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DiRT Rally 2.0 - Force Feedback

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1 hour ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

I just expect, that after collecting feedback (so involving community into some kind of work), they could inform community about the decision. Instead of that, they pretend they can't see the questions appearing from time to time about promised FFB changes. Answer "we decided to not change it any more" would be at least fair. Especially since it's official support forum, so getting answer from authorized person shouldn't be something extraordinary.

 

They might be monitoring it to see how many more different people request specific changes, and what people note in continuing reviews.  Stuff like this often changes priority in dev houses.  I can't really say more on it as I don't know the details of their plans/scheduling.

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It's been quiet a few months now since Christina said this... What is the status?

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6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

Are you confident about what you are saying?

100%

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

Or you are saying that all simracing developers do that wrong for almost 20 years already?

No, I'm saying that every developer handles ffb differently, which leads to people having differing ideas on what the best implementation of ffb.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

Anyway you made 2 mistakes in single sentence.

No I didn't, you made the mistake when you misread what I wrote and made your own conclusions about what I was saying.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

At first the game is developed for majority. No for real world rally/rallycross drivers.

Two wrongs. First wrong, the DiRT Rally games were actually made for a minority. A minority that were members of this forum when Codies asked forum members what they wanted in their long asked for rally sim. While those wanting a rally sim where the majority of forum users, forum users were the minority of DiRT players.

Second wrong, if the game is developed for the majority then ffb development is unimportant as the majority of gamers use pads not ffb steering wheels.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

Ignoring majority needs is like shooting own foot (regardless majority are right or not)

As I said above, wheel users are not the majority of players, pad users are. Thanks for agreeing with the idea that the majority isn't always right, that was the point of my original post.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

At second who are those consultants whos help turns into FFB lacking of slip-related feedback? The same who suggested to break steering range?

That information is actually already out there, but I'll name a couple of the top of my head... Jon Armstrong, who is both rally driver and a sim rally driver, and Oliver Solberg, a rally driver, rallycross driver, sim racing driver and son of Petter Solberg, a WRC champion and rallycross driver.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

And on top of that: CM's previous titles was better fitting "house bound simracers" needs.

If the ffb was better in older games, why did so many people ask for it to be changed?

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

if CM invented ground breaking change in FFB (obviously different to what is proposed by leading developers of simracing titles), why I never seen any word about this new approach?

I guess you never read any of Codies comments on the forum about the idea behind the original ffb that was released with the game, they explained their approach and the thought process behind it. They tried to emulate the actual feelings you get through the wheel, not add in synthetic feelings that you find in other sims ffb.

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

I'm not even going into details why FFB MUST be different comparing to real world steering wheel and why.

Because not everything is felt through the wheel, which is why different companies handle ffb differently, which leads to differing expectations on what the ideal ffb settings are, which leads straight back to my original comment that everybody has a different idea of what ffb should be.

 

 

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Edit: I removed a big part of my post 'cause its going to drift to nowhere.

Quote

they explained their approach and the thought process behind it. They tried to emulate the actual feelings you get through the wheel, not add in synthetic feelings that you find in other sims ffb.

They tried and they failed. It happens. Nobody questioning improvement attempts.
Now we are asking: Are CM is going to revise the FFB in DR2 (as promised half year ago) or not.

Could we get straight answer or every time we ask we will be ignored or pulled away from main topic?

 

 

 

 

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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1 hour ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

(as promised half year ago)

I keep seeing this being repeated, but I don't recall anyone promising they'd improve the FFB, only that they'd take another look at it and see what they can do.

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1 hour ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

They tried and they failed.

They didn't fail.  The FFB is closer to real life than it was in DR1 IMO and based on the discussions above probably also according to SME's.  There is some % of players complaining about it, but as Apple would say, "a small percentage of users".    It's just not so easy to say with FFB that someone failed without providing some actual data (anything concrete) or expert opinion to back it up. 

Edit: I think what you can claim is that the decision to make more realistic FFB rather than traditional FFB with extra assists and exaggerated effects is not something you like as a gamer.

Edited by bn880
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39 minutes ago, caerphoto said:

I keep seeing this being repeated, but I don't recall anyone promising they'd improve the FFB, only that they'd take another look at it and see what they can do.

When they released the last update regarding force feedback in May, they stated that it was a work in progress.

 

Quote

We want to give a huge thanks to the entire community for their feedback and patience while we’ve looked into implementing these changes – especially to those of you who’ve taken the time to come back to us with incredibly useful, nuanced feedback about your FFB experiences. It’s worth mentioning that while this is the first big update to the FFB, it’s definitely a work in progress and we plan to refine the feeling further. Please – let us know what you think.

http://blog.codemasters.com/community/05/dirt-rally-2-0-road-book-16-05-19/

 

13 minutes ago, bn880 said:

They didn't fail.  The FFB is closer to real life than it was in DR1 IMO and based on the discussions above probably also according to SME's.

