Jump to content

DiRT Rally 2.0 - Force Feedback

Recommended Posts

When the FFB update got released, the notes said that they were still working on further refinement. I agree that FFB was better, at least compared to the almost non-existent thing that we got on release, but still not up to par to DR1. Was just watching this video from Gamer's Muscle and seems that he has the same opinion: 

 

So, is this it for FFB in DR2? Or can we expect further improvements?

  • Sad 1
  • Agree 3
  • Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It would help if people would articulate exactly what improvements they want to see. It's no good just saying "DR1 was better" or "it needs more", you need to explain what's missing, what you would like to be able to feel through the wheel. Even saying "I want to feel the suspension loading up" isn't that helpful – can you explain how that translates into a feeling in the wheel?

If enough people can come to some agreement on this, as with the first FFB patch where people wanted more "road texture", then maybe something will get done.

Also, go back and try DR1 some time. It's not as good as everyone (including GM) seems to think, tbh.

Edited by caerphoto
  • Agree 9
  • Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, ffb is much, much better than DR1. People really need to stop idealizing that game.

  • Confused 1
  • Agree 6
  • Disagree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I really like the FFB now. I'd still say the surface detail and tire slip is a touch better in DR1 but the weight and SAT is much better in DR2. 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add, to be fair to GM, that he says that overall DR2's FFB is better than DR1's, and also that some aspects of DR1's FFB are better, and I agree, I think, although I can't recall precisely right now what it is that is better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that there are aspect to it that are better. But it is missing the nuance of the surface detail. Which to me make Dirt Rally a more fun and visceral experience in terms of ffb. Everything else Dirt Rally 2 is vastly superior. 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Decks said:

Yeah I really like the FFB now. I'd still say the surface detail and tire slip is a touch better in DR1 but the weight and SAT is much better in DR2. 

That´s it! We can feel the suspension , but we can´t feel the tyres. On tarmac the tyres are quiet - nothing to feel (Monte Carlo is a good example). The feeling of the suspension is great, but without the tyres it is not complete.

Edited by Flens07
  • Agree 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Version 1.4 was the "big" FFB update; it's pretty low down the priority list these days as content and features are the focus.

 

If the community can some to some sort of consensus of anything specific that is positive/negative, I may be able to feed that back to the team 🙂 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Basically on tarmac we just need to make it feel more like Raceroom.Take a hillclimb car in one of  the hillclimb tracks in Raceroom in practice mode ,and see what we mean.Just needs more "bumps and rattle and vertical vibration" lol on asphalt............... and steering needs to specifically alter effort as car slip angle varies.

Edited by Madhun1967
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can we wheel users have the other 2/3's of the settings that controller users have "tyres slip" and "engine torque",instead of just suspension been only a 1/3 of what controller users have.discrimination at its best !!!!!!!,tj you claim to be a sim racer but you can't drive a car without knowing what the front wheels are doing or if they are there at all.at this moment in time it feel like your towing a caravan with a snowmobile !!!!!.no idea as to where the front wheels are because there is no front wheels.imagine driving an f1 car with skids on the front instead of wheels and tyres and this is what dirt 2.0 is like.please sort this urgently or the game will dye quicker than i'm sure you would like.and damage your already flagging rep even further.we deserve the game to be all it can be not some half arsed that will do attitude turn this around before its to late.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, PJTierney said:

Version 1.4 was the "big" FFB update; it's pretty low down the priority list these days as content and features are the focus.

 

If the community can some to some sort of consensus of anything specific that is positive/negative, I may be able to feed that back to the team 🙂 

 

Tyre slip and road texture is what I'm missing. And the reason why I'm posting this is that the Road book where 1.4 was published stated the following:

"It’s worth mentioning that while this is the first big update to the FFB, it’s definitely a work in progress and we plan to refine the feeling further. Please – let us know what you think."

  • Like 1
  • Agree 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plans can change over time; I'm not fully aware of what was discussed about FFB before I joined (I came in around the time of 1.5) but as far as I'm aware FFB isn't as critical an issue as it was before 1.4.

