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FFB things still to be fixed (Wheel)

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So FFB has seen some sensible improvements since launch, but specific issues still needs to be adressed:

1) Wheel traction: it is still not possible to feel wheel traction loss, so to catch a slide is too hard.

2) Jumps: Suspension feedback is not given for jumps which was very helpful and significantly increased immersion in DR1.

3) Road rumble: feels weird and has too much variation from non existent to obnoxious at the same suspension setting depending on the country the race is in. It has a weird monotony to it as well which feels - well... fake.

CM please keep up the work on FFB for a while yet - we are not yet in a place where anyone can be satisified.

I drive with a Fanatec CSW 2.5 and P1 Elite wheel.

 

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Posted (edited)

I mostly agree, but here are my thoughts (personal opinion) on the above:

1) Wheel traction: Understeer isn't represented particularly well, the wheel doesn't become slightly loose which is what other sims typically do to indicate the lose of friction. Rear wheels losing grip laterally is well represented through SAT (Self-aligning Torque), and given they aren't attached to the steering column that makes sense. Although it isn't perfect, and occasionally I understeer off the road without feeling a thing, but it's much improved now compared to before.

2) Not sure I agree entirely with this one. I can confirm that if you land off center, or with the front wheels not aligned to your direction of travel is does now provide forces as you would expect. Landing cocked off in Australia can rip the wheel from your hands if you're not holding on (and you have the forces at default 100% settings).

3) I haven't noticed monotony (too busy avoiding trees!) and it definitely varies depending on road surface and condition - but it's almost certainly 'fake' (I mean technically all simulated FFB is fake). Probably because the road surface conditions and degradation aren't physically modeled as objects with collision parameters, it seems like it's just different texture with friction variables. From an immersion perspective though it's 1000x better than before, but I completely agree that it is inconsistent between countries. I need to turn suspension down slightly in Australia where the bumps want to rip your arms off, but up in places like New England where it feels overly subdued.

I've never driven in the Forest of New England but I have driven through a lot of Australia's rally territory (in both WA and NSW), and they certainly look comparable with respect to overall roughness. I think we have more severe ruts due to washout here, and the roads can have some pretty wacky cambers and edges, but the actual surface isn't that much rough than New England looks to be.

 

 

 

Edited by JesseDeya
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Posted (edited)

@JesseDeya Thanks for your comments to my input - I will have to do some more trial driving to notice better the rear wheel sliding. I am puzzled about jumps. Playing DR1 first and then moving straight to DR2 there is to me a very clear loss of FFB suspension info from jumps. It is not that I expect a 1:1 repeat of DR1 FFB but this one feels particularly lacking. I suppose it is connected to suspension FFB setting somehow.

Edited by deadmeat2k

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, deadmeat2k said:

1) Wheel traction: it is still not possible to feel wheel traction loss, so to catch a slide is too hard

The wheel actually does loosen up, at least on gravel, if you really turn it hard to make the front wheels lose traction and start sliding. However, it's quite a subtle effect, and usually masked by other things like your rear wheels sliding too, in which case you'll feel the self-aligning torque pulling your wheel in the direction of the slide, overpowering the understeer effect. So I'd argue that the understeer effect is present, but maybe a bit too weak. It could do with looking at, but is lower priority imo.

On the other hand, there's not really any feedback to tell you when you've locked up the brakes, which is super important, especially on tarmac. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.

Quote

Playing DR1 first and then moving straight to DR2 there is to me a very clear loss of FFB suspension info from jumps.

In DR2 you won't really feel much if you land straight, which makes sense imo. It's when you land with the car turned left or right that you really feel it, and I believe it's the Self Aligning Torque very suddenly pulling the wheel to the direction the car is moving (which is not the same as the way it's pointing).

What are your FFB settings? Most people report the FFB being improved by setting Wheel Friction to a very low value, like 5–10, as otherwise it adds a dampening effect to all the feedback.

Then, have the Self Aligning Torque at whatever value works best for your wheel, such that it tells you what the car's doing, but isn't making you struggle to fight it.

The Suspension setting should just be set to simulate the level of surface feedback you like; for my Logitech G29 I have it set on 45 or so I think – again, enough to inform me, but not enough to constantly shake the wheel out of my hands.

Tyre Friction can be set around the same level as SAT or Suspension, it doesn't really matter – it's a very subtle effect that doesn't add much anyway.

Edited by afahoy
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Thnks @JesseDeya for the videos. The co-driver is much better than my (ingame). I've fired him/her in the meantime (in the audio menu). Now drive completely without - as you learn the routes better

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Posted (edited)

I'd like to have some more information when understeering/locking/spinning the front tires. It's way too subtle at the moment and most the times I don't feel it at all. However, I don't want it to be like the 'Understeer enhancement' effect they have in AC where the FFB pretty much disappear completely. I just want the wheel to lighten up slightly. 

The 'road feel' rumbling may be fake but at least it seems somewhat dynamic as you get less of it if you set your suspension soft compared to stiff. 

When it comes to FFB during landings it seems a bit inconsistent. Sometimes I get it, sometimes not. As been stated, you get more if you land at an angle. 

Running a T500RS with SAT at 40 and Suspension at 50. Everything else at zero. 

Edited by bogani

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Posted (edited)

I agree the new FFB effect feels like it's fake. However, there's no official statement or confirmation (at least that I know of) from Codies that the new effect doesn't come from the physics, so it's kind of speculation. I had set my suspension setting to 130 before the FFB update so at first I was hating it, especially because I tried it first at Australia, which has the most 'pronounced' road feeling, but after trying different settings I settled at around 45 and it's really growing on me, it's fine now. Just find a good balance between SAT and suspension. I'm using SAT 65 and suspension between 45 and 55, depending on the location. 

