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Is FFB ever going to get further refinement/improvements

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Posted (edited)

I agree on 1-3, but I don't have any problem mentioned in 5 and 6 (T300RS on PC). Also, my wheel feels very light at the centre - if I add more SAT, then it's ok at the centre, but it's too heavy when you turn more.

Edited by virgism
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5 hours ago, PJTierney said:

 

  1. Wheel users missing "Tyre Slip" and "Engine Torque" settings that controllers users have. **

** This may be intentional based on how controllers and wheels work differently, just my personal guess.

Thanks for your interest.   PJTierney

with note to point 1 - Its not really the settings being greyed out thats the issue - ( as explained by caerphoto)   it is the code that is no doubt needed to actually produce the feedback effectfor wheel users .  ( well for me anyhoo) 

 

Again thanks

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the list feels strong.  not sure i could narrow it down to 3 but maybe some of them feel redundant?

for me its 

1: tire slip

2: road texture

3:sense of suspension (jumps/elevation changes)

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Hi PJ thanks for listening and good luck with getting these issues sorted so that more wheel users will have less to complain about. My 3 biggest issue I have listed below. I think a lot of people will agree on the two biggest issues with a lot of differing views on the 3rd.

  1. Not getting enough feedback from the tyres, Tyre Slip in particular.
  2. Lack of vertical suspension feedback, most obvious with 
  3. On some locations (mainly tarmac) the road surface feels too smooth, resulting in less feedback through the wheel
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big thanks to pj for listening,1 tyre slip 2 vertical suspension 3 surface detail. 

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1. Not getting enough feedback from the tyres, Tyre Slip in particular.

2. Wheel users missing "Tyre Slip" and "Engine Torque" settings that controllers users have.

3. Lack of vertical suspension feedback, most obvious with jumps.

 

PS: I am playing with a rig of 3 bass shakers so the ffb problem is decreased a little, but still waiting for a proper solution.....

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For me:

-Tire slip in some cases, when cornering and in some surfaces it's there but many times too subtle when braking lock it's not, and it's very important mostly when not using ABS.

-Vertical suspension feedback, in jumps it's ok. 

-Track FFB or car related FFB, feels too smooth in some surfaces, it feels much better when the track has "bad track surface degradation", it's more alive. Spain Tarmac feels flat very very flat for example, but sand too.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2019 at 7:36 AM, PJTierney said:

Hi all, thanks for the feedback 👍🏻

I'm reading through now and see some patterns emerging.

Does this seem correct to you all in terms of what the main remaining issues are? *

 

  1. Not getting enough feedback from the tyres, Tyre Slip in particular.
  2. Wheel users missing "Tyre Slip" and "Engine Torque" settings that controllers users have. **
  3. On some locations (mainly tarmac) the road surface feels too smooth, resulting in less feedback through the wheel.
  4. Existing tyre feedback feels like it's more focused on the rear tyres than the fronts.
  5. Steering doesn't get heavier the harder you turn into a corner.
  6. Lack of vertical suspension feedback, most obvious with jumps.

 

I'd like to drill this down to the 3 "big issues" you guys are having, as that would be beneficial when I talk to the team. 👍🏻

 

* Let's try and nail down the big issues that the community generally agrees on instead of chasing the final 1%.

** This may be intentional based on how controllers and wheels work differently, just my personal guess.

@PJTierney  Mostly agree with what Caer said, and to clarify when you lock up in reality on tarmac, you might feel a bit less force on the wheel depending on how much grip you lose and how much the front lifts up.   You won't feel anything on the rear unless it starts to come around and do funny things.

Tarmac smoothness might be accurate for Spain, probably not 100% accurate for DE if you see how rough that tarmac is IRL.

 

But I would like to add a very critical point to this all, whatever stuff is added, if it's NOT a real 1:1 representation but additional aid/feedback, PLEASE put it on a new option/slider.

Edited by bn880
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  On 7/31/2019 at 7:36 AM, PJTierney said:

Hi all, thanks for the feedback 👍🏻

I'm reading through now and see some patterns emerging.

Does this seem correct to you all in terms of what the main remaining issues are? *

 

  1. Not getting enough feedback from the tyres, Tyre Slip in particular.
  2. Wheel users missing "Tyre Slip" and "Engine Torque" settings that controllers users have. **
  3. On some locations (mainly tarmac) the road surface feels too smooth, resulting in less feedback through the wheel.
  4. Existing tyre feedback feels like it's more focused on the rear tyres than the fronts.
  5. Steering doesn't get heavier the harder you turn into a corner.
  6. Lack of vertical suspension feedback, most obvious with jumps.