  • Thanks 1
  • Disagree 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, but just going from that post I was expecting further refinement, which in my opinion (and the opinion of many others), the game still needs. Which is not to say the game is terrible, it just means that it could be better with a bit more attention to these more nuanced effects. As an example of a game that feels great Codemaster's own F1 2019 has fantastic FFB IMO. 

  • Agree 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, PJTierney said:

Plans can change over time

So it is! My personal plan for further Codemaster-products is written by now (but I think they wouldn´t change)! Thank you .... effrontery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PJTierney can we at least have the same sliders as controller users as this may reduce the need for a ffb update.just a thought that might just save the devs some time and give us some much needed reassurance that things can be achieved if we all work together.all inputs should have the same ffb regardless if its a controller.wheel or keyboard and mouse.pretty please with a cherry on top.could be a simple fix for a complex problem ?.                                                                                                                                                                          

  • Sad 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"plans can change". so can peoples purchase habits, you really should think before posting things like this as it could end peoples interest in your games if your going to flat out MISLEAD YOUR CUSTOMERS,I FOR ONE WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING ABJECT FAILURE ANY MORE.JUST CANCELLED PRE ORDER GRID.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, chrisjaf said:

PJTierney can we at least have the same sliders as controller users as this may reduce the need for a ffb update.just a thought that might just save the devs some time and give us some much needed reassurance that things can be achieved if we all work together.all inputs should have the same ffb regardless if its a controller.wheel or keyboard and mouse.pretty please with a cherry on top.could be a simple fix for a complex problem ?.                                                                                                                                                                          

No, because those sliders adjust controller-specific effects, i.e. they control the rumble motors. There is no simple or direct way to translate rumble motor feedback into wheel feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, let's try and put something together then.

What specific issues are you all having regards Force Feedback? Be as granular as you can.

Also point out what you feel is "right" or "perfect" right now, so that we have a metric on what works and what doesnt for you guys.

 

As for input configuration, settings etc., we have a dedicated thread for that that will affect things in the future (if not for this game, then for future titles).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

here goes,at the moment it feel as though all the suspension movements come from the rear of the car instead of from all corners,this makes it feel like a forklift,rear wheel steering, there is very little tyre feel from front end hence you can't drive the car to the max, you have to guess what is happening at the front end,surface detail we just get the feel that the wheel bearings have collapsed and track rod ends are about to fall out,as things are there is no difference in tyres as we cant feel them doing what they are supposed to.more weight on the front end instead of it all been on the rear,front wheels that feel like there actually in contact with the road instead of feeling like they are free wheeling in fresh air,hows that for starters. xbox 1x thrustmaster tx pro pedals and shifter,latest firmware on all.

Edited by chrisjaf
  • Confused 1
  • Agree 1
  • Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2019 at 7:01 PM, Flens07 said:

That´s it! We can feel the suspension , but we can´t feel the tyres. On tarmac the tyres are quiet - nothing to feel (Monte Carlo is a good example). The feeling of the suspension is great, but without the tyres it is not complete.

THis ist what I wrote a few days ago.  No feelings what the tyres are doing. In DR1 (yes, it is often used to explain the ffb) you can feel the tyres very well.

When you drive in Monte Carlo with the little ice-fields you feel nothing about them. When you are underway on a tarmac-stage and the track is wet, you don´t feel the puddles . It is only optical... Its like driving on smooth ice or flying over the tarmac-track

 

The suspension is done very well!!👍

Edited by Flens07
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, PJTierney said:

Okay, let's try and put something together then.

What specific issues are you all having regards Force Feedback? Be as granular as you can.

Also point out what you feel is "right" or "perfect" right now, so that we have a metric on what works and what doesnt for you guys.

 

As for input configuration, settings etc., we have a dedicated thread for that that will affect things in the future (if not for this game, then for future titles).