This is actually the problem. Simulating how the steering feels based on real life in a video game, removes a lot of the information that Sim racers need. This information can now only be felt if you happen to have a motion rig of some kind. Sure, its possible to play the game without the feeling in the wheel we got in DR1; but we shouldnt have too. The options should be there for us all to tailor the FFB to own own individual liking. If people prefer it how it is, then a system should be in place to allow that. If someone wants feel in other places, there should be options to allow that. Previously these changes should be made in the files directly. A lot of that stuff has also been removed, so we are no at the mercy of Codemasters for any FFB improvements. For some of us, it is lack lustre. To me, dirt, snow and gravel feels fine; actually more than fine. I prefer it. Its when driving on tarmac or ice that the lack of feeling really comes into it. Tarmac only really has weight and self alinging feel to the steering, but cant feel anything the tires at all. Ice on the other hand, you cant feel anything but very light self aligning forces. This is a big problem, as you have to rely only on visual cues in the game to drive well on Monte Carlo. Not everyone can adapt to that lack of feeling, and it makes that rally feel very numb. Especially when compared to DR1's Monte Carlo. And lets face it, even DR1 lacked any proper tire feel; but its still better than what we have now. The argument is purely around the forced lack of options to tailor the FFB to the individuals taste.

Dont get me wrong though, it can also be taken to far the other way. Just look at Project Cars 1, its a perfect example that you can have too many options.


 

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12 minutes ago, Ialyrn said:

This is actually the problem. Simulating how the steering feels based on real life in a video game, removes a lot of the information that Sim racers need. This information can now only be felt if you happen to have a motion rig of some kind. Sure, its possible to play the game without the feeling in the wheel we got in DR1; but we shouldnt have too. The options should be there for us all to tailor the FFB to own own individual liking. If people prefer it how it is, then a system should be in place to allow that. If someone wants feel in other places, there should be options to allow that. Previously these changes should be made in the files directly. A lot of that stuff has also been removed, so we are no at the mercy of Codemasters for any FFB improvements. For some of us, it is lack lustre. To me, dirt, snow and gravel feels fine; actually more than fine. I prefer it. Its when driving on tarmac or ice that the lack of feeling really comes into it. Tarmac only really has weight and self alinging feel to the steering, but cant feel anything the tires at all. Ice on the other hand, you cant feel anything but very light self aligning forces. This is a big problem, as you have to rely only on visual cues in the game to drive well on Monte Carlo. Not everyone can adapt to that lack of feeling, and it makes that rally feel very numb. Especially when compared to DR1's Monte Carlo. And lets face it, even DR1 lacked any proper tire feel; but its still better than what we have now. The argument is purely around the forced lack of options to tailor the FFB to the individuals taste.

Dont get me wrong though, it can also be taken to far the other way. Just look at Project Cars 1, its a perfect example that you can have too many options.

What do you find lacking when on ice? As ice has no friction you end up with... yeah, pretty much nothing. A dead wheel. That's what I get from the FFB when on ice.

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Yeah the ice patches on Monte are probably the best thing they've done in terms of FFB.

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1 hour ago, Decks said:

Yeah the ice patches on Monte are probably the best thing they've done in terms of FFB.

Thats worrying because we dont have any FFB on the ice is do we? 

Edited by FLAW3D
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7 hours ago, Decks said:

Yeah the ice patches on Monte are probably the best thing they've done in terms of FFB.

Yeah it's well done for sure.  The dead wheel feeling. (okay not that it's extremely hard to do, but everything takes work and testing!)

Edited by bn880

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Ice - no feeling, fine. Nor should there be...its ice.

Gravel, dirt and snow - all good IMO.

The real issue here is tarmac...which is why so many people do not like Monte. Combine dead wheel on ice with almost dead wheel on tarmac - and driving on Monte with all the transitions between the two surface types becomes very cumbersome. Having spent the last few weeks playing Grid - and experiencing the same numb feeling there; leads me to believe that the issue with ‘proper’ FFB and hard surfaces extends beyond CM’s perception what FFB is like in a Rally Car. Not sure if it is the game engine, or the base code for FFB, or how CM wraps hardware-related program metadata in to their platforms, but something always seems to get lost in translation when it comes to tarmac. Coincidence - not.

On the topic of enhanced FFB for DR2.0 - I’m of the opinion to leave well enough alone on un-paved surfaces, but definitely address the tarmac issue. Hopefully the next generation of games will bring forth a new engine, that re-thinks how FFB code is modelled. Lalyrn has a good point insofar as FFB options, and how they should be made available to offer different users a range of options and/or presets to suit their particular tastes. Those who want ‘canned’ effects - here ya go. Those who have higher end hardware and direct drive set ups where forces are replicated in a more 1:1 fashion - can defeat/disable said ‘artificial’ forces.

In a day and age where virtually every consumer electronic device/interface known to man is user-adjustable to preference, it should behoove game devs to act in kind. People like choices, and gamers are becoming increasingly discerning about their tastes as sim-tech evolves.

Edited by Buckwilder
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