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No Assists vs. Assists [F1 2019]

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On 11/25/2019 at 4:16 PM, TheEmpireWasRight said:

Assists are currently slower than No Assists, but on 1 lap pace way too close to No Assists too.

- totally depends on skill level

This is especially problematic, if we take into account how easy it is to make mistakes with No Assists, epsecially in rainy conditions.

- agreed, but practise will make the none assist user faster

If two players, one with Assists and one with No Assists, race against each other, the Assisted player has a huge advantage over long racing distances.

- again, practise and skill level

Why?

Because assists make the car practically foolproof, it is almost impossible to spin, lose control or crash the car with Assists enabled, meanwhile Assists will slow you down only marginally to the point that it is much more comfortable to not even bother to try No Assists.

For example, Australia, my fastest No Assist laptime ever was a 1:19:6, with Medium TC and ABS enabled my fastest laptime was a 1:20:5 and with only Medium TC enabled it was a 1:20:2.

- looking at your times, you are a very skilled driver, so compairing your non assisted times to your assisted times is a bad example because you have a lot of track knowledge and experience. You have no trouble avoiding spins, know to get the apex etc, etc. You don't need 10 practise laps before you set a time. When doing TT my first laps are mostly the fastest and after that I start overdriving the car.

Difference between these 3 laptimes?

I had to sweat real hard to do a 1:19:6 with No Assists, on average i can do a 1:20:4 - 1:20:9 with No Assists if i run a more comfortable speed.

- that's the fun part, having to work to achieve something. Would you still be interested scoring these laptimes with two fingers up your nose and one hand on your back?

But here is the catch, my Assisted fastest laptimes were done in the very first tries, i did not even need to practice at all and was on the speed right away.

- same here

With Medium TC and ABS enabled i was easily able to consistently put the same laptimes over and over again with no effort, 1:20:5 - 1:20:9 on average.

Running only Medium TC without ABS was faster than Medium TC and ABS combined.

- makes sense

Assists should be slower by a much bigger margin as it makes the car too easy to control, else people who like to be comfortably fast will never make the switch to No Assists and those running No Assists will have to be literal robots to be as consistent as Assisted players.

- as stated before, depends totally on the skill level

Therein lies the biggest issue between Assists vs. No Assists.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/25/2019 at 5:53 PM, Greg76110 said:

Med TC is too fast on a dry track, it should be slower to see a real difference with no TC.

On wet track it works without problems.

 

Now why not have an option to apply "penalties" to players who use the assist.

Penalty for assits: Yes / ABS only / TC only / NO

It would be set to YES in the ranked lobbies, time trial and event.

Users would have the choice to apply in solo, unranked lobbies and leagues.

In this way everyone will play the game as he wishes.

And how do you see these "penalties"? Medium assists you have to be half a second faster per lap to beat your opponent? Full assists about a second per lap? Or substract that from your time. That could work in TT, but it will be very complicated online or carreer.

I guess we have to seek the solution in the ranked system (not the unranked). Moving up the ladder you will gradually loose the possibility to use assists. Same could be done in TT using the position on the leaderboard or a time mark. That way it is a reward and not a penalty (I hate penalties) The other benefit might be we loose the trashers further up the ladder. But, just an idea.

Edited by 1512marcel
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On 11/23/2019 at 12:30 AM, 1512marcel said:

How come the top of the leaderboards are crowed with none assist users. According to this post the top ranking players should all be using assists or am I missing something? But I agree to the fact that seperate lobbies will rule out the differences between assists and non assists. That seems more fair. We also seem to forget that only a small part of the community is a diehard racer and a far greater part is the casual driver, not investing as much time as the hardcore fan. And this game aimes for the casual player and is trying to please the hardcore fan at the same time as well. That's asking for trouble. You simply can't please both worlds if not every option is selectable. Once you accept that fact to me it becomes more fun.

Slowing down the assist user will make them loose interest in the game very soon as they will not invest enough time to become better or have the will to become better. For me there is still a challenge as I do not belong to the top 100. I'm surrounded by assist and non assist users in the leaderboards and my goal is to get better and therefore I invest. And it pays off. I invested a lot of time over the last months and I have beaten all my private league friends by over a second on every track. And they all use assists were I don't. My point; practice, practice a lot and you will be able to beat every assist user.

I agree to this. I don't have the time to practice for a whole day to reach the top 100 in the leaderboard but I will throw five hours in six at most. What frustrates me more is the lack of variety with people setups more rear wing than front wing for the sake of stability. If you were to try 6Front-4Rear wings with a quick race setup the front wing doesn't give anything to the car the front wing might as well not exist in the game. Regardless you should be able to be quick on time trial regardless of what wings you run front or rear with time & effort assists or no.  

