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Nonsense AI R&D developments

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I am season 2 at Ferrari. First season I was in Haas. I developed Haas car to nearly as good as Red bull in 1 season but I couldn’t catch them. It was okey when I was in Haas. When season 2, I transferred to Ferrari. After some races, Racing point best car in the field(weber was in the racing point, I think this is the reason that they developed their car veeerry fast). Alfa Romeo passed me in 5 or 7 races. Red bull down 6th. It is soooo unrealistic. Okey they should upgrade they car, sometimes they could catch the front cars. BUT half season they can’t be the best car. In real life for 4 years Mercedes is the best car. Okey it’s boring but this is the fact. You can’t be the best car in a half season. I can’t be the only one who gets this nonsense.

Sorry for bed English but I think I could explained myself, thank you.

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Currently R&D is just insanely quick. Car development is a lengthy and difficult process and now it just doesn't feel that way. Firstly, car performance and the order of teams change too much throughout a season. A mediocre car shoudn't be able to be among the top teams afer half a season. Secondly, you can have a fully uprgaded car probably before the end of season 3. What's left to do then? There's a 10 season career and after 1/3 of the distance you have nothing to invest your points and there won't be any serious performance changes among teams after 4-5 seasons as every team would have a fully upgraded car. The only thing that could mix things up is a regulation change.

I would love to have an option to slow R&D down by cutting the amount of points received to 50% and 25%. Obviously it should affect the AI as well. Players could keep things as they are now if they like it, but players who plan a longer career and don't like so quick car evolution and team performance changes could make it slower.

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Yes, it is too quick. It is destroying the reality. After 2 season, I don’t enjoy like before. So I decided to open a new season. But this isn’t a solution. I hope CM planning to fix this with a patch.

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It depends on how you start career. I started a career with Mercedes and R&D is not going that fast as in the smaller teams. When I started with Toro Rosso I immediately got bonus perks which make R&D way faster to develop from the start of the season. In the Mercedes I have no perks from the start, got some after Baku now but I'm now in Canada and have only done a lot of R&D in durability but almost none on the other parts. Ferrari and RB are not developing as well or are also investing in durability. The midfield is creeping closer but the development seems to be rather realistic.

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Posted (edited)

Okey, I get the point. But It shouldn't change. Because I want very realistic career mode. Maybe It can be optional. I don't want the game help me. If I am in a bad team I shouldn't be the competitor of the front in a season or half season even. If I do some great races compare the my car and team, then I can deserve some bonus. Not because the game want to help me.

Edited by dionysos018
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On 7/20/2019 at 5:40 AM, dionysos018 said:

I am season 2 at Ferrari. First season I was in Haas. I developed Haas car to nearly as good as Red bull in 1 season but I couldn’t catch them. It was okey when I was in Haas. When season 2, I transferred to Ferrari. After some races, Racing point best car in the field(weber was in the racing point, I think this is the reason that they developed their car veeerry fast). Alfa Romeo passed me in 5 or 7 races. Red bull down 6th. It is soooo unrealistic. Okey they should upgrade they car, sometimes they could catch the front cars. BUT half season they can’t be the best car. In real life for 4 years Mercedes is the best car. Okey it’s boring but this is the fact. You can’t be the best car in a half season. I can’t be the only one who gets this nonsense.

Sorry for bed English but I think I could explained myself, thank you.

First of all my man, don't ever apologize for your English skills. You are already doing a great thing speaking a language that is not yours and only for that you deserve respect. 

Moving on, I kinda agree with you in general, I would like things to be a little bit slower for R&D but at the same time, look at mclaren..last season they were dead last, at times worse than Williams, this year they are the 4th team on the grid, consistently! 

Think about their R&D chart... :) 

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It's unrealistic but it definitely shakes up the field in more interesting ways than real life does.

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I wish it would slow down a bit, both for player and AI. At the moment its a bit silly. 

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Well last year people complained that R&D was too easy which is basically how we got here.

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the problem I see is, that engine customer teams like Racing Point (Mercedes) or Haas (Ferrari) to name a few, are able to upgrade their engines.

