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Please let Jon Armstrong test out a couple of Spain stages in DiRT4!

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Because my word is probably not sufficient, and also on this forums I'm risking my head saying this:

DiRT4 tarmac physics are better than DiRT Rally 2.0's. Please please please try it out at the office and note the differences in grip.

I've tried out the following cars: Lancia Delta Integrale, Ford Escort Mk.2, Peugeot 208 R5 and I was seriously delighted by all of them. There is a lot more grip, and when you lose grip you actually lose time unlike in DiRT Rally 2.0. Slides are a bit harder to initiate and the traction is regained more quickly exactly like it looks in real life. obviously the rest of the locations in DiRT4 are still complete trash so ignore everything gravel-related in D4

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I haven't played Dirt 4, but I have played other racing simulators with realistic tarmac physics, such as Richard Burns Rally and rFactor 1 and 2. I have also driven in amateur rallies, at above traction limit speeds, in production AWD Impreza's. Also been to a few rallies and watch WRC on regular basis. I wholeheartedly agree with your observation. Tarmac physics in Spain, in DR2 are atrocious and far from reality. Cannot comprehend why it got released like that.

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I think merely a grip coefficient tweak can make the difference. Considering the quality of the Spanish tarmac and the sunny conditions in dry it just fails to convince.  The tarmac in Monte seems a lot more believable to me. Maybe it's the conditions but I also suspect the grip levels are different to Spain's.

Try a short, dry monte stage low down the mountain on softs and you can see what I mean. No slideyslidey = faster.

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I feel the same way.

When it comes to tarmac handling in Dirt series, I'd say it looks like this:

Dirt 4 Spain > Dirt Rally 2.0 Spain > Dirt Rally Germany

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I'm sure Jons played Dirt 4 and uhh... I don't know what I can say publicly outside of NDA, but I had higher hopes for the tarmac too. I don't know why it turned out so poor.

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hes been playing the best tarmac physics game about in his most recent video. hopefully thats the reason. :classic_tongue: i think its more along the lines of promoting though.

assetto corsa has the best realistic tarmac handling period. if you could get that with dirts gravel brilliance you would have the best car game period.

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This is the most ridiculously insulting thread title. As if JA hasn't played the living heck out of Dirt 4 already, and as if he hasn't tested through the tarmac physics in this game. The guy was a full time handling tester ffs

Not suggesting you shouldn't state your view if you think tarmac sucks or whatever, but this type of thread title is preposterous.

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2 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

This is the most ridiculously insulting thread title. As if JA hasn't played the living heck out of Dirt 4 already, and as if he hasn't tested through the tarmac physics in this game. The guy was a full time handling tester ffs

Not suggesting you shouldn't state your view if you think tarmac sucks or whatever, but this type of thread title is preposterous.

I could be a lot more insulting if I tried. Have you considered it's your interpretation that is preposterous?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Codies discarded DiRT4 the same way the community did, and looked at DR1 for inspiration. I can see it in almost every design decision, good and bad.

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9 hours ago, Pistro said:

I haven't played Dirt 4, but I have played other racing simulators with realistic tarmac physics, such as Richard Burns Rally and rFactor 1 and 2. I have also driven in amateur rallies, at above traction limit speeds, in production AWD Impreza's. Also been to a few rallies and watch WRC on regular basis. I wholeheartedly agree with your observation. Tarmac physics in Spain, in DR2 are atrocious and far from reality. Cannot comprehend why it got released like that.

RBR tarmac has always been considered to be very poor. Unless you talk about NGP? The difference in massive from vanilla to modded. 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, bogani said:

RBR tarmac has always been considered to be very poor. Unless you talk about NGP? The difference in massive from vanilla to modded. 

Even vanilla RBR has more realistic tarmac than Dirt Rally. The car feels planted, the grip is high, the loss of traction is sudden.

Here is how I see tarmac handling in rally games:

SLRE > RBR (vanilla) > Dirt Rally series

Taking into account other sims I've played, Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2 are above all competition when it comes to tarmac. PC2 rally cross in general feels so good, I would love to drive some rally stages with PC2 physics.

Edited by danielofifi
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I'm not sure if just a tweak on grip would do it, like increasing from 1 to 1.5 in a variable. I'm sure there's a lot more at play.

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I think it is certainly worth investigation in order to improve the Spain location. The other tarmac sections in the game seem alright really, not sure if the grip levels are different or it just looks more believable because of the conditions of those roads in combination with the gravel/winter tyres.