 

I'd like to drill this down to the 3 "big issues" you guys are having, as that would be beneficial when I talk to the team. 👍🏻

 

* Let's try and nail down the big issues that the community generally agrees on instead of chasing the final 1%.

** This may be intentional based on how controllers and wheels work differently, just my personal guess.

@PJTierney

Any movement on this?

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I’ve passed on the hot discussion topics and linked to the thread. 🙂 

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On 7/26/2019 at 9:04 AM, PJTierney said:

This is all good stuff, keep it up.

Once I get another page or so of responses I can pass it on so that we've something substantial in terms of organised feedback.

 

This isn't a guarantee that anything will change (I can't speak for the dev team and their plans/workload) but at least it guarantees your feedback is acknowledged and it may have impacts in ways you do not know of yet (like future games) 🙂 

We were promised that there would be futher updates/improvements to the FFB and that's what people here are asking for. The fact we were promised further updates should make this a priority, or it will only cause further damage Codemasters reputation, as a company that does not care about its customers. I do realise that wheel users are in a minority, but we are the life blood of these type of games. We are not casual players and want something better than an arcade game. IMHO the FFB is not terrible and people that think is should be completely redone, are not being realistic. The main thing that is missing now is tyre slip effect. This would help us to feel when we are are on the edge of the available grip. So common Codemasters remember your promise to us wheel users and give us another FFB update.

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Fingers crossed the developers are feeling generous about our requests then. Thanks for your help on this issue PJ.

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I would be shocked and amazed if they introduce another FFB update. It would appear that FFB ship has sailed...there is no way they are going to allocate resources to writing more FFB code. It is what it is folks. IF they release another DIRT game, maybe then we’ll see a truer more accurate sense of FFB. For the record, I find the current arrangement tolerable, but far from perfect. It’s a shame really, because DR 2.0 was a golden oppty to hit a home run with an improved FFB model. The user base was there, the hype was there, but it fell flat quickly on the FFB front and so along with it went away the hard core crowd that directly influence the lasting ‘buzz’ with any good racing game. 

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Posted (edited)

Christina promised that update 1.4 was only the beginning of the improvements to the FFB. Surely for that reason alone, there should be more updates, or people will lose faith in what CM says it will fix in future, which will only hurt future sales of any CM releases.

Edited by Mattshep
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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2019 at 1:36 PM, PJTierney said:

Hi all, thanks for the feedback 👍🏻

I'm reading through now and see some patterns emerging.

Does this seem correct to you all in terms of what the main remaining issues are? *

 

  1. Not getting enough feedback from the tyres, Tyre Slip in particular.
  2. Wheel users missing "Tyre Slip" and "Engine Torque" settings that controllers users have. **
  3. On some locations (mainly tarmac) the road surface feels too smooth, resulting in less feedback through the wheel.
  4. Existing tyre feedback feels like it's more focused on the rear tyres than the fronts.
  5. Steering doesn't get heavier the harder you turn into a corner.
  6. Lack of vertical suspension feedback, most obvious with jumps.

 

I'd like to drill this down to the 3 "big issues" you guys are having, as that would be beneficial when I talk to the team. 👍🏻

 

* Let's try and nail down the big issues that the community generally agrees on instead of chasing the final 1%.

** This may be intentional based on how controllers and wheels work differently, just my personal guess.

You all talk about Tyre Split and Engine Torque, but the main missing effect for wheels, the one which have an active slider which does nothing, is Tire Friction (Tire Slip too but it's kind of a part of tire friction, I don't know if it deserves a separate slider or if it's just a different name designated for a limited rumble effect for controlers). It's because of the lack of this effect that we can't feel at all tires lock under braking or tires spin when exiting a corner on dirt for example, so we can't feel if we put too much throttle on turn exit on dirt and can't manage the throttle through the FFB to keep it on edge, we just understand we put too much throttle by seeing the line widening, which is far from ideal. A good test to understand that is to make tires spin at the start with a powerful car, the engine will rev high, the car will barely move, and you'll feel absolutely nothing in the wheel, nothing telling you the tires are spinning.

There is other problems with the FFB (weight transfer, the ones you listed...), but tire friction is the one effect which needs absolutely to be fixed to stop the FFB from messing up the driving and the enjoyment of some of the players (at least the one which drive based on the FFB).

