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Golden Days

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So, I just wanted to discuss, if people see fit, the change in overall attitudes that this game is evidence for.

This review...

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-02-21-dirt-rally-2-0-review-a-marked-improvement-on-a-modern-classic

... would have been unthinkable not so long ago. Say 10 years ago, when Eurogamer had Kristan Reed, a bloke who openly said he hated driving simulations, reviewing all racing games. Back then, there had been RBR, which was roundly, uniformly attacked and jeered at by the mainstream sites. And not a single, other true rally simulator, unless you counted Rally Championship which was gorgeous, but so primitive it was infantile.

I find it so wonderful that DR2.0 could be made at all, let alone rated as 'Essential' at a mainstream site. I think it is because of two groups of people - 1, the sim-heads who stuck with their passion and invested their hard-earned money into sims and gear, and 2, the game companies who stuck their necks out and took risks to bring simulations to the mainstream. We have to give Codemasters real credit here. Dirt Rally 1 was risky, as RBR had tanked badly. Yet the commercial reward for DR1 was a beautiful thing to behold. That game was far from perfect, the cars bounced around like oblong balloons etc. But the soul of sim racing - the unpredictability and the great romance of outcomes being determined by God's physics rather than any set path - this I believe was what finally, finally resonated with the mainstream.

I have to pinch myself to think that we are now looking at simulation physics as the mainstream norm, that DR2.0 will have a full year of updates and content, there will be another major rally game down the track which is sim-focused, and Dirt 5 in the future, which will have genuine simulation as its base. This was unthinkable 10 years ago after RBR came and crashed (commercially) like the Hindenburg.

Oh, I am speaking as a console player, and I know the PC indie driving sim scene has been thriving for many years. But when it comes to rally...?

 

 

Edited by Jake Cushing
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I hope they keep DiRT 5 at bay for undetermined time, considering the outcome of D4. The market has proved that Rally is what people want, with hardcore sim physics. There's no point in insisting on a game that's not well received, when people just want a rally sim and right now the Rally brand is what can offer that and it has lost the spin-off title.

We can argue about DR2.0's reception, but had it not been for the bugs and racenet instability there would barely be any contesting and the initial player reviews would be a lot more positive. This is a matter of looking beyond the obstacles and see the bigger picture and what's ahead.

DiRT Rally was responsible for relaunching and reliving the sim rally scene at a bigger scale and it attracted a whole new set of players to try the game and join the sport for the first time. DiRT Rally 2.0 aims to that continuity and let's not forget the availability and range of options we have now hardware-wise just makes everything better. Wheels and FFB are more accurate than ever before.

As to your topic's title: Golden days would be having a full 2000 WRC class in the game 😄

 

Edited by Riggs
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I too am grateful that Codemasters brought us a more serious Rally-game again.

 

I was a Sim-Driver for many years. But at one point I sold ALL my Sim-Racing-Equipment because I simply got bored by Circuit-Sims. And sadly, apart from Richard Burns Rally there wasn´t much to speak of when it comes to Rally. All those Dirt-games didn´t cut it for me personally.

And then Dirt Rally came out, and it was the reason why I bought a Steering Wheel again, an H-Shifter, a Handbrake etc. Just had to clear up a bit more space again, because my Flightsim-stuff (which i never gave up) took away way too much room over the years.

It´s of course fair to say that Codemasters didn´t simply come out with a brandnew Hardcore-Rally-game (well, or that´s precisely what they did; just one that was only developed ca. 30 % at that time). They knew it was risky. Hence why they chose Early Access on PC. To test the waters. To see if a more serious attempt at a Rally-game was still viable. Luckily the community on PC made it viable during Early Access. It was a real great time; having regular conversations with the devs and seeing how the game develops together.

 

Concerning the Rally-scene on PC: I think it never really went away on PC; thanks to RBR and its awesome modding-capabilities. But I would say that even that scene is bigger nowadays than it ever was. Also thanks to Dirt Rally, which re-lit the sparks in many Rally-Enthusiasts that then also went back to RBR again; next to Dirt Rally.

Edited by Civarello
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16 minutes ago, Riggs said:

I hope they keep DiRT 5 at bay for undetermined time, considering the outcome of D4. The market has proved that Rally is what people want, with hardcore sim physics. There's no point in insisting on a game that's not well received, when people just want a rally sim and right now the Rally brand is what can offer that and it has lost the spin-off title.

