AI in the wet - all circuits

[SIMRACER123 356]

Posting that picture of a degree just feels a whole lot more awkward....

[Nastra100 14]

So I just did France and in practice sessions, I was well ahead of my teammate by about 0.3 seconds. I completed all the practice programmes and the qualifying one said I would finish 13th.

Get into qualifying and it is wet. I used 3 fresh intermediate tyres in Q1 and tried my absolute hardest, but my best time was 1.2 seconds slower than the car in 19th. I qualified last (only time I have done so in my entire career). This is seriously bugged

[SIMRACER123 356]

15 minutes ago, Nastra100 said:

So I just did France and in practice sessions, I was well ahead of my teammate by about 0.3 seconds. I completed all the practice programmes and the qualifying one said I would finish 13th.

Get into qualifying and it is wet. I used 3 fresh intermediate tyres in Q1 and tried my absolute hardest, but my best time was 1.2 seconds slower than the car in 19th. I qualified last (only time I have done so in my entire career). This is seriously bugged

See here is my concern and your description is a good example so I'm not generalising this at you.

None of your comment suggests making any set up changes to make the car suitable for wet weather driving. 

I'm not entirely convinced that people are comparing eggs with eggs.

Could it be that the AI build a wet weather set up where as many users don't?  

[Worntoathread 865]

1 minute ago, SIMRACER123 said:

See here is my concern and your description is a good example so I'm not generalising this at you.

None of your comment suggests making any set up changes to make the car suitable for wet weather driving. 

I'm not entirely convinced that people are comparing eggs with eggs.

Could it be that the AI build a wet weather set up where as many users don't?  

I'm sure that's not it; I adjust the setup accordingly for wet weather and the AI do not use custom setups as far as I'm aware. 

It also wouldn't explain what I saw in my test comparison thread, where in the wet, I was keeping up fine in the race with pretty average driving, while with the same setup, I was a second up on my team mate in qualy, no matter how hard I tried or often I restarted. There just seems to be some issue with AI times or grip levels in wet qualifying.

[Nastra100 14]

2 hours ago, SIMRACER123 said:

See here is my concern and your description is a good example so I'm not generalising this at you.

None of your comment suggests making any set up changes to make the car suitable for wet weather driving. 

I'm not entirely convinced that people are comparing eggs with eggs.

Could it be that the AI build a wet weather set up where as many users don't?  

So what you are basically saying is that all of a sudden since 1.05, all human players have suddenly become bad in the wet and the speed being shown by the AI is a deliberate intention of the developers.

These same humans have all been competitive against the wet AI for 6 versions of the game and then suddenly are falling 1.2 seconds behind........or just or, the game could be buggy.

As for the wet weather setup, how do you explain the loss of speed of human players in a wet weather transition. The AI like the player, are using the setup they started the race with but only the human loses major speed once it gets wet

[KrazyLurt 60]

Ai race speed in the wet are about the same level of difficulty as F1 2018. 

Cm updated the wet ai because they were slow as snails in traction out of corners.

[SIMRACER123 356]

1 hour ago, Nastra100 said:

So what you are basically saying is that all of a sudden since 1.05, all human players have suddenly become bad in the wet and the speed being shown by the AI is a deliberate intention of the developers.

These same humans have all been competitive against the wet AI for 6 versions of the game and then suddenly are falling 1.2 seconds behind........or just or, the game could be buggy.

As for the wet weather setup, how do you explain the loss of speed of human players in a wet weather transition. The AI like the player, are using the setup they started the race with but only the human loses major speed once it gets wet

To summarise your long winded response, i was merely wondering if that was a factor.

I for one have no idea whether they are overpowered or not. 

The only thing i can say for certain is overall, people do not spend as much time practicing in the wet on the game as they do in the dry nor do they spend as much time putting together wet weather set ups.

Whether that is a factor though we dont know.

[Algarde 9]

IA in wet have an incredible traction boost in 2/3 and 4th gear. It's a fact and the player can't do nothing about this "issue". Custom setup are perfectly useless to match the pace of the IA in wet, unless you drop the difficulty. And this occur in almost every circuit. 

