such strange systems.

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3 hours ago, Riggs said:

The online-requirement is often brought as if you needed an internet connection to play the game, which you don't. You can play completely offline on freeplay. You only need an online connection to play My Team, which is the main part of the game and that's totally fine. I'd rather have this than a dull, disconnected career mode from the online multiplayer like in DR1 where you can cheat all you want both in credits and times and then magically appear to have all the cars in less than 1 hour. The way it's done feels like the whole game is more connected and tight, the way it should be and at the same time it's simplified compared to D4.

We live in 2019, not in 1999. If these keyboard warriors have internet to review-bomb a game, they also have internet to play the game. Many games nowadays require an internet connection to play, this is not Codemasters' new invention, many others have followed. GTA V is the most successful game in the history right now, while it has an SP campaign, there's a huge mode with missions as well on the GTA Online. The main action is on GTA Online and you don't see people crying there that they need an internet connection to play the other 70% of the content.

Review-bombing a game because of this "online requirement" argument is simply ******** I must say. I'd take a review-bomb due to the variety of bugs present at launch rather than an "online" requirement, which has been stated and re-stated before the game launched. It was not a surprise to anyone!

Sure we could have a single-player career as well, with different credits for single-player purpose. But that would basically lead to the same thing, you'd have to do the online career if you wanted to be competitive in the online modes.

I'd also like to state that Steam should fix the flaws regarding their review system. People can simply buy the game, review it without even playing for 2h, refund it and the review will still be there. Reviews should only be allowed for people who play more than the minimum time before it becomes unrefundable. You can repeat this process over and over again (and believe me there are people that have way too much free time on their hands).

I´m sorry, but you don´t seem to understand WHY people are upset about this (or don´t want to). Again, it´s NOT about that online-connection per sé. But people STILL make it sound as if that was the reason. And the way it should be ? It´s still peoples own preference if they want to feel "connected" or not. 

And, sorry again, the example with GTA Online was pretty.......self-defeating. Just a tip: The name gives it away: GTA ONLINE. It does take NOTHING away from the Single Player experience. GTA 5s Single Player will STILL be playable in 10 years. The whole of "My Team" in DR 2.0 likely won´t.........

And please, point me to the direction where Codemasters themselves announced that the Career Mode was Online-Only before release; it only came out because the PLAYERS wrote about it when they had access to the game those 4 days early. But you can´t expect every customer to read through forums and message boards. Hence why I said it´s shady that there is still no mentioning of that requirement on the Storepage for the game.

And the Career is STILL disconnected from the Online Events. The Online Events are a part of My Team, yes. But they´re NOT part of your actual Rally-Career or your Rally-X-Career ( I mean the Career specifically; not the whole My Team-thingy). So there is no difference between this and DR 1.

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1 hour ago, BloodCat said:

AFAIR DR1 was a pure experiment, so it's sales were actually good considering all the uncertainty. Don't have any proof to back that up, though, and I would really like to know how DR1, D4 and DR2 turned out financially.

Considering all the quirks in physics -- it must be god's, nature doesn't make such strange systems.

Yeah well, no, it either sold to expectations they had or not regardless.  (And I am not saying this is good or bad,  people make their own expectations and goal posts, and it's often their satisfaction in life that gets crushed due to it if they set them too high)

 

It's Codies physics. 😄

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You are the one who doesn't seem to make sense anymore. You should re-read what you've posted. And as a matter of fact, the online requirement represents a big slice of the bad reviews on steam.

14 hours ago, Civarello said:

I think we we were talking about the Reviews on Steam ? I know there are these kinds of threads; but those were NOT what this discussion was about. It was about wanting to set the blame that the game sold poorly on the people who were and still are rightfully dissatisfied with the state of the game and voiced this dissatisfaction in their reviews. It´s not the job of Reviews to hold back and see if things get fixed or wait until things get fixed. They´re there to help other players decide if they should buy the game. And if I personally think this is NOT the case at that moment its totally ok to write that. And THEN the players themselves decide if the things that are mentioned in those Reviews have the same kind of impact on themselves or if that person can live with these things.

How many people came out and said that they´re not wanting to buy the game because of the Online-Requirement; is that the fault of the critics as well ? Or Codemasters fault that they implemented this requirement in the first place ? Or the various bugs. The Reviews I saw  didn´t lie about these things. These bugs ARE actually in the game. And again, it´s TOTALLY ok to mention these things. That these people are getting called names because of that is ridiculous.

I repeat what I said: People with this kind of mindset are part of the reason why companies in this industry can get away with all those things that are going wrong at the moment.

And I said this before: People are NOT impatient. Many people are simply fed up with all the bullcrap that many publishers are pulling (not necessarily including Codemasters in this mind you). And again, Codemasters MUST have known that Dirt Rally 2.0 would be watched with a more careful eye after what happened with Dirt 4. All the negativity towards the game has reasons. It´s not because people are bored or want to see Codemasters fail (yes, I know that there ARE people who are trolls and ONLY want to stir up trouble; but those people are not who I´m talking about). I can only speak for myself, and I said this a couple of times before: I´m more on the critical side of Dirt Rally 2.0. But not because I want Codemasters to fail; infact I stated a couple of times that I wish them the best of luck and success. I criticize DR 2.0 because I want them to do BETTER next time. If Dirt Rally 2.0 was Codemasters first Racing and /or Rally-game, with a brandnew engine I would understand to a point (not agree, understand). But Codemasters is doing Racing-games for DECADES now, and is working with that same Engine since 2007 (Colin McRae Dirt). This is NOT some small developer who has to find its way around a new genre, engine and tools.