I also agree that there's no information through the wheel when locking up the brakes and there should be something in my view. Codies stated that the FFB is still a WIP so I'm excited to see what changes Codies will come up with in the near future :classic_happy:

Edited by richie
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In pure realism terms, I know Jon said that it's very hard to detect brake lock up in an R5 for example. It's easier to detect by the diff clatter sound you can hear rather than things felt through the wheel. 

Gt3 cars even have indicators on the dash to show the drivers they lock up. 

That said, we're not in the actual cars so some effects should def be a bit exaggerated to give us the info we need. 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah definitely locking a wheel IRL doesn't really generate steering feedback (that is usable).  You're listening (if you can), you're watching which end unloads if it's front.  You're checking if you're drifting to one side, and other wonderful things not including the steering (except that you may notice if you locked a front as your steering inputs don't match as tightly to what the front end is doing).  And it can be quite difficult to know for sure which one you've locked (left or right if you're going straight)!

 

I would prefer personally an on screen UI similar to AC to show a locked wheel rather than fake input on my steering (definitely turning the wheel on main axis is a no-no).  So if it's added to the FFB it should be a separate NEW slider. 

Edited by bn880
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Posted (edited)

I have done some more experimenting with FFB and the various stages. I think my issue no. 1 (OP) with no input felt from jumps has been related to a very low suspension setting. I was driving Australia, where the road rumble effect was insanely annoying, so I tuned down suspension FFB a lot. Now I have just driven in Poland where I could increase suspension FFB to 40. All of a sudden I do actually feel suspension feedback from jumps. So, I stand corrected (by myself). I think this still demonstrates some balancing issues with the FFB, since the settings have to be tuned in depending on country.

With my latest playthrough in Poland I used the following ingame settings:

SAT 45, WF 20, TF 30, SUS 40, COL 50, SL 100.

And the following key settings on the wheel base (Fanatec CSW 2.5): FF 100, DRI OFF, FOR 100, SPR 50, DPR 100, FEI 30.

 I will have to do even more testing with the updated settings on more stages and countries.

 

Edited by deadmeat2k
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Interesting observation about the jump effects being affected toned down so much by lower the suspension slider. Personally I like feeling the road so I have suspension much higher than you, so that makes sense. I think you're right, road noise needs to be turned down slightly in some countries (maybe just Australia?) and balanced between countries so that feel of launching and landing jumps is consistent regardless of road surface (which it would be, right?).

Can I ask why you have FEI at 030? I've always left it at the default 050 and haven't found it notchy or too intense (despite being on a solid rig). I wonder if that might be a good way to dial back the Australian bumps without losing the overall effects... some experimentation required!

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@deadmeat2k Try a different approach. Turn down FF on your wheel a little bit and increase in-game FFB settings. 

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Posted (edited)

@JesseDeya before my Fanatec wheel I had a Logitech G25 which has a quite crude and punchy FFB. So I have gotten used to a rather 'harsh' (in lack of a better word) FFB over a couple of years. Tuning down FEI to 30 just packs the right amount of punch to FFB to my taste. The feeling is simply to smooth going too much higher FEI values.

Edited by deadmeat2k

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@richie I have experimented with lower FF settings on the wheel, down to 70, but didn't seem to find a sweet spot and good balance with that. Fanatec recommends to stay with FF 100 and tune FFB in-game instead. Have you any specific good experiences in this regard which you can share? 🙂

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43 minutes ago, deadmeat2k said:

@richie I have experimented with lower FF settings on the wheel, down to 70, but didn't seem to find a sweet spot and good balance with that. Fanatec recommends to stay with FF 100 and tune FFB in-game instead. Have you any specific good experiences in this regard which you can share? 🙂

I'm on Xbox so I don't know if my experience is of any value for you. I find FF100 way too much. I'm using FF40, SHO70, FEI70 and in-game SAT 65, 45-55 suspension.

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Posted (edited)

does anybody think the same like me that the ffb feels very harsh? I would like to feel more soft movements on the wheel. I would like to understand why racing games always have completely own ffb's: I'm using a T150 and in the driver menue i can test different force feedback effects and i really like those effects and i'm asking myself why manufactures do not implement these ones, they are really good, in my opinion.

Edited by Makromatic

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Posted (edited)

@Makromatic are you on console or PC? How much have you played around with FFB settings ingame? It seems to me it is actually now quite possible to tune in the FFB pretty well to taste - also without feeling it kicks like a horse, if preferred.

Edited by deadmeat2k

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i have noticed recently that the FFB is feeling better, i have had to turn it down a few notches. 

Has there been a background improvement, FFB feels weightier?

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On 6/22/2019 at 3:51 AM, Amarios said:

FFB is still ****, G27

Can you elaborate on that? I would disagree...

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i have SAT and Suspension set to 150 but it still feels to weak for me. Does it still make sense to edit the actiondefine.xml after the ffb update?

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150 SAT feels too weak? I have mine at half that and it feels too strong at times. Do you lift brah?

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Posted (edited)

Since i tried different values in the xml definition file my ffb is wrecked. I already reverted changes in the xml file back to default and reloaded the profile, also let steam check my installation, but the ffb feels very weak now. Don't know what's messed up...:classic_wacko: does anybody know how to fix this?

Edited by Makromatic

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On 6/24/2019 at 4:09 PM, Makromatic said:

Since i tried different values in the xml definition file my ffb is wrecked. I already reverted changes in the xml file back to default and reloaded the profile, also let steam check my installation, but the ffb feels very weak now. Don't know what's messed up...:classic_wacko: does anybody know how to fix this?

Koji model koristis? (What model do you use?)

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