As of the Engine Torque, we feel the rumble in the vibration motors which are in Fantatec's wheels. I've not checked if it's the gamepad effect which is linked to the grayed Engine Torque slider or if it's not linked to a slider and can be toned down only from the onwheel SHO setting.

It's quite unbelievable that after 6 months, a company which develop FFB since 20 years (I recently tried the first CMR on PC, it had (very poor) FFB) seems unable to understand some very obvious problems, or try to make people think there is no problem. After all, the community managers say since 5 months they are working hard on the FFB and it took 3-4 months to make a very minor fix (tweaking a multiplier, pretty much what we could do by tweaking an XML file since day one, just applied to the suspension effect only instead of the whole FFB in the XML file, a very minor fix compared to the implementation of a missing effect, which shows they were not really working on the FFB, even this minor fix wasn't ready for the 1.4 and they had to release a 1.4.1 for it), but the communication said it was a big fix when it has been released, trying to make people think it required a lot of work. Seriously, it was a fu... multiplier which should have been fixed on the first week...

In fact, it's quite unbelievable the FFB has been released like that, it's quite unbelievable the 1.4.1 minor fix has not been released in the first post release patch, it's quite unbelievable that the missing effects have not been added in the first month, it's quite unbelievable that the communication of CM seems to be quite the opposite of what they are really doing. And it's the same thing with many other problems/bugs.

The only vaguely logical explanation I see is that they were/are crunching on F1 2019 and GRID and, to release them in a better shape than DR2, took the decision to sacrifice DR2 by spending as little resources as possible fixing bugs (but still a bit to release patches and be able to say they are working hard on it, but those patches contain mostly minor or unfinished/defective fixes or at least not much compared to the time they took to be released) but communicate like if they were working hard on fixing bugs as damage control.

I almost never buy games day 1, I did it this time, missleaded by pre-release reviewers which reported nothing about the FFB, and since 6 months, I just can't play to a game I want badly to play and have paid full price because of something I couldn't even imagine possible, releasing a broken FFB on the one game which doesn't tolerate incomplete or broken FFB, your most simish game, while you release games with decent FFB since more than a decade and while DR1 FFB was ok. Having a broken/incomplete FFB on a sim (or simish) game is intolerable, not having fixed it after 6 months is worse...

Edited by pinkimo
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pinkimo said:

I just can't play to a game I want badly to play and have paid full price because of something I couldn't even imagine possible, releasing a broken FFB on the one game which doesn't tolerate incomplete or broken FFB, your most simish game, while you release games with decent FFB since more than a decade and while DR1 FFB was ok. Having a broken/incomplete FFB on a sim (or simish) games is intolerable, not having fixed it after 6 months is worse...

Seems to me you have inappropriately high standards, and far too low a tolerance for anything that doesn't meet those standards. Saying you're "unable to play" and that the "FFB is broken" is just ridiculous. It's a rally simulator, not a steering wheel simulator; take a step back and look at the big picture, rather than hyperfocusing on one specific detail.

And before you jump on the "Codies shill/fanboy" bandwagon, I do think the FFB could do with some improvement, I don't think anyone will dispute that. It just gets tiresome to keep hearing the same old, frequently ill-informed, nonsense. Honestly, your first paragraph was fine, and I agree with what you said there, but the rest of it was just unhelpful ranting which reduces the likelihood of anyone taking notice of anything constructive you have to say.

Edited by caerphoto
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, caerphoto said:

Seems to me you have inappropriately high standards, and far too low a tolerance for anything that doesn't meet those standards. Saying you're "unable to play" and that the "FFB is broken" is just ridiculous. It's a rally simulator, not a steering wheel simulator; take a step back and look at the big picture, rather than hyperfocusing on one specific detail.

And before you jump on the "Codies shill/fanboy" bandwagon, I do think the FFB could do with some improvement, I don't think anyone will dispute that. It just gets tiresome to keep hearing the same old, frequently ill-informed, nonsense. Honestly, your first paragraph was fine, and I agree with what you said there, but the rest of it was just unhelpful ranting which reduces the likelihood of anyone taking notice of anything constructive you have to say.

I don't have high standards at all (in which world expecting a major base effect of the FFB to be there is having inappropriately high standards?), I don't expect rF2 level FFB, I even play to racing games without FFB, but with a simish gameplay which requires fast and precise reactions, having some of the main effects missing is very problematic, at least for some players. There is different ways our brain can manage our driving, we don't choose which way our brain uses and for many people driving in sims is based a lot on reacting to changes in the FFB, which means it's very disturbing and makes the driving a lot less fun (and effective) if an important effect is missing or broken. It doesn't mean at all that the FFB has to be fantastic, but it has to be complete and functional.