[joserdcosta 52]

2 hours ago, Algarde said:

IA in wet have an incredible traction boost in 2/3 and 4th gear. It's a fact and the player can't do nothing about this "issue". Custom setup are perfectly useless to match the pace of the IA in wet, unless you drop the difficulty. And this occur in almost every circuit. 

Question: how many clicks you usually drop in terms of difficulty? Cheers

[milook 34]

19 hours ago, SIMRACER123 said:

See here is my concern and your description is a good example so I'm not generalising this at you.

None of your comment suggests making any set up changes to make the car suitable for wet weather driving. 

I'm not entirely convinced that people are comparing eggs with eggs.

Could it be that the AI build a wet weather set up where as many users don't?  

The AI don't even use setups in the dry.

[SIMRACER123 356]

19 minutes ago, milook said:

The AI don't even use setups in the dry.

Every car has a set up. 

[milook 34]

1 minute ago, SIMRACER123 said:

Every car has a set up. 

Of course. What I'm saying is the AI don't use different setups to default, no matter what the weather. (at least not on the difficulty I play on)

[Algarde 9]

3 hours ago, joserdcosta said:

Question: how many clicks you usually drop in terms of difficulty? Cheers

In dry conditions normally I play at 92 (with pad). In wet, to have a similar pace, i need to play around 80, depends on the circuits.

[RaceMyZaru 82]

Can obviously confirm this.

First race in Australia. Wasn't sure what my difficulty level should be yet for a mid-field team.

Quali program in the dry: I finished Practice 3 just hundreds off the fastest time. Q1 was wet, suddenly I only qualified 17th. In the dry race I finished 4th on pace. I've got hundreds of hours in modern Codemasters F1 games, and my wet weather pace was always only off when the game simulated times with the wrong AI grip level. Now it's an actual issue in the actual AI pace rather than just during simulation. 

So yeah, fix it please.

[SIMRACER123 356]

13 minutes ago, milook said:

Of course. What I'm saying is the AI don't use different setups to default, no matter what the weather. (at least not on the difficulty I play on)

Right.

But there's nothing to say a preset set up hasn't been input for the AI.

Not that we are aware of anyway. 

[joserdcosta 52]

Hello everyone,

I've tested the AI in the rain today. I'm racing with no assists, cockpit view and AI 100/101 for dry sessions. I used Austria in my test and my conclusion is the AI is indeed quicker than it should IMO.

Basically I had to decrease from 101 to 95 and I was quicker than Kimi (was playing as Giovinazzi) by 0.3 a lap. Given that I'd say at this point I'm "4/5 clicks slower in the wet" compared to the dry. My problem are the races where the conditions change. That will be tricky.

Cheers

 

[KrazyLurt 60]

Give it some time and you will improve 👍

Ive done Austria along with other races with no real difference in pace vs dry 

[Coffer 122]

On 8/20/2019 at 8:23 PM, SIMRACER123 said:

Could it be that the AI build a wet weather set up where as many users don't?

All you need to do to figure that out is to turn on the in-game telemetry and use a tool of any sort. The AI strictly uses the default setup in all situations, including wet races, and yes, their default setup is identical to your own so they don't use different "presets" or anything like that.

It's strictly a problem with the simplified physics. Because the AI plays by different rules compared to the player, they will be affected differently in any given situation. Before 2019 the problem was strictly with fast corners where the AI had significantly higher front grip than the player, but now the traction is affected as well. This is without even taking into account their use of ABS and their significantly higher ERS harvest rate (both also confirmed by the telemetry).

The bug's inconsistency is also nothing new for the series, as 2017, the other game in the series with an inconsistent AI traction problem, happily showed us every now and then.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Coffer

[joserdcosta 52]

5 hours ago, KrazyLurt said:

Give it some time and you will improve 👍

Ive done Austria along with other races with no real difference in pace vs dry 

I believe so. The only thing that bothers me is that people will keep decreasing AI level in the wet to match with the dry conditions. I think with a bit of practice we can match their pace but not everyone wants to do that. 

IMO they should tweak a little bit to make sure people keeps the AI level regardless the weather. I mean, it's noticeable there are more players having to change it than the ones who are able to match AI times in the rain.