 

In general, the centering force and response of wheel alignment is very good, with the patch the feeling of road imperfections was greatly improved, in my opinion this last effect should be polished a little more, and as many say above, the option of sliding the wheels on the surface should be given, when they skate and when they skid sideways, or when the brakes are nailed, those sensations are the ones that are missing, the feel when the wheels are in direct contact with the track and when they are not (sliding), and also improve the sensation in the landings of the jumps, that do not feel.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, the high frequency 'rumble', similar to what you get on the controller, to indicate the texture and grip of the tires on the surface is missing. And it would get much lighter when the tires lose grip, and much softer and higher frequency on ice, lower frequency and softer on tarmac, and higher frequency and strong on gravel. To be honest, it already feels a bit like this in Dirt Rally 1.0. In short, something that describes the texture and how gripped the tires are to it. 

 

  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when the wheel locks up, when you brake, the steering wheel becomes softer on the asphalt and becomes softer with vibration on the gravel.
During acceleration, as in the beginning (gravel and asphalt) and the re-acceleration at the end of the turn on the gravel, additional vibrations.
when shifting, an impulse could be felt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/24/2019 at 9:01 AM, PJTierney said:

Version 1.4 was the "big" FFB update; it's pretty low down the priority list these days as content and features are the focus.

 

If the community can some to some sort of consensus of anything specific that is positive/negative, I may be able to feed that back to the team 🙂 

 

Based on the many threads I have been reading, the consensus is, we want tire slip effect. We want to feel better when we are on the edge of the available grip. Other games have this effect and many people like it. Even DR1 had this effect. If you put it on a slider then people who don't like it can just turn it down or off. Many people have asked for this since day one so pleas can you add it soooon. 🙂

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, PJTierney said:

Okay, let's try and put something together then.

What specific issues are you all having regards Force Feedback? Be as granular as you can.

Also point out what you feel is "right" or "perfect" right now, so that we have a metric on what works and what doesnt for you guys.

 

As for input configuration, settings etc., we have a dedicated thread for that that will affect things in the future (if not for this game, then for future titles).

 

Ok..

For myself and many others in our racing groups and communities that have left dirt rally 2 it's been solely because of the FFB on PC, here's why!

 

1) You are passing an engine rumble effect etc via the rumble motors available on some rims. For example, when using the Porsche rim for fanatec you feel some extra effects (that are absolutely essential) via the inbuilt rumble motors in the rim. However these rumble motors are NOT present in all Fanatec rims such as the Universal Hub etc. Therefore users using a no. Rumble rim, experience SIGNIFICANTLY reduced information vs those who have/use a rumble mote.

these effects USED to be transferred VIA the motor (not the rumble motors in the rim) ala Dirt 4 etc.

 

2) Driving a vehicle on tarmac even at 30mph causes you steering wheel (in SOME* games and more importantly in reality) to move with mild chatter. This chatter is a mix of a myriad of forces such as uneven surface, camber, inclines, engine rumble, tyre flex, environmental forces such as wind ambient air pressure etc. and of course surface texture etc.

All of these forces are stabilised in reality into a mild chatter/sway as you drive, you'll see even driving down a perfectly straight motorway at 80mph you wheel will have some movement even if only 1mm each way, but it can NOT be entirely dead in every possible respect. The laws of physics do not allow this in our objective reality. 

In Dirt Rally 2 a user (without a rumble effect rim on PC) can literally drive a stripped out, souped up insane beast of a machine, at over 120mph down a bumpy single lane road... and if you let go of your wheel (or hold it) it's entirely DEAD! Utterly lifeless where as in real life videos and real life in General, and other (proper) sims you hand will receive chatter and also some elasticity from the suspension / tyres etc on the uneven surface. There is NOTHING in DR2!

 

3) When driving down a road and approaching a corner at 90mph, the steering should be heavier (power steering reduces at speed + downforce etc) and as you turn the wheel it should progressively get heavier the more you turn into the corner.

This is again, due to the laws of physics as we have more friction and pressure, forces being applied to the tyres plus compression of the suspension and sway (centre of gravity) changing as weight transfer to the front / sides of the vehicle which make it progressively harder to turn the wheel the more we enter into the corner. (This is particularly evident on front engine vehicles in reality)

 

However in DR2 you can literally blast down a road at 120mph and use your pinky finger to turn the steering wheel and the car pivots into the corner, causing a sawing effect at the wheel as there is no pressure fighting us as we try to turn. This is evident in a lot if YouTube videos where users saw at the wheel in corners, where in reality we would turn, the wheel would fight us, we would turn more, it would resist us more.

