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I have decided, that I hate DRS.

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Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

Oh come on, you actually believe this bullshit? FOM officially considered to introduce sparks because of the show. Later Charlie came up with this bullshit safety reasons only because they recognized once more that F1 is just show MOD EDIT: LANGUAGE today.

As for DRS: I rather take one single real overtake than this DRS fake overtaking crap.
Where are the times when an overtake was really about the skills of the drivers like Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher? "Line him up for the pass" had a meaning back then.

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Ricciardo at Monza 2014. Watch that race at all?
Silverstone 2014 Vettel vs Alonso
Bahrain 2014 Hamilton vs Rosberg
Hungary 2014 Ricciardo Alonso Hamilton
And in 2013 we had Perez and Sutil in Monaco
Vettel vs Webber in Malaysia and alot of others.

If you watch F1 you will realise DRS zones enable cars to get closer to each other to make overtaking moves not always DRS is how they overtake.

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Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

Oh come on, you actually believe this bullshit? FOM officially considered to introduce sparks because of the show. Later Charlie came up with this bullshit safety reasons only because they recognized once more that F1 is just show bullshit today.

As for DRS: I rather take one single real overtake than this DRS fake overtaking crap.
Where are the times when an overtake was really about the skills of the drivers like Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher? "Line him up for the pass" had a meaning back then.

Given the choice between believing a statement from Charlie Whiting or you, you can guess who I'll choose.

A 'real' overtake as you call it, almost always required the following car to be 2 second a lap faster, so it hardly had meaning. Oh well done, the faster car overtook and disappeared into the distance.

The Schumacher era was some of the dullest racing in decades. Something had to be done. Im glad we no longer have 'the skills' of relying on traction control, active suspension etc. 

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I've deleted the posts containing the fight. Come on lads, refrain from insulting each other. I've also edited posts with foul language in, it won't be tolerated.

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fIsince08 said:
I've deleted the posts containing the fight. Come on lads, refrain from insulting each other. I've also edited posts with foul language in, it won't be tolerated.
You showed up just in time, I was just about to get myself banned lol >.>

Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

There was plenty of passing before the days of DRS. 

Perhaps they won't be able to 'fix' the cars so that passing is real again. So if that is the case then I think the distance should be reduced or DRS zones nees a massive over haul. You shouldn't be able to pull over half a second a lap on someone and have it erased in the drs zone.

In the games, it could maybe just use a tweak so the AI doesn't blow your doors off so to speak, just because they hit DRS, and then holding you up for the next lap or two. Or so they don't get in sets of two and drive away from everyone else purely because of DRS.

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Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

Oh come on, you actually believe this bullshit? FOM officially considered to introduce sparks because of the show. Later Charlie came up with this bullshit safety reasons only because they recognized once more that F1 is just show bullshit today.

As for DRS: I rather take one single real overtake than this DRS fake overtaking crap.
Where are the times when an overtake was really about the skills of the drivers like Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher? "Line him up for the pass" had a meaning back then.

A 'real' overtake as you call it, almost always required the following car to be 2 second a lap faster, so it hardly had meaning. Oh well done, the faster car overtook and disappeared into the distance.
One dear, this is just ... ridiculous.

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Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

Oh come on, you actually believe this bullshit? FOM officially considered to introduce sparks because of the show. Later Charlie came up with this bullshit safety reasons only because they recognized once more that F1 is just show bullshit today.

As for DRS: I rather take one single real overtake than this DRS fake overtaking crap.
Where are the times when an overtake was really about the skills of the drivers like Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher? "Line him up for the pass" had a meaning back then.

A 'real' overtake as you call it, almost always required the following car to be 2 second a lap faster, so it hardly had meaning. Oh well done, the faster car overtook and disappeared into the distance.
One dear, this is just ... ridiculous.
What, you shouldn't have to be faster to pass :p

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Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:
Moggie16 said:
Tourgott said:

Because they are artificial and just introduced for the show which is ridiculous for serious motorsport (exactly like DRS, fuel and tyre saving).

Actually, no. They were not 'just introduced for the show', they were introduced because of safety concerns about the heavy metals previously being used and to force teams to run higher ride heights to manage plank wear. I don't remember people complaining about F1 being fake last time titanium skid blocks were used (pre 1994)!