We can argue about DR2.0's reception, but had it not been for the bugs and racenet instability there would barely be any contesting and the initial player reviews would be a lot more positive. This is a matter of looking beyond the obstacles and see the bigger picture and what's ahead.

DiRT Rally was responsible for relaunching and reliving the sim rally scene at a bigger scale and it attracted a whole new set of players to try the game and join the sport for the first time. DiRT Rally 2.0 aims to that continuity and let's not forget the availability and range of options we have now hardware-wise just makes everything better. Wheels and FFB are more accurate than ever before.

As to your topic's title: Golden days would be having a full 2000 WRC class in the game 😄

 

I agree, After this Dirt needs put away for a good few years (3 or 4). People are burnt out on it after releasing them every year and a half. Codies need to do something different and not similar to the dreaded On Rush (how did anyone think that was a good idea at the studio) Grid was really good but i guess it never sold hence it was shelved. Maybe Codies need to try their own Open World Racer like Horizon although no way could they continue with the Ego engine if that was the case. Or even better would be a game like PGR for me the genre is crying out for a PGR style game. 

The reception has been chalk and cheese... Mainstream gaming media loved it but the public split 50/50 with alot of negativity on forums and socials which is the total opposite of how Dirt Rally was perceived. Monte Carlo is hopefully Codies getting on the right track as its sublime. Fix FFB & the Blurry Graphics i think the negativity will disappear and better word of mouth will increase sales. 

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Okay, let's ignore the reference to Dirt 5 for now. But has there been a change out there, that the mainstream now seek and expect simulation physics? Like the shift to choice and open world in other game genres?

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40 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

Okay, let's ignore the reference to Dirt 5 for now. But has there been a change out there, that the mainstream now seek and expect simulation physics? Like the shift to choice and open world in other game genres?

I don´t think so to be honest. I think the mainstream still vastly prefers its more laid-back Racers like Forza (be it the Main-Series or Horizon) and Gran Turismo. Just look at the sales-figures for Dirt Rally 2.0. Sadly they weren´t stellar in the UK. Or the sales-figures of Assetto Corsa compared to Gran Turismo and Forza. ESPECIALLY on consoles.

 

Edited by Civarello

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I had thought DR2.0 had actually performed well in sales - where did you find sales figures?

I take your point... perhaps there's just that many more people gaming nowadays, so formerly fringe genres can now get decent budgets.

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The bug uproar and early racenet issues had influence on early user reviews in steam and elsewhere and that affected sales. But I'm sure sales and reviews will recover in the following days and specially as bugs get ironed out. It's important that the team keep the advertising videos coming out as content rolls out.

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11 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

I had thought DR2.0 had actually performed well in sales - where did you find sales figures?

I take your point... perhaps there's just that many more people gaming nowadays, so formerly fringe genres can now get decent budgets.

Didnt sell at all here in the UK, Debut at 6 and out of the top 40 already. Dont know about elsewhere. Already vastly reduced on PSN yesterday to £35.99 

Edited by FLAW3D

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27 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

I had thought DR2.0 had actually performed well in sales - where did you find sales figures?

I take your point... perhaps there's just that many more people gaming nowadays, so formerly fringe genres can now get decent budgets.

Some time ago there were some chart-listings for DR 2.0. In the first week at number 5 or 6, but in the second already down in the 20s. And even worse when viewed individually: There DR 2.0 came up only in the higher 30s. And now, couple of weeks later DR 2.0 isn´t even in the top 40s anymore; all 3 platforms combined.

You can find the sales-figures here:

https://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.jsp?c=p/software/uk/latest/index_test.jsp&ct=110015

You can also change the weeks to see how the game fared since release.

 

Ah, FLAW3D was faster.

I said this before: Just because these sales-figures don´t look that good doesn´t mean Codemasters isn´t making money. I would guess the budget for the game wasn´t that high to begin with; which maybe was one reason why the game released the way it did and for the bare-bones-Version we got on release. So Codemasters wouldn´t need to sell a huge amount of copies to be in the clear from a financial standpoint. 

And if Codemasters keeps at it the game can still turn out to be a success in the long run.

Edited by Civarello

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For the sake of the game's continuity, I sure hope it does start to sell well as things are ironed out. It deserves it, the team deserves it and we deserve it. This is the best rally game we've had in decades.

Edited by Riggs
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17 minutes ago, Riggs said:

For the sake of the game's continuity, I sure hope it does start to sell well as things are ironed out. It deserves it, the team deserves it and we deserve it. This is the best rally game we've had in decades.