Edited by Chromatic
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20 hours ago, LILLHELM said:

@BarryBL

When will there be a significant advantage for no assists driver?

it is already in 2019. you cant come even close with med tc to no tc. And with abs on you have to brake like 50 meters earlier.

the difference is already bigger then ever. If you dont feel the difference, then you are just not good enough without assists.

Edited by KiLLu12258
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the advantage without abs was right there with new game.
but was removed in later patches.

show me a video comparison with your 50 meters

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22 hours ago, LILLHELM said:

the advantage without abs was right there with new game.
but was removed in later patches.

show me a video comparison with your 50 meters

you should do that, as you complain about a thing which makes no sense.

the difference between assists and no assists is there and bigger then it was over the last years.

Edited by KiLLu12258
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On 11/28/2019 at 8:50 AM, KiLLu12258 said:

it is already in 2019. you cant come even close with med tc to no tc

That is true, Full TC and Med TC is definitely slower than No TC, but especially in the wets and also in the drys you will never spin and have almost perfect consistency with TC turned on.

 

If you use No TC, especially on the wheel, you lose traction and spin extremely fast and you will be able to play with the full range of the cars power, but you have to be a literal robot to be perfectly consistent.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 8:50 AM, KiLLu12258 said:

And with abs on you have to brake like 50 meters earlier.

This is a lie, ABS on makes almost no difference, only in the wets you have to brake around 10 - 20 meters earlier compared to No ABS, but in the drys it's almost the same braking distance as with No ABS, either way, if you use ABS you will never lock up.

 

With No ABS, especially on the wheel, you lock up extremely fast, but you get the full range of stopping power to play with, at the expense of having to be a literal robot to be perfectly consistent.

Edited by TheEmpireWasRight

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On 11/26/2019 at 10:00 PM, 1512marcel said:

Assists are currently slower than No Assists, but on 1 lap pace way too close to No Assists too.

- totally depends on skill level

From my testruns with Assists i found out that...

Full TC: 4-6 tenths slower per lap to No TC 

Med TC: 2-4 tenths slower per lap to No TC

ABS: 0-3 tenths slower per lap to No TC (in the wets the discrepancy increases to around 3-5 tenths) 

 

Funnily enough, in the top 100 spots of Time Trial Leaderboards we can see many people who use ABS and or Auto Gear, imo the top 1000 should not feature anyone with Assists enabled.

 

(I know it has been asked for since ages, but, Codemasters should give us the option to filter the Leaderboards in Pad/Wheel and Assists/No Assists, else there is no real comparison)

On 11/26/2019 at 10:00 PM, 1512marcel said:

This is especially problematic, if we take into account how easy it is to make mistakes with No Assists, epsecially in rainy conditions.

- agreed, but practise will make the none assist user faster

Of course, but it is much more difficult for the No Assist player to achieve, whereas using Assists is easy mode and doesn't even require any extensive practice.

On 11/26/2019 at 10:00 PM, 1512marcel said:

For example, Australia, my fastest No Assist laptime ever was a 1:19:6, with Medium TC and ABS enabled my fastest laptime was a 1:20:5 and with only Medium TC enabled it was a 1:20:2.

- looking at your times, you are a very skilled driver, so compairing your non assisted times to your assisted times is a bad example because you have a lot of track knowledge and experience. You have no trouble avoiding spins, know to get the apex etc, etc. You don't need 10 practise laps before you set a time. When doing TT my first laps are mostly the fastest and after that I start overdriving the car.

Average players do  1:22's - 1:25's around Melbourne, i can do 1:20's around that track with both: No Assists and or even with Assists enabled.

 

The big difference is, that i can drive the cars blindly when Assists are enabled and it feels like a Sunday Drive, No Sweat, whilst me driving with No Assists and doing these exact laptimes actually requires a lot more attention and focus, especially as something inconsequential as a little kerb or touching grass can make me bin the car into the wall, which is almost impossible to do with Assists enabled.

 

Melbourne has one corner section that is notorious to make cars spin if the kerbs are touched too aggressively, Sector 3 Turn 11 and Turn 12:

 

If the inside kerb of Turn 12 or the exit kerb that follows is touched with more than a quarter of car width, whilst No TC is enabled, the car will 100% spin or crash into the wall or gravel, so a robotic perfection is required to nail that corner over and over again.

 

If the same corner of Turn 12 was taken with Full TC, you can even use half a car width or more and you won't spin or crash, whilst with Med TC there is a very small chance of having a negative effect, difference is that you only lose a tenth or 2 at maximum compared to No TC but in contrary you don't have to sweat or be a literal robot to achieve perfect consistency.