Also, DRS has never been about creating an easy overtake. We all want to see cars pulling 5g round corners but the consequence of that is it's nearly impossible to closely follow the car in front. When DRS is applied correctly, it gives the following driver a fighting chance of getting into the breaking zone to challenge for position. Without it the following car would need to be 2+ seconds a lap faster to attempt a move.

Admittedly, at some circuits it is applied better than others, but since the DRS zones are determined before the cars hit the track it’s a bit of a guessing game where the correct placement should be.

Oh come on, you actually believe this bullshit? FOM officially considered to introduce sparks because of the show. Later Charlie came up with this bullshit safety reasons only because they recognized once more that F1 is just show bullshit today.

As for DRS: I rather take one single real overtake than this DRS fake overtaking crap.
Where are the times when an overtake was really about the skills of the drivers like Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher? "Line him up for the pass" had a meaning back then.

A 'real' overtake as you call it, almost always required the following car to be 2 second a lap faster, so it hardly had meaning. Oh well done, the faster car overtook and disappeared into the distance.
One dear, this is just ... ridiculous.
What, you shouldn't have to be faster to pass :p
Nope. You should just be able to push a button correctly :D
That's what Senna said already: 
"And if you no longer go for a chance to push the button, you are no longer a racing driver"

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Tourgott - Let’s say you get your wish and DRS is banned.

Overtaking virtually stops as cars can’t get close enough to attempt a move.

Cars finish the race in much the same order they qualified.

Millions stop watching the new processional F1.

 

This is exactly what happened from late 90s’ to 2010, some seasons being worse than others.  As a purist I’m sure you’d love the idea, but how long until you too are complaining that F1 is boring as everyone just overtakes during pit stops or on the first lap?

 

Until a better solution comes along, F1 is better for having DRS.  It’s not perfect, but it’s far better than racing without it considering modern F1 cars aerodynamic sensitivity.

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So how about the 50 or so years of F1 prior?  Was there no passing ever because there was no DRS? And how did it survive with any fans at all running so long without DRS? Why do other racing series survive without DRS? 

If you think F1 popularity rest with DRS and fake passes, you've lost your mind, or are very young. 


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Moggie16 said:

Tourgott - Let’s say you get your wish and DRS is banned.

Overtaking virtually stops as cars can’t get close enough to attempt a move.

Cars finish the race in much the same order they qualified.

Millions stop watching the new processional F1.

 

This is exactly what happened from late 90s’ to 2010, some seasons being worse than others.  As a purist I’m sure you’d love the idea, but how long until you too are complaining that F1 is boring as everyone just overtakes during pit stops or on the first lap?

 

Until a better solution comes along, F1 is better for having DRS.  It’s not perfect, but it’s far better than racing without it considering modern F1 cars aerodynamic sensitivity.

Your arguments are as fake as DRS is.

- Overtaking would not stop. This is just rubbish. There were awesome overtakes 60 years in F1 history without DRS. 

- Cars will not finish in the same order, the bullshit V6 will prevent this when all Renault's go boom.

- Millions already stopped watching because of the **** V6. TV figures dropped 2014 and still dropping dramatically 2015.

Really? Language again?

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DRS is always going to cause a divide.

Doesn't it sound though that without DRS it's hard to follow cars directly and not get close? I think without DRS you will see cars a bit like a repelling magnet. Get so far but unable to get close. This is because of the air coming off the first car. As Brundle has said in comms there is a lot of work done via the front wing to work the air. 

We have seen pre Pirelli and a DRS that overtaking was at a mimimum not completely gone but significantly reduced. 

Comparing overtaking to to even the 90's is a bit pointless as the cars are different then and now. 

Currently DRS provides an overtaking solution but it's the car design that's causing the problem. 