 

Dirt Rally 2 has none of these effects meaning you can just hurtle down the road with you completely DEAD wheel, turn you wheel with 1 little pinky (and I'm using my Fanatec DD2 here!) and the car pivots into the corner in a laughable manner! In REALITY I've have to tense both arms and squeeze with pressure to get that car to turn into that corner. But the game provides NO resistance THRE FLEX etc.

 

Additionally, when users approach corners on road surfaces, mane of them find after turning into the corner, they have to counter steer out, then turn back in a little, then turn back out a little.. causing a "sawing" effect which is NOT how it should be. It should be that we turn the wheel and the FFB tries to push us back, meaning we can then apply the correct amount of pressure to hold the wheel at the correct point that will get us around the corner in 1 held movement, instead of 6 sawing effects. 

 

4) a fantastic example of tyre flex and pressure (FOR THIS EXAMPLE ONLY / NOT IN GENERAL) is ACC try turning a corner in ACC in a heavy vehicle. You will see that the wheel motion is smooth, aim for the Apex, feel how much the wheel pushes back, apply the correct amount of pressure round the wheel to balance / hold it in that location to get round the corner, it will fight, push and hit you back etc when you hit the kerb etc, but you anticipate that and "tense" to apply extra pressure then as you exit the corners Apex you begin letting the wheels self centre, and you reduce the pressure applied allowing the wheel / car to smoothly exit anf straighten up its self. 

NONE of this is evident in DR2 the user has to straighten the car themselves, constantly turning to much, then correcting, then turning again, over correcting etc because we get NO information from the tyres / forces / suspension etc we have to guess. 

 

5) Those asking for tyle slip of fake under steer are incorrect and wrong! That effect needs to die in a fire! DO NOT ADD FAKE UNDERSTEER EFFECT!

 

if code is are willing to make the FFB modable again, I'll upload my edit D3 FFBZ where I added a myriad of effects that enhanced the game 10fold. 

 

I added gear change kicks, road rumble effects, engine rumble, removed the fake understeer and added progressive weight (to a degree) but if they see what it was, and where it is now, they can get an idea of what's missing, as the FFB on this game is a shocking embarrassment for a "sim" (which it's not). 

 

The game is a good arcade game, running in bonnet cam On a pad is great!

But it's terrible on a high end wheel, it actually feels better on childs toy products like the Logitech etc as they have rumble effects that high end wheels don't have.

So in some cases the toy wheels feel better than the CSWv2.5 and the OSW and DD2 etc. So those running kids toys like Logitech and driving in bonnet cam, they love the game. 

But those running professional grade hardware and who want good FFB and DASHCAM aren't enjoying this and the numbers/reviews prove it. Most of the negative reviews etc are from hardcore sim racers/high end wheel users. Console users and toy wheel users absolutely love the game.

 

So how can this be fixed? SIMPLE!

1) Bring back dash cam that was PIONEERED in Dirt Rally and PERFECTED in Dirt 4! That camera was SO good FORZA added it to FM7 and Forza Horizon 4... and now your biggest competitor added it to WRC 7! You guys PIONEERED that camera then removed it after everyone loved it and ALL your competitors added it? ***??

2) LISTEN to high end non rumble wheel users and add the choice to divert / redirect ALL the forces to the motor! 

 

This is game could be spectacular, but it's just not as enjoyable to play as D4 or DR1 due to it feeling so lifeless and dead through the wheel. 

 

Additionally, if you can't make FFB work after 15 Dirt titles I have no faith the FFBZ in Grid will be any better, which is why none of the team/teams I race with are buying that product or supporting it. I may G2A it after a few months but none of us will buy it full price etc. 

 

Good of luck and take this post in any way you wish! Yes it's got a lot of negative remarks, but feel free to ignore them and focus on the actual content I'm providing in regard to that FFB. You don't have to like me or my post, but there is no denying... the force feedback is an effing embarrassment for what is nearly 2020!!!

 

 

  • Agree 4
  • Disagree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×