 

Over a longer racing distance, this is a huge factor and makes Assisted driving more appealing, especially in wet conditions.

 

With Full TC and Med TC enabled i can run over grass, kerbs and gravel without the increased danger of spinning or crashing the car as easily, whilst ABS allows me to not bother having to be afraid of locking up at all, this results in a pitiful situation where i can literally slam the throttle and brake pedal like a on/off switch and could easily use the action buttons, such as the cross or circle on the Playstation as it was the case back in Gran Turismo 4 on the PS2, for throttle and brake inputs and it wouldn't make any huge difference, which is ridiculous in a racing game that is supposed to be the official representation of F1.

On 11/26/2019 at 10:00 PM, 1512marcel said:

Difference between these 3 laptimes?

I had to sweat real hard to do a 1:19:6 with No Assists, on average i can do a 1:20:4 - 1:20:9 with No Assists if i run a more comfortable speed.

- that's the fun part, having to work to achieve something. Would you still be interested scoring these laptimes with two fingers up your nose and one hand on your back?

Driving with Assists enabled and being able to be only 0 - 9 tenths slower per lap compared to No Assists, with the added benefit of doing a "Sunday Drive" without the issue of spinning or crashing or locking up and therefore having a much easier time to be perfectly consistent, is the definition of "scoring these laptimes with two fingers up your nose and one hand on your back", it's too easy.

 

If the difference between No Assists driving and Assisted driving was that Assists made us become at least 1 - 2,5 seconds slower per lap, then noone, who could easily drive with No Assists, would go and use Assists and rather put in some time to become better and more consistent drivers.

 

In my ex league all people could easily drive with No Assists, but they used Assists because it made them perfectly consistent and they did not lose too much time doing so, for F1 2019 they completely banned Assists in that league to prepare for E-Sports and now it is showing in the results:

 

Those who used Assists earlier are still able to do the same fast laps as before, but consistency is their weak spot.

 

Assists should be either at least 1 - 2,5 seconds slower per lap compared to No Assists, or penalties such as added weight and therefore more understeer or even more tyre wear would counter this issue of consistency and make No Assists more attractive.

 

At the moment the game is not very "E-Sports friendly", but then again many "E-Sports-Pros" drive in T-Cam which is also a Assist...

 

 

Edited by TheEmpireWasRight
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Assists are cheats pure and simple. Other games don't allow cheats online even installing anti cheat software to stop you and leader board cheaters are removed. 

Just look a that kid who was banned for LIFE from playing Fortnite because he out a video on YouTube showing him using an aim bot.

Aim bots is cheating, assists are cheating, no assists play by the real life rules. 

No reason why game can't have built in cheats to help beginners but no way should they be allowed online or leader boards ESPECIALLY in esports, supposedly the 'pinnacle' of online racing. 

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3 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Assists are cheats pure and simple. Other games don't allow cheats online even installing anti cheat software to stop you and leader board cheaters are removed. 

Just look a that kid who was banned for LIFE from playing Fortnite because he out a video on YouTube showing him using an aim bot.

Aim bots is cheating, assists are cheating, no assists play by the real life rules. 

No reason why game can't have built in cheats to help beginners but no way should they be allowed online or leader boards ESPECIALLY in esports, supposedly the 'pinnacle' of online racing. 

if assist were cheats
would be all players with assist on top of all leaderboards,but they are not,
assist are there to help people 
and every racing game has it

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1 hour ago, massa88 said:

if assist were cheats
would be all players with assist on top of all leaderboards,but they are not,
assist are there to help people 
and every racing game has it

Not quite true because the best drivers are still faster than people people with assists because they have great skills learned during many years of hard practice. The rest just cheat. If you want proof just look at all the world record times on YouTube and notice the view is T-Cam and the racing guide line is on (omg). Those 2 are the biggest cheats! 

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1 hour ago, massa88 said:

if assist were cheats
would be all players with assist on top of all leaderboards,but they are not

There are many assisted players in the top 1000 of every leaderboard as the following post stated...

7 hours ago, TheEmpireWasRight said:

Funnily enough, in the top 100 spots of Time Trial Leaderboards we can see many people who use ABS and or Auto Gear, imo the top 1000 should not feature anyone with Assists enabled.

 

1 hour ago, massa88 said:

assist are there to help people 
and every racing game has it

Indeed, i totally agree, Assists should only be there to help people who just started playing the game recently or have difficulties driving or don't have any time to practice, in these very specific cases people should have a easy time, no debating that, but they should also accept to be slower than No Assists, they should actively try to become better drivers eventually and strive for No Assists driving as in reality F1 has banned all Assists over a decade ago, imo the "official game" should represent this aspect of this sport accurately.