That makes no sense, that at one point customer teams have a better engine then the works team.

The R&D Tree should be only Aero, Chassis and Reliability.

Engine should be updated only by codemaster patch (like 1.05 performance update) 

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I don't mind the engine upgrades. The customer teams can't upgrade beyond the max of the engine they are a customer of.

Also ERS and Fuel Upgrades can be quite helpful and it would suck if that aspect of upgrading was lost.

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2 minutes ago, Zachrulez said:

I don't mind the engine upgrades. The customer teams can't upgrade beyond the max of the engine they are a customer of.

Also ERS and Fuel Upgrades can be quite helpful and it would suck if that aspect of upgrading was lost.

They can though.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Zachrulez said:

I don't mind the engine upgrades. The customer teams can't upgrade beyond the max of the engine they are a customer of.

Also ERS and Fuel Upgrades can be quite helpful and it would suck if that aspect of upgrading was lost.

of course they cant upgrade beyond the max, but you should read carefully.

i said at one point they have the better engine.

for example if you start your career in a customer team like Haas and you spent all your points in the engine developement, you will be always ahead of Ferrari, until they start their engine developement.

And that is the problem.

I would say if you suggest to develope your engine, there should be a pop up information like "be aware your oppenents with same engine, gets also an update"

Edited by 2Pacalypse

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, 2Pacalypse said:

of course they cant upgrade beyond the max, but you should read carefully.

i said at one point they have the better engine.

for example if you start your career in a customer team like Haas and you spent all your points in the engine developement, you will be always ahead of Ferrari, until they start their engine developement.

And that is the problem.

I would say if you suggest to develope your engine, there should be a pop up information like "be aware your oppenents with same engine, gets also an update"

It's a problem if you care about realism. I do to a point... but I think the game would be less fun if you couldn't upgrade the engine.

Edited by Zachrulez
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What disturbs me is how much a team can improve IN the season. I wouldn't mind if the team with the slowest car becomes the fastest in between seasons, that's strange but more likely to happen in real life. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2019 at 2:40 PM, dionysos018 said:

I am season 2 at Ferrari. First season I was in Haas. I developed Haas car to nearly as good as Red bull in 1 season but I couldn’t catch them. It was okey when I was in Haas. When season 2, I transferred to Ferrari. After some races, Racing point best car in the field(weber was in the racing point, I think this is the reason that they developed their car veeerry fast). Alfa Romeo passed me in 5 or 7 races. Red bull down 6th. It is soooo unrealistic. Okey they should upgrade they car, sometimes they could catch the front cars. BUT half season they can’t be the best car. In real life for 4 years Mercedes is the best car. Okey it’s boring but this is the fact. You can’t be the best car in a half season. I can’t be the only one who gets this nonsense.

Sorry for bed English but I think I could explained myself, thank you.

It's not that it's fast. The problem is that it's random and the AI follows different rules from the player. Nothing shows that more than the tendency for tier 1 teams to not do anything and drop back into the midfield, especially Mercedes and Red Bull. I have no idea why this is happening and what determines the rate at which they develop (or, rather, the random chance of them developing one or more parts because this is what seems to be going on right now), but it's messed up.

At least it makes for a challenge, but just like with them using different physics and therefore having better grip, traction and tyre wear than the player (with their precalculated lines being the only thing that stops them from maximizing that as even on 110% they're driving below the potential of the simplified physics), it's not a fair challenge. It's little more than a lazy cheat, and it shouldn't be happening.

Edited by Coffer

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42 minutes ago, Coffer said:

It's not that it's fast. The problem is that it's random and the AI follows different rules from the player.

That's not entirely true. The AI teams do the upgrades that are available in the R&D tree. It just seems that this year, they also get a lot of R&D points to develop, which I actually like. I just think that the impact of each individual upgrade should probably be cut by 50%.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Andrew210227 said:

That's not entirely true. The AI teams do the upgrades that are available in the R&D tree. It just seems that this year, they also get a lot of R&D points to develop, which I actually like. I just think that the impact of each individual upgrade should probably be cut by 50%.