I simply see the biggest part of the blame why DR 2.0 didn´t perform well in terms of sales with Codemasters themselves. So many decisions that they MUST have known would cause negativity with people. And this is something that I don´t get when you make a game that is already part of a niche-genre where the audience is more enthusiastic anyway. I would guess you would want it to be as much smooth-sailing as possible. But to me it looks as if Codemasters saw some huge icebergs before leaving the port, but decided to sail straight towards them anyway. I don´t blame the iceberg then that the ship was damaged. 

And I´m not only talking about stuff like the bugs or the FFB. But I find something new that is missing from the predecessors almost every time I play. Today for example I realized there is no surface-percentage anymore; meaning a statistic that shows how much of the stage is Asphalt, Gravel, Snow, Ice etc. Now it only states Asphalt/Snow/Ice; but not in what kind of relation to one another. Like it was in Dirt Rally 1: Asphalt 60%; Snow 24%; Ice 16. I know these are only small things on their own. But all those small things add up after some time.

 

Edit: Urghs, now I have again written more than I actually wanted. Sorry for the wall of text. I just can get a bit carried away when it comes to consumer-rights and consumer-protection.

 

And the example of GTA is not self-defeating at all, it's just a fact. And like GTA, DiRT Rally 2.0 will be playable without an internet connection in 10 years through Freeplay. You simply don't have My Team available, which is part of the online mode, but nothing prevents CM from patching the game whenever they find it necessary to shut down the servers.

And I re-iterate: if the keyboard warriors have enough internet to download a game which is 50GB big in a couple hours and post a bad review about an online requirement, they also have enough internet to play this game, give or take. That does not excuse Codemasters for not including an offline only career mode, but the game is by no means restricted to online play only, as many people have said that in their reviews and posts in the early days. There needs to be some good sense in here.

I have already explained, Christina has already explained and a lot of people have already explained that the reason why the career is online is due to credits and times verification, because the career mode is part of a whole structure which is the online mode. You don't seem to get what's at stake here: this is a whole platform on which the eSports are going to stand on one day and where the current community events stand on. Therefore, it is necessary to have some kind of anti-cheat measures and this is the most sensible way to go and I support it 100%. People were complaining about cheaters in DR1, here's your solution and if it was me I would have done the same thing. Like I said, a separate career mode could've been designed to integrate the Single-Player part of the game, but that's about it and it would still be separated from the whole Online environment, so people would still have to unlock stuff in the online mode.

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People complain about Codies not doing anything to combat cheating, so Codies ensure nobody can cheat, people complain about Codies anti cheat measure.

 

They know that every decision they make will cause negativity with people, because people like to complain. People complained about cheating, for years Codies couldn't do anything about it because it was down to M$, Sony and Steam. Now Codies can and have done something about cheating, people complain about that.

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That's how it is, people will always complain, they don't need a reason. 

A week ago i was on the Raceroom forum, and people there complaining not having rain. A few moments later i moved to this forum and people were complaining they hate rain. :classic_laugh:

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I want to clarify before I say anything that I really, honestly do like Dirt Rally 2.0 a lot. This isn't me saying that the devs messed up, or that people shouldn't buy the game because of the online-only content.
My question is: why is it treated like an online-only career is an inevitable and necessary part of preventing cheating? It is if you make players build up their team before doing online challenges, but perhaps that itself is an unnecessary design decision - maybe the online challenges are better off being separate from the career! After all, the point of the challenges are to give you a chance to try a particularly difficult thing and see how you compare to other players, it's not really related to the career at all so why make it use the career mode's progress? If anything removing the progression from online challenges would make more sense than leaving it in, level playing fields are the realm of eSports and it's hard to convince people that you're a serious competitive game when someone who's put in the hours to have a better crew will be objectively better off than one without.
So then the only reason for having an online career mode would be to protect stage times so that those can go on leaderboards, and... well, when we have both a dedicated time trial mode and an online challenge mode, does having a leaderboard in the career mode really matter that much? Even in the best case scenario, online time submission increases the time it takes for someone to move on to the next stage and making your career mode feel slick and smooth is really, really good.
So I dunno. I think that an offline career would have been fine and it wouldn't have made the game worse, but it's also not the end of the world that it's there.

 

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On 3/28/2019 at 1:27 PM, Riggs said:

This is the best rally game we've had in decades.

From my point of view this is definitely not the best rally game.

There are way too much much bugs, so I put it back in shelf and I really regret that I bought the deluxe edition. I loved DR but this Dirt 4 mix with DR is not what I expected. Also there is no way forward plan from the devs so I think they will not be able to fix the bugs.

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