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Posted (edited)

I'm certainly up for tarmac improvements, it does need, but I wouldn't rely on DiRT4 anymore because to be honest DR2.0's tarmac physics are better than DiRT4's despite having a little bit of less grip. That's because in DiRT4 it feels like a boat.

I would investigate into F1 tarmac physics, since it's an in-house production, and I would use Evolution's staff knowledge on tarmac from DriveClub. In my opinion Codemasters have enough resources to make this work, not talking about money here.

The Evolution staff have been somewhat judged by the poor sales performance of OnRush but it's a team with plenty of experience on rally games (despite being on the arcade side, with WRC1-4 on PS2 + Rally Evolved), and DriveClub was overall an excellent driving game, with astonishing graphics on the PS4 (this is also a field where the DiRT Team could benefit from). I remember DriveClub's rain graphics were amazing. I'm sure the Evolution team would be a great help for DiRT Rally's 2.0 future development, both in content, bugfixing and tweaking.

For example: They could be focusing on improving the tarmac physics (hell of a job to do) and on improving rain and night conditions, by tweaking the lighting system. 

 

I bet the Evolution staff is allocated in the F1 game, otherwise they should be supporting the DiRT Team with these tasks and we'd have an overall so much better game. If we look closely, DiRT Rally 2.0 currently has these problems, which are of high priority:

- Rain weather problems, with low definition rain and almost null visibility specially on night.

- Tarmac is good enough, but could use some serious tweaking.

- Water animations could use an improvement, like rain hitting the windshield, wipers cleaning it and the water reacting to the car's movement. This also applies to whenever you hit a splash like in USA.

What better team to do this other than Evolution? The DiRT Team is good, in fact it's great, but we've also seen there's a lot of work to do and there seems to be some kind of shortage to fulfill those tasks in short-medium time, whereas the Evolution staff could provide temporary support (that's why Codemasters decided to keep them after OnRush, to provide support to the other studios).

Edited by Riggs
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To be honest, CM's developers read their users wishes and lot of D4 players wrote "there is too much grip on asphalt, it's unrealistic", "we want slides more" 😄  I wish more grip patterns for Spain sg. like how they did in case of Monte (i mean the the diffference between ice patch to dry asphalt).

BTW Sebastien Loeb Rally Evo has the best tarmac simulation in a rally game ever.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Riggs said:

I'm certainly up for tarmac improvements, it does need, but I wouldn't rely on DiRT4 anymore because to be honest DR2.0's tarmac physics are better than DiRT4's despite having a little bit of less grip. That's because in DiRT4 it feels like a boat.

I would investigate into F1 tarmac physics, since it's an in-house production, and I would use Evolution's staff knowledge on tarmac from DriveClub. In my opinion Codemasters have enough resources to make this work, not talking about money here.

The Evolution staff have been somewhat judged by the poor sales performance of OnRush but it's a team with plenty of experience on rally games (despite being on the arcade side, with WRC1-4 on PS2 + Rally Evolved), and DriveClub was overall an excellent driving game, with astonishing graphics on the PS4 (this is also a field where the DiRT Team could benefit from). I remember DriveClub's rain graphics were amazing. I'm sure the Evolution team would be a great help for DiRT Rally's 2.0 future development, both in content, bugfixing and tweaking.

For example: They could be focusing on improving the tarmac physics (hell of a job to do) and on improving rain and night conditions, by tweaking the lighting system. 

 

I bet the Evolution staff is allocated in the F1 game, otherwise they should be supporting the DiRT Team with these tasks and we'd have an overall so much better game. If we look closely, DiRT Rally 2.0 currently has these problems, which are of high priority:

- Rain weather problems, with low definition rain and almost null visibility specially on night.

- Tarmac is good enough, but could use some serious tweaking.

- Water animations could use an improvement, like rain hitting the windshield, wipers cleaning it and the water reacting to the car's movement. This also applies to whenever you hit a splash like in USA.

What better team to do this other than Evolution? The DiRT Team is good, in fact it's great, but we've also seen there's a lot of work to do and there seems to be some kind of shortage to fulfill those tasks in short-medium time, whereas the Evolution staff could provide temporary support (that's why Codemasters decided to keep them after OnRush, to provide support to the other studios).

