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F1 2019 - Skill Rating system broken [SG]

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12 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Hi All,

Just a reminder that patch 1.09, which is going live today, should have the above changes in. Please note that there is also a weighting value used that should confer an advantage to non-assisted players in ranking evaluations versus players with assists. This is not intended to be punitive for assisted players, but should help non-assisted players rank up a little quicker when winning, or drop less if losing to assisted players.

Please continue to give us feedback on your experience with the skill ranking once 1.09 is live and I will ensure that the info goes to the dev team.

Thanks!

Good news here @Hoo, at least for those players still trying to get the Pure Gold. Will this patch address the lvl 50 issue for those of us who have passed Bronze 49? I know it’s a different thread, but I’ve been keenly following this. Managed to just about squeeze in to Pure Gold in the end!

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59 minutes ago, ScreamLite said:

Good news here @Hoo, at least for those players still trying to get the Pure Gold. Will this patch address the lvl 50 issue for those of us who have passed Bronze 49? I know it’s a different thread, but I’ve been keenly following this. Managed to just about squeeze in to Pure Gold in the end!

I'm afraid not. That issue is back with the dev team to review.

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Patch 1.09 is great news for the players who are struggling to get higher rankings and skillpoints. I've already got the trophy the hard way. But I am glad CM has listened to its community. Great work CM! Race on! 

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3 hours ago, Hoo said:

Please note that there is also a weighting value used that should confer an advantage to non-assisted players in ranking evaluations versus players with assists. This is not intended to be punitive for assisted players, but should help non-assisted players rank up a little quicker when winning, or drop less if losing to assisted players.

Hi @Hoo

First... thanks for the update (and patch 1.09 for sure)!!!

Second, to benefit of the weight value for non-assists players, should all assists be disabled or as soon as we have at least 1 activated we are excluded ?!?!

 

Thanks again!

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21 minutes ago, TotalBeerFest said:

Hi @Hoo

First... thanks for the update (and patch 1.09 for sure)!!!

Second, to benefit of the weight value for non-assists players, should all assists be disabled or as soon as we have at least 1 activated we are excluded ?!?!

 

Thanks again!

The weighting is adjusted per assist, with different weightings per assist. Traction control has highest weighting. These values are small and intended to influence the skill ratings over many races, so won't make a significant difference in a single race. The various changes that we've made will should make things better for all players, so no need to rush to using no assists too early! I'd recommend just using your preferred settings for the time being and see how the re-balanced system works over the next week or two.

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@Hoo

Firstly thanks for keeping us updated and listening to our issues with the system.

After doing a few races I found that when I expected to lose points I didn't lose as much as before, which is great. However when I expected to gain points I gained a lot less than I expected to, the alterations that have been made, do the also effect gain as well as decrease? Of the races I've had in 1.09 that seems to be the case.

 

Also, when I lost the points it was because of a crash and a car sideways on the track ... again ... that hadn't been ghosted, any chance the devs to make it so cars involved in incidents are ghosted straight away? It happens way to often

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Good morning!This morning i was just curious to try the new patch 1.09. I have to say that its well balanced. In a race with 6 people i finished in 3rd place and gained 5 pts!! Then i did another race in a lobbie with 17 people and after being rammed..i finished in 8th place and i lost 35 points👌🏻. I have the safety rank A and constantly play with B or C ranks...

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@DarrenAH - The changes do also reduce the increases in rank, but the overall direction towards a player's actual rank should be clearer and should should get you to that rank in fewer races than it took before (despite the increases being smaller).

We are still looking at a bunch of other issues, so I'll let you all know once there is more info on these.

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2 minutes ago, Hoo said:

@DarrenAH - The changes do also reduce the increases in rank, but the overall direction towards a player's actual rank should be clearer and should should get you to that rank in fewer races than it took before (despite the increases being smaller).

We are still looking at a bunch of other issues, so I'll let you all know once there is more info on these.

No worries, thanks for the quick response

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hoo said:

@DarrenAH - The changes do also reduce the increases in rank, but the overall direction towards a player's actual rank should be clearer and should should get you to that rank in fewer races than it took before (despite the increases being smaller).

We are still looking at a bunch of other issues, so I'll let you all know once there is more info on these.

I forgot to add @Hoo that as you have decreased the points loss but also decreased the points gain it doesn't really fix the issue of the overall difference between the two. What I mean is that if before you could gain 10 points for a good finish but lose 50 for a bad one, changing that to gain 5 for a good finish but losing 25 for a bad one hasn't really done much.

It seems like a bad race means you lose less points, which looks like a good thing to the player... but if the amount of wins/good finishes needed to regain those points is the same as before then nothing has changed really

Do you see what I mean?