It's also a shame codies didn't say anything about it yet (I think)

Cheers and thanks for the reply

[Coffer 122]

12 minutes ago, joserdcosta said:

I think with a bit of practice we can match their pace

I've set multiple WRs in the rain in the past, especially in 2018. There's a difference between just being out of practice for these unusual conditions and having to deal with an ongoing bug, especially as the problem lies in a single area (traction) and is not consistent from race to race, even on the same track.

[joserdcosta 52]

2 hours ago, Coffer said:

I've set multiple WRs in the rain in the past, especially in 2018. There's a difference between just being out of practice for these unusual conditions and having to deal with an ongoing bug, especially as the problem lies in a single area (traction) and is not consistent from race to race, even on the same track.

I agree with you. I'm not saying AI pace is fine. My point is it's not impossible to get there, but it takes too much effort compared to dry conditions. That's why I think they need to tweak it asap because it's ruining the experience when the race happens in changeable conditions. 

Thanks for the reply 

Would be nice if @Fayacould say something about this. This is a long discussion and we're trying to help. 

Cheers

[Faya 1,190]

Hi @joserdcosta and all,

We have been reading all of your feedback and I can tell you the team has been looking into this. 

[joserdcosta 52]

30 minutes ago, Faya said:

Hi @joserdcosta and all,

We have been reading all of your feedback and I can tell you the team has been looking into this. 

Thanks :)

[KrazyLurt 60]

2 hours ago, joserdcosta said:

I agree with you. I'm not saying AI pace is fine. My point is it's not impossible to get there, but it takes too much effort compared to dry conditions. That's why I think they need to tweak it asap because it's ruining the experience when the race happens in changeable conditions. 

Thanks for the reply 

Would be nice if @Fayacould say something about this. This is a long discussion and we're trying to help. 

Cheers

They could simply lower the settings, or pratice wet running to get up to speed to their dry pace.

The AI laptimes are very similar to dry difficulty, and they are like in dry races better in traction out of corners than acutal cornering speed. And that's what CM need to adjust, and it's good that we heard that this thread and others are being looked at, and hopefully they make a good judgement of the the quality of feedback.

Why is it that I feel that people who think the AI are OP, in fact are slower generally speaking in the wet versus people like me how think the average laptimes in race are fine are? Pretty simple, it's way more likely because:

1) My racing experience consists of less than 1% wet running, it would be highly unlikely that I am better in wet running than dry. My level are 104-107 dependning on the track, wet or dry.

2) I do not like driving in the wet, it's tidious and slow, no action or good battles.

3) I do not consider myself good in wet conditions, but on par, thus it would be very unlikely that I am in fact ultra fast, like 1 sec/lap faster than my dry pace relative to the AI. (that's like 5 clicks in the difficulty slider)

 

Using that logic its safe to assume that people how think the AI are OP in the wet are their not as good as their dry pace.

 

[Worntoathread 865]

17 minutes ago, KrazyLurt said:

They could simply lower the settings, or pratice wet running to get up to speed to their dry pace.

The AI laptimes are very similar to dry difficulty, and they are like in dry races better in traction out of corners than acutal cornering speed. And that's what CM need to adjust, and it's good that we heard that this thread and others are being looked at, and hopefully they make a good judgement of the the quality of feedback.

Why is it that I feel that people who think the AI are OP, in fact are slower generally speaking in the wet versus people like me how think the average laptimes in race are fine are? Pretty simple, it's way more likely because:

1) My racing experience consists of less than 1% wet running, it would be highly unlikely that I am better in wet running than dry. My level are 104-107 dependning on the track, wet or dry.

2) I do not like driving in the wet, it's tidious and slow, no action or good battles.

3) I do not consider myself good in wet conditions, but on par, thus it would be very unlikely that I am in fact ultra fast, like 1 sec/lap faster than my dry pace relative to the AI. (that's like 5 clicks in the difficulty slider)

 

Using that logic its safe to assume that people how think the AI are OP in the wet are their not as good as their dry pace.

 

That's a theory, but it doesn't explain the results from the test I did.

I can keep up fine in the race (including best lap time) but the AI are a full second faster in qualifying. If I'd lower the AI level to be competitive in qualy, I would lap the field in the race. It doesn't make sense.

https://forums.codemasters.com/topic/41738-ai-wet-qualifying-pace-issue-test-results/

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Worntoathread