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Why are you guys talking about 50 years ago? You do realise there was no aero on the cars back then dont you? Im no F1 expert but watched for 22 years and havent missed a session in about 6 years so know a little. For starters the amount of aero on a F1 car is the biggest problem when it comes to overtaking as the dirty air coming of the lead car is messing with the aero of the second car therefore he has less df and the tyres start overheating as they under/oversteer alot more, dont forget the hot air coming of the car is making the other car overheat its engine and breaks also. The gap between some teams is so little now (3th tenth in quali between 10 cars sometimes) it would be almost impossible to get close to the car ahead without drs on some tracks now. I watch alot of the classic races on sky and 90% of the races there is 3 overtakes on track if your lucky, most were done in the pit back then as no one could get much closer than a second without suffering turbulant air. This year imo the cars look alot harder to follow than the last few years as most of the moves I remember have been drs assisted and no one is really able to follow that closely to one another and make a move. I personally hate to see drs opened and car 2 is past half way down the straight but I think without drs F1 would be alot more boring than it is at the moment.

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Wow, people are so hostile here.

 

I referenced a very specific era (late 90s’ to 2010) for a reason.  Before this cars were significantly less aerodynamically sensitive and could follow each other much closer through corners, thereby assisting overtaking.  If you want to revert back to the 1950s’-1980’s that’s great, there was some awesome racing, but you’ll have a hard time explaining to people why F1 is so much slower than GP2.  Modern F1 is much faster than the F1 of 30 years ago, however it is the way that speed is achieved (aerodynamically) that is the problem with overtaking.

 

I also said, “Until a better solution comes along”, if you have a better solution then great, lets here it.  The dependency on aerodynamic performance is this problem; its’ no good blindly saying ‘get rid of DRS because in the 80’s racing was great and they didn’t have it then’.

 

What’s funny is I’m not even a fan of DRS; it’s a plaster on a bleeding wound, but I’m not so naïve that I think getting rid of it will improve F1 without addressing the source of the problem.

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I'd be willing to comprise with a change to DRS rules, if it absolutly must stay. Change the rule so you must have had a faster lap time the previous lap for DRS to be activated (along with the current 1second rule). That way you don't get the passes that results in someone being held up. Or these fake 'battles'.

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Well that's 5 people so far that admit they don't like actual racing and just want to see passing. Why don't you 5 just go sit by the highway. Plenty of passing there.

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I think they should adjust the time for the drs detection to 0.5 secs. it was meant to enable the car following to pull up alongside the car in front and fight it out in the braking zone but with most drs overtakes on long straights like in Bahrain the pass was done half way down the straight and sometimes from a very long way behind where you wouldn't expect a car to be challenging from that far back. I am pretty surprised it has not evolved and been refined for a season or 2. All in all its a great addition to F1 and should not be removed.

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Well that's 5 people so far that admit they don't like actual racing and just want to see passing. Why don't you 5 just go sit by the highway. Plenty of passing there.
  Just saw a bus use drs on a lorry, what a move :)

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Half a second just wouldn't cut it I don't think. The cars wouldn't get close enough. You see now sometimes it takes a couple of DRS zones to get close to an overtake. 

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Half a second just wouldn't cut it I don't think. The cars wouldn't get close enough. You see now sometimes it takes a couple of DRS zones to get close to an overtake. 

Agreed I think the teams would have thought all about this before DRS was brought in that's probably why they settled on the 1 sec gap between the cars. Personally I'm neutral as I don't mind it as I think it has helped the racing be a bit more open but I can see why people don't like it.

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vtidixon said:

Well that's 5 people so far that admit they don't like actual racing and just want to see passing. Why don't you 5 just go sit by the highway. Plenty of passing there.
  Just saw a bus use drs on a lorry, what a move :)


LAD

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Not sure why this is in Off Topic now, but figure I might as well have my say :p 

I'm not really a fan of DRS at all. At least not in real F1 anyway. In the games it's kinda entertaining to use, but in actual F1 I just don't like how it makes it so easy for one car to just breeze right past another. It might have made some small amount of sense when it was introduced as the cars and lap times were closer and the field was tighter. But with the differences in engine performance we have at the moment I'm not so sure DRS is really needed at this stage.

And if it is, I'd like to see the flap opening reduced. So lets say the flap opens 100% atm, I'd like to see it down to 50% so that the speed differential isn't so big. Plus doing that doesn't change the rules of it's use in a confusing way while still making it a bit less effective.

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Yeah I'm not sure why it's been moved to off-topic either?! I think this probably now belongs in the Motorsport Discussion forum as the conversation topic is now on DRS and F1 itself and not the game.

I'll give my opinion on DRS soon... :p

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