Edited by DarrenAH
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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, DarrenAH said:

I forgot to add @Hoo that as you have decreased the points loss but also decreased the points gain it doesn't really fix the issue of the overall difference between the two. What I mean is that if before you could gain 10 points for a good finish but lose 50 for a bad one, changing that to gain 5 for a good finish but losing 25 for a bad one hasn't really done much.

It seems like a bad race means you lose less points, which looks like a good thing to the player... but if the amount of wins/good finishes needed to regain those points is the same as before then nothing has changed really

Do you see what I mean?

@Hoo I totally agree with these words ...!

 

After doing some tests too, despite all your efforts, I was expecting to see my progression grow up faster, but that's not the case. After a dozen of races in a +/- 2 hours session, I finished with a differential of +5 ... at this rate, I have for a full year taking for granted that the players will continue to play.


Currently, the average of online players is around 50 each time I connect, last night it was down to 38... Having an "S" ranking, I find myself all the time with the same bunch of players, but unfortunately, they are always faster than me and it is out of the question that I am starting to cut corners or cause collisions to lower my rankings. I manage to get lucky on some races, but most of the time, I lose points... I drive only with traction control set to "Medium" and ERS to "Automatic".


As mentioned previously by other players, nothing has really changed ... Yes, I did not have any big points losses, but I do not progress either!

Here is a summary of some of my previous races: Spain (-2), Austria (-3), Canada (+4) !!!

 

2019-08-21_9-07-43_PM-hpwxfbga.thumb.png.ea74fec8dc7c2780b6761df2ae099e2f.png

Spanish.png

Austrian.png

Canada.png

Edited by TotalBeerFest

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We haven't just lowered the points for everyone, but have adjusted some other numbers that adjust player-to-player ratings to help move players in a better general direction. Please keep adding your feedback though.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hoo said:

We haven't just lowered the points for everyone, but have adjusted some other numbers that adjust player-to-player ratings to help move players in a better general direction. Please keep adding your feedback though.

So what you're saying is that from all the feedback in this thread so far you have decided to adjust the calculations so that less points are gained and lost ... which is half of what people were asking for.

However, in addition to that you have fine tuned the variables in that calculation to tweek the amount of points gained or lost in on the 1v1 basis. which at most would probably be a couple of points either way, making next to no difference ... also I can't remember anyone in this thread asking for anything like that.

It sounds like you are trying to make the system so that it represents a players skill on track, the changes you have made may allow players to maintain a certain points level/skill rating for a longer time, so you can say that it works in that regard, however the nature of the game doesn't allow that to truly represent a players racing skill due to the randomness and volatility of other racers and the fact that any knock can send you off the track. This is obviously not the case in other racing games, slight knocks and taps don't destroy your race like they can in F1.

I realise that racing against other people is part of the skill needed for the game but to see the actual racing skill of those players collision would need to be turned off completely.

 

The comments made in the OP still stand in my opinion, the system is still broken and what you have done hasn't fixed it so far, it has just made it harder and longer for people to rank up. There are suggestions in the OP in bold and I mostly agree with them all.

 

EDIT: Apologies if this post sounds a little harsh, I don't mean it be taken in that way, but I do stand by what I say in it. I realise that this is the first opportunity (patch) you have been able to even attempt to address some of this stuff and it is appreciated that you are trying to look into it. You have said you are looking to address further issues so I look forward to hearing more about that in the coming weeks.

Edited by DarrenAH
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Can confirm that after playing three races this evening and gaining 5/6 places a time that points system is shocking.

lobby of 12, from back of pack to 4th twice...couple points awarded, if this is how it is then that “pure gold” trophy will take an eternity! 

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3 hours ago, DarrenAH said:

So what you're saying is that from all the feedback in this thread so far you have decided to adjust the calculations so that less points are gained and lost ... which is half of what people were asking for.

However, in addition to that you have fine tuned the variables in that calculation to tweek the amount of points gained or lost in on the 1v1 basis. which at most would probably be a couple of points either way, making next to no difference ... also I can't remember anyone in this thread asking for anything like that.

Hi Darren,

I'm Luke, a designer who has been working on the improvements to this system. Just to elaborate a little on what @Hoo has been saying - one of the main things this update should do is correct the more extreme changes in skill rating that you see from anomalous races. If you are in a lobby of people of a similar skill rating, and you finish more or less where the system expects you to, the amount you gain or lose should be comparable to what you were seeing before. Maybe both gains and losses will be a bit smaller.

However, imagine a lobby where your skill rating is higher than the average. The system expects you to win the race, but you get into an incident at turn 1 and you finish down the field. This is an anomalous result, and prior to this patch a result like that could have wiped out all the gains you had made from the previous 10 normal races and then some. Now, that should no longer be the case. The anomalies will still hurt your rating, but the impact should be far less, which will allow you to continue trending upwards gradually overall, assuming you are performing well in normal races.