What is ridiculous and gets tiresome (and encourage me to complain even more) is that each time someone legitimately complain about those issues, while I always indicate some steps to prove/understand them, there is always people who can't accept that something which doesn't bother them exists and/or can be very annoying for others. You're happy with the current FFB, great, I'm happy for you, you're able to enjoy the game. So why can't you accept that some other people can't enjoy the game because of this issue? Why have you to reject this issue or its importance for some people and encourage codemasters to not fix it? Why do you put some efforts to ensure I (and many others) will never be able to enjoy the game by pushing the dev to not fix an issue just because this is not an issue for you? Will it break your enjoyment if they fix the FFB? You should listen your advice and take a step back.

It's a bit like the problem some FPS/TPS using stick emulation have with reverse mouse acceleration (faster you move the mouse, slower the camera moves). Without going into details, there is 2 different ways our brain manage the mouse in FPS/TPS, reverse mouse acceleration completely breaks one of them while it's not even noticable for many players using the other way, and some of them don't understand the issue and reject complaints of people complaining about reverse mouse acceleration.

 

Edited by pinkimo
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22 hours ago, pinkimo said:

I don't have high standards at all (in which world expecting a major base effect of the FFB to be there is having inappropriately high standards?), I don't expect rF2 level FFB, I even play to racing games without FFB, but with a simish gameplay which requires fast and precise reactions, having some of the main effects missing is very problematic, at least for some players. There is different ways our brain can manage our driving, we don't choose which way our brain uses and for many people driving in sims is based a lot on reacting to changes in the FFB, which means it's very disturbing and makes the driving a lot less fun (and effective) if an important effect is missing or broken. It doesn't mean at all that the FFB has to be fantastic, but it has to be complete and functional.

What is ridiculous and gets tiresome (and encourage me to complain even more) is that each time someone legitimately complain about those issues, while I always indicate some steps to prove/understand them, there is always people who can't accept that something which doesn't bother them exists and/or can be very annoying for others. You're happy with the current FFB, great, I'm happy for you, you're able to enjoy the game. So why can't you accept that some other people can't enjoy the game because of this issue? Why have you to reject this issue or its importance for some people and encourage codemasters to not fix it? Why do you put some efforts to ensure I (and many others) will never be able to enjoy the game by pushing the dev to not fix an issue just because this is not an issue for you? Will it break your enjoyment if they fix the FFB? You should listen your advice and take a step back.

It's a bit like the problem some FPS/TPS using stick emulation have with reverse mouse acceleration (faster you move the mouse, slower the camera moves). Without going into details, there is 2 different ways our brain manage the mouse in FPS/TPS, reverse mouse acceleration completely breaks one of them while it's not even noticable for many players using the other way, and some of them don't understand the issue and reject complaints of people complaining about reverse mouse acceleration.

 

This is a bug thread and moaning should be kept to a minimum. If you want to see change, dont try to bash CM, just state what improvements you would like to see/feel in the FFB and leave it there. Your moaning will only help to loose the interest of the developers, in even considering giving us another update. So try to keep it a little more positive please.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mattshep said:

Your moaning will only help to loose the interest of the developers, in even considering giving us another update. So try to keep it a little more positive please

I don't think one, two or even 10 moaning forum members (I don't think pinkimo is moaning btw) affects any of CM decisions. There is ROI behind it and nothing more. If ROI justify further investments, we will see improvements. If not - we won't.
So please stop pursuing CM customers who express their stand. In fact, seeing a quality of DR2 half year after a release, is nothing unobvious to face disappointed
 

Edited by MaXyMsrpl
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Hello, I play dirt rally 2.0 with a fanatec DD1 on XBox One. 
On XBox One we do not have "wheel friction" and "tyre friction" lines. In addition I think I notice a lack of significant feeling on the asphalt, 
we do not feel the road on this surface as if the car floated. I hope an update for this problem because it really ruins the pleasure of playing.

Thank you

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On 8/11/2019 at 2:54 PM, Yanintrus66 said:

Hello, I play dirt rally 2.0 with a fanatec DD1 on XBox One. 
On XBox One we do not have "wheel friction" and "tyre friction" lines. In addition I think I notice a lack of significant feeling on the asphalt, 
we do not feel the road on this surface as if the car floated. I hope an update for this problem because it really ruins the pleasure of playing.