 

Sadly, in F1 2019, Assists are too close to No Assists; Assists, depending on what combination of Assists you are running, are only around 0 - 9 tenths per lap slower than No Assists, if Autobraking is deactivated of course, meaning: 

 

This is not enough!

 

Assists being 1 - 2,5 seconds slower per lap would be more appropriate and force us all to do our best.

 

In all seriousness:

-Rookies and even Scrubs who only started playing the game or don't have enough time to practice wouldn't bother if their Assists got nerfed (they'd probably have to readjust difficulty).

-The average players that do some fun leagues where every Assist is allowed wouldn't bother if their Assists got nerfed (they'd all be relatively close to each other anyways, unless someone in that group decides to run No Assists of course).

-Only those that use the Assists as "cheats" to compete and gain a massive advantage in consistency would complain if their Assists got nerfed (these type of people usually are highly skilled drivers who refuse to run No Assists even though they are easily able to do so).

 

Imo, it would be a win-win situation for all that want more realism, if No Assists became the popular way of driving.

 

#MakeF1GamesGreatAgain 

Edited by TheEmpireWasRight
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1 hour ago, TheEmpireWasRight said:

There are many assisted players in the top 1000 of every leaderboard as the following post stated...

 

Indeed, i totally agree, Assists should only be there to help people who just started playing the game recently or have difficulties driving or don't have any time to practice, in these very specific cases people should have a easy time, no debating that, but they should also accept to be slower than No Assists, they should actively try to become better drivers eventually and strive for No Assists driving as in reality F1 has banned all Assists over a decade ago, imo the "official game" should represent this aspect of this sport accurately.

 

Sadly, in F1 2019, Assists are too close to No Assists; Assists, depending on what combination of Assists you are running, are only around 0 - 9 tenths per lap slower than No Assists, if Autobraking is deactivated of course, meaning: 

 

This is not enough!

 

Assists being 1 - 2,5 seconds slower per lap would be more appropriate and force us all to do our best.

 

In all seriousness:

-Rookies and even Scrubs who only started playing the game or don't have enough time to practice wouldn't bother if their Assists got nerfed (they'd probably have to readjust difficulty).

-The average players that do some fun leagues where every Assist is allowed wouldn't bother if their Assists got nerfed (they'd all be relatively close to each other anyways, unless someone in that group decides to run No Assists of course).

-Only those that use the Assists as "cheats" to compete and gain a massive advantage in consistency would complain if their Assists got nerfed (these type of people usually are highly skilled drivers who refuse to run No Assists even though they are easily able to do so).

 

Imo, it would be a win-win situation for all that want more realism, if No Assists became the popular way of driving.

 

#MakeF1GamesGreatAgain 

That's great man!

Exactly my opinion!

Please Codemasters, think about it ...... so many people would be happy.

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Is there any news when no assist drivers will be rewarded more?

And using the driving aids must slow down the lap time more!

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Assists are in my opinion not cheats, they are literally what they are. They are available to everyone were cheats are not or not known to everyone. You can discuss however if you want assists allowed in online racing to everyone or that you should be able to create session were everyone has the same settings. In that way you rule out this discussion, because that’s just what it is. A misjudged feeling that someone is “cheating” because he feels more comfortable using a kind of aid and therefor has more fun. In my opinion created sessions should be equal and if you want to climb the ladder you need to become better (practice).

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They are not cheats!
But, the time advantage without ABS and without TC has to increase.
Assists need to be slowed down more.

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I don't see the problem. Pad users or bad drivers can still be competitive and not be lapped after a couple laps just because "assist should make you lose more time".

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When you are racing in a high level international league and find out at the end of the season the 4 guys who beat you, all chose to use a pad cause it’s faster and more consistent.......it’s very disappointing.  Then you realise some guys changed their wheels for pads during wet races too.....it’s a joke  

This never happens in GT Sport. 

Edited by Ferrethead81
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13 minutes ago, 1512marcel said:

So, you would have won if you would have changed to pad too? Why didn’t you?

because it is called simulation consistency, which codemasters does not have. more and more ridiculous when you give such answers.

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I raised this question because I’m under the impression that in some cases it’s more about winning and not about the issue. An issue were I simply can’t get my finger around because it depends on so many factors and isn’t that easily nailed. My personal opinion, nobody pulling my strings.

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1 hour ago, 1512marcel said:

I raised this question because I’m under the impression that in some cases it’s more about winning and not about the issue. An issue were I simply can get my finger around because it depends on so many factors and isn’t that easily nailed. My personal opinion, nobody pulling my strings.

 

it is clear that there is a conflict of interest between using the pad or the steering wheel. but your answer is completely wrong and out of place. obviously this arcade game will never go towards pure simulation. this is the right answer to give.

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