These changes are informed by the discussion in threads such as these, but also by the metrics that let us look at the bigger picture. We'll be looking at these over the coming days to see how well the impact of these changes match up to our predictions as we consider the next steps.

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1 hour ago, Britpoint said:

The anomalies will still hurt your rating, but the impact should be far less,

Out of interest when I’ve hit another player be it lack of concentration or a bunched up first corner the algorithm obviously knows I’m at fault, however from what I’ve seen if I’ve been the one shunted my skill points decrease.

wouldnt it be a case of implementing something that associates to the instigator of the offence to lose skill points as opposed to the current setup of the i fortune guy getting hit? 
 

I cut a corner, I’m penalised, I hit another I’m penalised, illegal manoeuvres I’m penalised......shunted by a third party, skill rating penalty, I fail to see how that would have been a good idea from the off? Unless ofcourse the skill involved to NOT get hit is at question but I guess that’s a whole other issue. 

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I did 1 race, player lobby of 10; ended in 4th place and lost 10 points. I did expect to at least earn a few points for ending in the top half, but to my suprise i lost 10 instead

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1 hour ago, Quickey said:

I did 1 race, player lobby of 10; ended in 4th place and lost 10 points. I did expect to at least earn a few points for ending in the top half, but to my suprise i lost 10 instead

I had really high hopes for this patch, but seeing this is the case the devs clearly have no idea what we're on about. I don't mind a trophy being difficult, but this is borderline impossible apart for the <1% that wins every 9 out of 10 races. I wonder if the devs have tried themselves to obtain this legit, I bet they didn't. If they say they're using the data to measure things I sure as hell hope they don't mean the obtained trophy percentage, cause many of them 'cheated' their way to it. Also this 'fix' still doesn't factor in the fact that in a few months from now there'll be hardly any people online and it'll be virtually impossible to gain enough points for this.

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1 hour ago, robinworldwide said:

I had really high hopes for this patch, but seeing this is the case the devs clearly have no idea what we're on about. I don't mind a trophy being difficult, but this is borderline impossible apart for the <1% that wins every 9 out of 10 races. I wonder if the devs have tried themselves to obtain this legit, I bet they didn't. If they say they're using the data to measure things I sure as hell hope they don't mean the obtained trophy percentage, cause many of them 'cheated' their way to it. Also this 'fix' still doesn't factor in the fact that in a few months from now there'll be hardly any people online and it'll be virtually impossible to gain enough points for this.

TBH I think they know what they're on about.

This achievement / Trophy is skill related, not something that can be attained by grinding, but by being better than the vast majority of players you race against. To improve your rank you've got to be better than your opponents - thats how they deterim your skill level which is logical.

 

They've fixed what the main issue was (major points loss for bad results)

 

And how have people "Cheated" to get gold?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, ochoco said:

 

TBH I think they know what they're on about.

This achievement / Trophy is skill related, not something that can be attained by grinding, but by being better than the vast majority of players you race against. To improve your rank you've got to be better than your opponents - thats how they deterim your skill level which is logical.

 

They've fixed what the main issue was (major points loss for bad results)

 

And how have people "Cheated" to get gold?

Just read back a few pages. And sure I get it's skill related, but if a 4th place in a 10 man lobby means an actual loss of points it's way disproportional imo. And again, how will people obtain this in a few months when you'll be happy to get a lobby of 5? If this trophy is just for the elite tier players that's fine too, they'll just have to accept that part of their fanbase is going to lose motivation and possibly (probably) will move on from their games. I will compliment them for responding in here and actually trying though, that's sth a lot of devs can learn from.

Edited by robinworldwide
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Quickey said:

I did 1 race, player lobby of 10; ended in 4th place and lost 10 points. I did expect to at least earn a few points for ending in the top half, but to my suprise i lost 10 instead

Chances are you were in a lobby of people that were all lower in skill ranking that you, another problem in my opinion.

Due to how the system works you gain points by beating higher ranked players than you, or in a lobby of all ranks lower than you then you must win in order to score some (if any) points

36 minutes ago, ochoco said:

They've fixed what the main issue was (major points loss for bad results)

Proportionate to the gain for a good result they have not fixed the issue at all, they have lowered it across the board which ultimately is the same as doing nothing

Edited by DarrenAH

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7 minutes ago, DarrenAH said:

Chances are you were in a lobby of people that were all lower in skill ranking that you, another problem in my opinion.

Due to how the system works you gain points by beating higher ranked players than you, or in a lobby of all ranks lower than you then you must win in order to score some (if any) points

Actually, it was a lobby with all B rank players with around the same skill level as me so i am curious how many points were gained/lost for the person who ended in 3rd place

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Hoo said:

We haven't just lowered the points for everyone, but have adjusted some other numbers that adjust player-to-player ratings to help move players in a better general direction. Please keep adding your feedback though.