Thank you

DD1 on xbone1, Wow!

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Not sure why they always tell the people they will improve it - they are not able or willing to understand what people like to have - it's quite simple bring back the FFB of DR1. For my Simucube 1 OSW wheel FFB still is far from Dirt Rally (no feel of tyre slip on esp. hard to know what your car is doing when on loose surface as guessing isn't making you faster) and I know that I will never buy any game from CM in the future! They were not able to deliver a Dirt 4 that met my expectations and now with Dirt Rally 2 it's the same, although the reasons for the imho epic fails are different for both games.
I hope that other companies will manage to support any combination of wheels, pedals and controllers (the biggest issue with WRC7 I heard) - as long as this isn't the case I will stay with DR1 ...

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On 8/9/2019 at 6:43 AM, pinkimo said:

You all talk about Tyre Split and Engine Torque, but the main missing effect for wheels, the one which have an active slider which does nothing, is Tire Friction (Tire Slip too but it's kind of a part of tire friction, I don't know if it deserves a separate slider or if it's just a different name designated for a limited rumble effect for controlers). It's because of the lack of this effect that we can't feel at all tires lock under braking or tires spin when exiting a corner on dirt for example, so we can't feel if we put too much throttle on turn exit on dirt and can't manage the throttle through the FFB to keep it on edge, we just understand we put too much throttle by seeing the line widening, which is far from ideal. A good test to understand that is to make tires spin at the start with a powerful car, the engine will rev high, the car will barely move, and you'll feel absolutely nothing in the wheel, nothing telling you the tires are spinning.

There is other problems with the FFB (weight transfer, the ones you listed...), but tire friction is the one effect which needs absolutely to be fixed to stop the FFB from messing up the driving and the enjoyment of some of the players (at least the one which drive based on the FFB).

As of the Engine Torque, we feel the rumble in the vibration motors which are in Fantatec's wheels. I've not checked if it's the gamepad effect which is linked to the grayed Engine Torque slider or if it's not linked to a slider and can be toned down only from the onwheel SHO setting.

It's quite unbelievable that after 6 months, a company which develop FFB since 20 years (I recently tried the first CMR on PC, it had (very poor) FFB) seems unable to understand some very obvious problems, or try to make people think there is no problem. After all, the community managers say since 5 months they are working hard on the FFB and it took 3-4 months to make a very minor fix (tweaking a multiplier, pretty much what we could do by tweaking an XML file since day one, just applied to the suspension effect only instead of the whole FFB in the XML file, a very minor fix compared to the implementation of a missing effect, which shows they were not really working on the FFB, even this minor fix wasn't ready for the 1.4 and they had to release a 1.4.1 for it), but the communication said it was a big fix when it has been released, trying to make people think it required a lot of work. Seriously, it was a fu... multiplier which should have been fixed on the first week...

In fact, it's quite unbelievable the FFB has been released like that, it's quite unbelievable the 1.4.1 minor fix has not been released in the first post release patch, it's quite unbelievable that the missing effects have not been added in the first month, it's quite unbelievable that the communication of CM seems to be quite the opposite of what they are really doing. And it's the same thing with many other problems/bugs.

The only vaguely logical explanation I see is that they were/are crunching on F1 2019 and GRID and, to release them in a better shape than DR2, took the decision to sacrifice DR2 by spending as little resources as possible fixing bugs (but still a bit to release patches and be able to say they are working hard on it, but those patches contain mostly minor or unfinished/defective fixes or at least not much compared to the time they took to be released) but communicate like if they were working hard on fixing bugs as damage control.

I almost never buy games day 1, I did it this time, missleaded by pre-release reviewers which reported nothing about the FFB, and since 6 months, I just can't play to a game I want badly to play and have paid full price because of something I couldn't even imagine possible, releasing a broken FFB on the one game which doesn't tolerate incomplete or broken FFB, your most simish game, while you release games with decent FFB since more than a decade and while DR1 FFB was ok. Having a broken/incomplete FFB on a sim (or simish) game is intolerable, not having fixed it after 6 months is worse...

I bet you $100 if I put you in a car without ABS, and blocked off your hearing, had you lock up , you couldn't tell me which tyre locked up.  Also, you probably couldn't even tell if you had locked up or not especially in a straight line.  What you're requesting is an aid , not a realism feature.    In terms of both front tyres slipping, the effect exists especially on ice, there might be some very fine changes needed to affect wheel forces when you lock both fronts in conditions other than ice, but not much.

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