That's my point. They have the same upgrades, of course they do, but the way they get the points seems to be completely different from the player. It's like they get random values (possibly determined by something? but if so, by what? the driver stats?) every weekend, between a lower limit and an upper limit, with the upper limit being much higher than what the player can get through absolute perfect maximization of every weekend (all but one programme perfected, at least 10 laps in every session, no warnings or penalties, plus maybe bonuses from objectives). Someone pointed out on reddit that in their run Haas, Force India and Toro Rosso had all the upgrades (barring one in Haas's case, as he moved to them and could see for himself) by S3 of Australia in their run, which is a bit too much for my liking.

What's your experience been like with Ferrari in particular? I'm thinking about Tom97's playthrough as he has #1 status in the team and he has fallen behind massively, whereas in all other runs where Vettel (with his very high stats) remained the #1 driver Ferrari stayed near or at the top.

Edited by Coffer

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4 minutes ago, Coffer said:

That's my point. They have the same upgrades, of course they do, but the way they get the points seems to be completely different from the player. It's like they get random values (possibly determined by something? but if so, by what? the driver stats?) every weekend, between a lower limit and an upper limit, with the upper limit being much higher than what the player can get through absolute perfect maximization of every weekend (all but one programme perfected, at least 10 laps in every session, no warnings or penalties, plus maybe bonuses from objectives).

Something I did notice is that, when I switched teams after season 1 from Alfa to McLaren (or any other team for that matter, I tried several options), I always got an insane amount of starting R&D points with my new team: 5000 in total. That's well more than double the amount that I would've gotten as an end-of-season bonus had I stayed at my old team. Could this have something to do with the AI developing particularly quickly in season 2: maybe they all start with 5000 whereas you don't?

8 minutes ago, Coffer said:

 What's your experience been like with Ferrari in particular? I'm thinking about Tom97's playthrough as he has #1 status in the team and he has fallen behind massively, whereas in all other runs where Vettel (with his very high stats) remained the #1 driver Ferrari stayed near or at the top.

Don't really know what you mean by this?

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7 minutes ago, Andrew210227 said:

Something I did notice is that, when I switched teams after season 1 from Alfa to McLaren (or any other team for that matter, I tried several options), I always got an insane amount of starting R&D points with my new team: 5000 in total. That's well more than double the amount that I would've gotten as an end-of-season bonus had I stayed at my old team. Could this have something to do with the AI developing particularly quickly in season 2: maybe they all start with 5000 whereas you don't?

5000? That's colossal. I wonder if the driver transfers are influencing this then, with teams that go through multiple driver transfers being more likely to surge to the top? With the game being as obscenely difficult to mod as it is, it would be nice if CM told us some technical details about factors that are involved in some of these mechanics, like how many points the AI gets every weekend, or things like the 5000 points you mentioned.

 

9 minutes ago, Andrew210227 said:

Don't really know what you mean by this?

Again, I'm curious about the factors that go into the rate at which the AI develops, and I'm wondering if the driver skill for every team other than the player's is a factor. As Vettel has the highest stats, Ferrari should normally surge to the top, but now that you mentioned the other bit, I'm no longer so sure.

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1 minute ago, Coffer said:

5000? That's colossal. I wonder if the driver transfers are influencing this then, with teams that go through multiple driver transfers being more likely to surge to the top? With the game being as obscenely difficult to mod as it is, it would be nice if CM told us some technical details about factors that are involved in some of these mechanics, like how many points the AI gets every weekend, or things like the 5000 points you mentioned.

Ooh, that's a great theory. And yeah, those 5.000 points are massive, particularly because the AI teams invest quite a bit in the department efficiency anyway, making upgrades cheaper. I decided to invest some in the efficiency/failure chance upgrades, and leave the rest for durability throughout the season because I could literally upgrade my car immediately from 5th best to first if I wanted.

Also, sidenote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already but you can actually choose your teammate through a 'workaround' when you switch teams by choosing first or second driver status.