I had responded to this before I went to work but I must not have hit the submit button, here is what I remember from what was in that post.

What you are saying is that not only have you lowered the points for loss and gain (meaning this is something you have done) but you have also adjusted some other things that will allow people to gain/lose an extra 1 or 2 points, maybe, depending on their assist settings ... OK, thanks??

I know this thread isn't the be-all and end-all of requests for changes or you may have wanted to add these assist related adjustments for a while now but to be honest I don't see how that would help in the ultimate quest to fix the more significant problems inherent in the skill rating system as it stands.

 

The OP's points are all still completely valid even after this patch. I realise that this is probably the first patch that you were able to submit any kind of changes at all to the system and probably one of the easiest ways was to alter the calculation done in the background that awards the points, but as stated earlier changing both gain and loss is the same as changing nothing at all.

 

You have said that you are looking into other issues and I hope that the some of the suggestions in the OP are topics of discussion at CM HQ when wanting to tackle these issues. Look forward to hearing about further changes in the coming weeks

Edited by DarrenAH
Didn't see my response as I had it set to order by votes not date sorry

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Britpoint said:

Hi Darren,

I'm Luke, a designer who has been working on the improvements to this system. Just to elaborate a little on what @Hoo has been saying - one of the main things this update should do is correct the more extreme changes in skill rating that you see from anomalous races. If you are in a lobby of people of a similar skill rating, and you finish more or less where the system expects you to, the amount you gain or lose should be comparable to what you were seeing before. Maybe both gains and losses will be a bit smaller.

However, imagine a lobby where your skill rating is higher than the average. The system expects you to win the race, but you get into an incident at turn 1 and you finish down the field. This is an anomalous result, and prior to this patch a result like that could have wiped out all the gains you had made from the previous 10 normal races and then some. Now, that should no longer be the case. The anomalies will still hurt your rating, but the impact should be far less, which will allow you to continue trending upwards gradually overall, assuming you are performing well in normal races.

These changes are informed by the discussion in threads such as these, but also by the metrics that let us look at the bigger picture. We'll be looking at these over the coming days to see how well the impact of these changes match up to our predictions as we consider the next steps.

Hi Luke, thankyou for the response.

I'm sure you have seen the lobby sizes currently, I'm not sure on Playstation, but on Xbox at peak European time .. say Saturday afternoon .. I have seen, at most, 200 people searching in ranked lobbies but the majority of the time it is lower than 100. Of those, from what I have seen across the safety ratings, I have been from S down to C, the majority of players are in safety rating C.

To gain any decent points it seems like the system is set up to need big lobbies. Coming fourth in a lobby of 12 people around your skill rating gains more points than winning in a lobby of four people rated higher than you - and if you don't win you will lose points even though they are rated higher.

To this end it means that you need to really be in a lower safety rating to have a chance at good points gain, which then means you have a larger chance of "anomalous results". Even though you may not lose as many points due to these types of results, because of the decrease in points gained it can still wipe out all the gains made from the previous 10 normal races ... gaining 10 points in 1.08 is the same as gaining 5 points in 1.09 if the anomalous result means you lose 50 points in 1.08 but only 25 points in 1.09. I'm hoping you see where I'm coming from, it's less but it's still the same.

EDIT: If this is what you were going for then that's fine but if you are lowing the point gained and lost then I would think i makes sense to lower the amount of points need to reach the different ratings levels. Gold shouldn't be 2000 points in the new system

 

I know you probably won't answer this for a number of internal reasons and reasons of if you did there would be no end to people asking about it but I'll try anyway but feel no obligation to respond as I don't expect you too: Are any of the suggestions posted in the OP of this thread topics of discussion at CM HQ as possible avenues to explore?

 

Lastly, and slightly of topic of the reply to your post, I have asked in the thread previously but will ask you directly if that is OK ... you must realise that the longevity of these yearly releases is limited, the multiplayer especially. As I say there is, at max 200ish people online (on Xbox) searching for ranked races and there is pretty much no point in racing in a lobby of 5 people, any gains will be tiny and losses are a lot more likely, and from what I have seen in a two person lobby the winner might not gain even a single point where as the loser will probably drop a few or more. So how do you see this being a viable system in the future? In a years time when the new game is out will anyone be able to rank up at all in F1 2019?

Edited by DarrenAH
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37 minutes ago, Quickey said:

Actually, it was a lobby with all B rank players with around the same skill level as me so i am curious how many points were gained/lost for the person who ended in 3rd place

The B rank is your safety rating and has nothing to do with the skill ranking system, its mostly just used for matchmaking from what I have seen.

It may have looked like they are the same skill rating (silver 1 or silver 2, etc.) however if you are at 1650 points as silver 2 they might have been at 1450 but still show as silver 2

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