These days DLC tends to make more money than the game itself. I bought the deluxe pass last night but was amazed at how well priced the DLC was. Monte was around 2.50 and single cars 1.10 i think. Thats brilliant/perfect pricing for DLC AAA game as usually game devs/publishers will try and rip you right off. 

Monte is that good and it feels like much more effort went into it than the 6 tracks at launch so if the rest of the DLC tracks get the same amount of care/love/ i can see it being profitable no problem. Im actually really excited now for the DLC tracks although that will also be due to preferring them to the DR 2.0 launch tracks which for some reason im not falling in love with compared to the first game. 

Edited by FLAW3D

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F * * * .    I had thought the game opened really well and so had performed well overall.

God I deeply hope its sales pick up over the medium term.

I wonder whether a more jazzed-up career mode would have helped. But they only had so much resources. They should perhaps make the game more noob-friendly, especially with no dirt fish school, and not even any tool-tips on options!!

Edited by Jake Cushing
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37 minutes ago, Riggs said:

For the sake of the game's continuity, I sure hope it does start to sell well as things are ironed out. It deserves it, the team deserves it and we deserve it. This is the best rally game we've had in decades.

This is the best rally game we have had, period.

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Noob-friendly isnt the way to go. DiRT 4 took that path and it failed. If we want the community to grow healthy, it needs to stay hardcore and perhaps even go beyond the current level, content rollout that has been asked for and will sell extremely well (2000 WRC cars), the rest of the rallies and after that more stages for each rally. There's so much to be done and if it's properly done it will sell for a very long time. There's also the esports which will sooner or later start, leagues, etc.

Like the team said, this is just the begining.

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'Noob friendly' does not mean 'easier handling' or anything like that.

It means an accessible front-end. Tool tips, explanations (why did they simply do away with all the options descriptors, when they could have simply cut and paste them from Dirt 4?) and perhaps a bit of pizazz for the career mode. That type of thing.

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So all those whiners on Steam, posting negative reviews because of flaws that would be patched shortly, are killing the golden goose? Great outcome guys. I'm not a fan of steam reviews, it's always the same story. People can't see the wood for the trees.

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Just now, Jake Cushing said:

So all those whiners on Steam, posting negative reviews because of flaws that would be patched shortly, are killing the golden goose? Great outcome guys. I'm not a fan of steam reviews, it's always the same story. People can't see the wood for the trees.

You cannot blame people for the negativity on release or the weeks that have followed that purely lies on the devs doorstep. 

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9 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

'Noob friendly' does not mean 'easier handling' or anything like that.

It means an accessible front-end. Tool tips, explanations (why did they simply do away with all the options descriptors, when they could have simply cut and paste them from Dirt 4?) and perhaps a bit of pizazz for the career mode. That type of thing.

Totally agree on that. The descriptions and the pizazz is needed a lot. Some of its example could be taken from WRC's games developed by Evolution in the old PS2 or simply from WRC videos in youtube.

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8 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

You cannot blame people for the negativity on release or the weeks that have followed that purely lies on the devs doorstep. 

Yes you can i think. So many people, especially on steam and these forums complained about FFB like the game was unplayable. And it really isnt, with my current settings i´d say its not more pronounced than DR, but DR had too much car feel. a real car didnt give you that much feedback, your wheel doesnt vibrate if your in ABS etc. Christina has said many many times, on twitter, here and on steam forums that there is a FFB patch in the works. Still people are making threads that the game has been abandoned, everyone should refund. Really makes me sad. 

Just looking into steam reviews is horrible, people who praise the game for good, but give a negative review because always online career or they dont like the "Greedy" CM DLC Strategy (Dare they charge 3,50 for a location). Its just gotten popular to hate on games i guess.

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22 minutes ago, paint21 said:

Yes you can i think. So many people, especially on steam and these forums complained about FFB like the game was unplayable. And it really isnt, with my current settings i´d say its not more pronounced than DR, but DR had too much car feel. a real car didnt give you that much feedback, your wheel doesnt vibrate if your in ABS etc. Christina has said many many times, on twitter, here and on steam forums that there is a FFB patch in the works. Still people are making threads that the game has been abandoned, everyone should refund. Really makes me sad. 

Just looking into steam reviews is horrible, people who praise the game for good, but give a negative review because always online career or they dont like the "Greedy" CM DLC Strategy (Dare they charge 3,50 for a location). Its just gotten popular to hate on games i guess.