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1 minute ago, Andrew210227 said:

Ooh, that's a great theory. And yeah, those 5.000 points are massive, particularly because the AI teams invest quite a bit in the department efficiency anyway, making upgrades cheaper. I decided to invest some in the efficiency/failure chance upgrades, and leave the rest for durability throughout the season because I could literally upgrade my car immediately from 5th best to first if I wanted.

That's the thing though - it's a theory. It's a potential factor that could come into play, but we have no clue to what extent it applies (if at all) or if there's anything else that comes into play, like what I said with the AI driver skill. It's nice to think about them, especially if testing them out is possible, but even then, it would be nice if CM did a sort of dev diary or something like that detailing what factors they used for this, as it would open them up to feedback so they can make their systems better for next year (especially given how many complaints the driver transfers have gotten for their ridiculousness). And yeah, my plan with Williams is similar - grab all the efficiency ugprades and 2 QA upgrades for every department and go ham. Biggest difference is that my component wear tends to be low and I'm happy to start from P20 every now and then if need be, so I'm ignoring reliability upgrades completely.

 

7 minutes ago, Andrew210227 said:

Also, sidenote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already but you can actually choose your teammate through a 'workaround' when you switch teams by choosing first or second driver status.

Yeah, I think you can do this even at the start of the game if you skip F2, as not skipping it means you get random offers that you cannot change until France. What I'm curious is - if you don't skip F2, do McLaren and Toro Rosso give you #1 contracts instead? Norris and Albon respectively are #2s, Butler in the Toro Rosso in my run started with the black T-cam, and the game forces all the real life rookies (Norris, Albon, Russell) to be on the grid no matter what because of a few lines that Crofty and Ant mention in Australia.

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3 minutes ago, Coffer said:

What I'm curious is - if you don't skip F2, do McLaren and Toro Rosso give you #1 contracts instead? Norris and Albon respectively are #2s, Butler in the Toro Rosso in my run started with the black T-cam, and the game forces all the real life rookies (Norris, Albon, Russell) to be on the grid no matter what because of a few lines that Crofty and Ant mention in Australia.

I've tried that for both STR and McLaren and always received #2 driver offer, but they still force the former GP2 guys as your teammate.

The number one and two driver status does change for AI teams during the career for sure, as I did a trial to switch to Ferrari as #1 driver and got Vettel as my teammate, reloaded my previous save and chose #2 and got Leclerc, who beat Vettel in my career season 1 in pretty much every category.

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Just now, Andrew210227 said:

I've tried that for both STR and McLaren and always received #2 driver offer, but they still force the former GP2 guys as your teammate.

The number one and two driver status does change for AI teams during the career for sure, as I did a trial to switch to Ferrari as #1 driver and got Vettel as my teammate, reloaded my previous save and chose #2 and got Leclerc, who beat Vettel in my career season 1 in pretty much every category.

Interesting. I thought you'd get #1 status given the T-cam, but I guess this is a rare exception. And yeah, usually after the first contract offer (France) the AI changes their driver status, which can lead to weirdness like Hamilton being #2 just because of a retirement or two and then demolishing Bottas for the rest of the season without getting his #1 status back.

And I'm surprised Leclerc did that for you. Vettel's doing way better than him in my run, making up a 30 second gap in Australia from an issue caused by Bottas hitting him and coming one lap short of beating him, then destroying him in Bahrain again early on (and getting pole) before Leclerc retired.

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7 minutes ago, Coffer said:

And I'm surprised Leclerc did that for you. Vettel's doing way better than him in my run, making up a 30 second gap in Australia from an issue caused by Bottas hitting him and coming one lap short of beating him, then destroying him in Bahrain again early on (and getting pole) before Leclerc retired.

Yeah Vettel finished 6th in my first season, Leclerc 4th (almost 3rd). I think Leclerc was about 50 points ahead. Vettel just seemed to run into a ton of trouble throughout the season, and the same thing happened in race 1 of season 2, where he lost part of his front wing and finished 10th (Leclerc 2nd). Don't ever say this game isn't realistic.

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