Evo guys went to SMS did they not? Tbh while DC graphics were amazing the game itself was only above average and ran at 30fps with a pretty poor physics engine hence the amazing graphics. On Rush was ***** and Motorstorms while decent after the first title they didnt get any better infact worse and Sony dropped it. I fear they might ruin PCARS 3 tbh as it was Rushy that was brought in to make PCARS 3 "fun" His fun (DC & On Rush) is not exactly the same levels of fun Sim racers want. He'l have us in 6 man clubs doing donuts and "its not the winning that matters it's the taking part" 

Edited by FLAW3D
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, FLAW3D said:

Evo guys went to SMS did they not? Tbh while DC graphics were amazing the game itself was only above average and ran at 30fps hence the amazing graphics. On Rush was ***** and Motorstorms were decent. I fear they might ruin PCARS 3 tbh. 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-07-23-layoffs-onrush-developer-evolution-driveclub-director-rushy-let-go

"Sources said the feeling among remaining staff was the team would now work as a support studio for other Codemasters titles, or on less-risky projects."

When I mention Evolution Studios, I'm refering to the development team, not necessarily Rushy. You may have a great team, but if your head sucks, the product will suck. Their development team has much quality and it'd be a shot in the feet if Codemasters let them go.

Edited by Riggs
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1 hour ago, Riggs said:

I'm certainly up for tarmac improvements, it does need, but I wouldn't rely on DiRT4 anymore because to be honest DR2.0's tarmac physics are better than DiRT4's despite having a little bit of less grip. That's because in DiRT4 it feels like a boat.

Have you recently tried the physics in DiRT4 - Spain, Dry? Doesn't feel like a boat at all.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, chukonu said:

Have you recently tried the physics in DiRT4 - Spain, Dry? Doesn't feel like a boat at all.

Unfortunately I've played D4 for more hours than I would've liked to. I remember the physics very well, and I remember they were superior to DR1 but felt wrong. I've also set the 7th fastest time on the Spain eSports stages when D4 esports were rolling and I remember I had to driving incredibly unrealisticly with the Hyundai R5 to achieve such result.

Edited by Riggs

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2019 at 11:21 AM, Riggs said:

I'm not sure if just a tweak on grip would do it, like increasing from 1 to 1.5 in a variable. I'm sure there's a lot more at play.

One might even argue that there is even too much grip, as it is, in general. It's rather obvious in replays, especially in that tight hairpin, on one of the spanish stages. The main issue is not the grip level itself, but that the tires are not sticking as they should, but instead skid over the surface, even at below traction limit speeds.

If you don't believe me that there is too much grip in general watch those two videos simulatously, starting from the same point:

It's the same stage and the scale is pretty much 1:1. In the the top video the guy is driving an R5 car so he should be considerably slower than a world class rally driver in a WRC car, but instead he is actually quicker.

Edited by Pistro
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1 hour ago, Pistro said:

One might even argue that there is even too much grip, as it is, in general. It's rather obvious in replays, in that tight hairpin in one of the spanish stages. The main issue is not the grip level itself, but that the tires are not sticking as they should, but instead skid over the surface, even below traction limit speeds.

I think a part of it is that now in the game you don't lose momentum (and time) when losing grip, unlike in DiRT4 or irl.

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Posted (edited)

Dirt 4 lets you develop bad habits and lowers skill for Dirt Rally(1&2) such as allowing acceleration through 2 &3 corners when you should be breaking.

Edited by Snakeye5
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4 hours ago, Pistro said:

 

1:51 Dirt Rally 2.0 lost the grip, while the WRC turns without any slides.
All Codemasters rally games struggles with the same, tyres won't work like IRL, doesn't matter their temperatures - tarmac physics still not realistcs at all.

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17 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

hes been playing the best tarmac physics game about in his most recent video. hopefully thats the reason. :classic_tongue: i think its more along the lines of promoting though.

assetto corsa has the best realistic tarmac handling period. if you could get that with dirts gravel brilliance you would have the best car game period.

If Assetto Corsa has the best tarmac physics and FFB, then why is there any wheel vibration and bumps on tarmac? :classic_huh:

I thought the wheel doing anything at all was unrealistic?

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could be how he has his wheel set up. each brand is different. for eg dirt rally games thrustmaster wheels have very weak ffb compared to logitech wheels. so many blame dirt rally for the issues. so many variables . assetto corsa original game not modded is the best probably realistic tarmac experience. even if its not to your taste if dirt rally 2.0 had tarmac handling like that no one would moan or not many would.

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