Has nothing to do with "hating" on the game. Being concerned about that Always-Online-requirement is a VALID point. I´ve read many reviews as well after release, but the vast majority of them were written constructively and had VALID criticisms in them. Criticising something is NOT, again, NOT hating.

To be honest I gave DR 2.0 a "Thumbs Down"-Review as well. First because of all the bugs, which is simply an absolute no-go in my opinion. THAT alone would be reason enough to grant a "Not Recommended" in my opinion. Second because it felt/feels unfinished; through all those missing tooltips and greyed out settings without explanation. And my biggest negative was the Online-requirement as well. Not because I have crappy Internet, but because I want to be sure I can still play the Career in a couple of years; and not having an expiry date written on it.

If there was a "mixed-rating" I could have given to DR 2.0 I would have done that. But I personally couldn´t say that I really recommended DR2.0 when I wrote that Review.

But I´m also willing to change that Review when the bugs are squashed; and /or the Online-requirement gets thrown out. Or at least a mode gets introduced where I can earn credits and car-upgrades offline as well.

But I agree with the DLCs: In my opinion 3,49 Euros is a very fair price for the individual Rallies. Kudos to Codemasters for that.

Edited by Civarello
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31 minutes ago, paint21 said:

Yes you can i think. So many people, especially on steam and these forums complained about FFB like the game was unplayable. And it really isnt, with my current settings i´d say its not more pronounced than DR, but DR had too much car feel. a real car didnt give you that much feedback, your wheel doesnt vibrate if your in ABS etc. Christina has said many many times, on twitter, here and on steam forums that there is a FFB patch in the works. Still people are making threads that the game has been abandoned, everyone should refund. Really makes me sad. 

Just looking into steam reviews is horrible, people who praise the game for good, but give a negative review because always online career or they dont like the "Greedy" CM DLC Strategy (Dare they charge 3,50 for a location). Its just gotten popular to hate on games i guess.

I played DR 2.0 and DR back to back last night and the FFB is 2.0 is shocking compared to the first game. At times its more akin to driving a speedboat with no feeling in the wheel at all. DR FFB gives you so much confidence and what you see on screen translates to the wheel. You just dont get that in 2.0 it's extremely poor it can be like driving on ice for the majority of time. I get more feeling from my Mini Cooper S Clubman 2018 and thats a new car with electric steering. Also way more feeling from my previous two cars Fiesta ST 2014 and Focus ST 2012 again both of them electric steering and more setup for ease of driving rather than feel. 

Maybe now after 4 weeks people are getting used to the FFB in 2.0 but lets not start to kid people on it's any good. Maybe a patch is in the works maybe it isnt maybe it will come in 3 months time or even 6 months. Right now though people are right to be negative towards it as imo its broke at launch. 

Edited by FLAW3D
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I personally have no problem with the FFB in fact I quite like it, to the point I'm worried that I won't like the changes here.

I'm also not experiencing any bugs or issues. I was fed up with the night and rain stages but that's been tweaked.

Love the DLC and the DLC plans, I'm having a blast with the game. It's extremely playable for me, loving it

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Re the steam reviews: It looks to me like overall, a bunch of rally-heads went and bought DR2.0 expecting the perfect Second Coming. And when they didn't get that (despite everyone liking the handling), they went nuts with reviews that basically said 'do not buy'.

So the very people who were most looking forward to the game went and actively tanked its sales. Rather than giving the one and only freaking serious rally game there is, a bit of lee-way, and waiting a month or two for the inevitable patches before reviewing. Looks to me like a bunch of clueless brats to be honest.

 

 

Edited by Jake Cushing
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9 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

Re the steam reviews: It looks to me like overall, a bunch of rally-heads went and bought DR2.0 expecting the perfect Second Coming. And when they didn't get that (despite everyone liking the handling), they went nuts with reviews that basically said 'do not buy'.

So the very people who were most looking forward to the game went and actively tanked its sales. Rather than giving the one and only freaking serious rally game there is, a bit of lee-way, and waiting a month or two for the inevitable patches before reviewing. Looks to me like a bunch of clueless brats to be honest.

 

 

If it were free you could call them "bunch of clueless brats" the fact is alot of people paid £70 for the deluxe edition and for that I think people have every right to call it out how they see fit. Thats quite alot of money to shell out and then have a game with so many issues the main one being FFB. Without them/negativity the game would never get better if it was just people like yourself commenting on how amazing everything is. 

Edited by FLAW3D
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