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It's official. Car performance/ Team performance/ Driver performance will "currently" not be fixed in F1 2019!

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16 minutes ago, KulishS said:

Did same values. Now I'm fast as Merc while in Williams. :classic_blink:

I am not certain what 1.03 means? Can you give me a before and after I’m terms of values?

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1 hour ago, KulishS said:

Did same values. Now I'm fast as Merc while in Williams. :classic_blink:

To clarify Value * 1.03 was just an example, I don’t remember exactly what I multiplied with. I just wanted to note that one should multiple not add to get a correct relation with front/rear and highest/lowest downforce values. 

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49 minutes ago, ShelbyUSA said:

I am not certain what 1.03 means? Can you give me a before and after I’m terms of values?

See post above. It takes time to manually calculate 4 df values per team and is a bit tidius. 

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Well guys when you think of how good the game raced ,looked and sounded it certainly went downhill fast,

,it went from the best f1 sim to the worst arcade game faster then a drag car doing a quarter mile run,

a lot of the issuses are how bad the ffb is now as you can't tell how or what the car is doing for most wheel users,

with sadness our league will very soon swap over to pcars2 ,of which I had hundreds of hours testing and league racing with f1 games aswell,

i think I would be prepared to pay extra £20 to have codemasters just revert back to day one  release,

they are still bringing out patches for dirt rally 2.0 and you all know why they are replying back, Money.

so I will pay extra £20 just to have the brilliant ffb back along with the handling tyre physics,

i really really don't understand why anyone who runs a business would want to kill there golden goose in f12019,

because they have and they ain't going to fix it.

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17 hours ago, KrazyLurt said:

To clarify Value * 1.03 was just an example, I don’t remember exactly what I multiplied with. I just wanted to note that one should multiple not add to get a correct relation with front/rear and highest/lowest downforce values. 

Affirm. I multiplied Williams' value 1.7 by 1.3, so the value became 2.21, all other values were modified the same way. Handling-wise the car was felt unrealistically fast and planted apart high speed corners.) I believe it needs testing a lot. 

Edited by KulishS
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Gamepad playing or not, just because Kimi say's the game is not very good because he can't turn in to corners as he's accustomed to IRL or because he's not fast enough means nothing.  The cars can be made more pliable in the game as he suggests with setup tweaks.  A one time introduction to the game with critiques from KR is hardly call to start denigrading the game.  Verstappen a much better driver than KR had only smiles on his face when he first played the game. So did Sergio Perez. 

Edited by FOneFanatic

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14 minutes ago, FOneFanatic said:

Gamepad playing or not, just because Kimi say's the game is not very good because he's not fast enough means nothing.  The cars can be made more pliable in the game as he suggests with setup tweaks. 

Game lacks downforce by at least 20% - 30%.

 

You can't take many highspeed corners that are being driven flatout in real life the same way in the game, even with maximum aero settings of 11/11 wings, which has been talked about in this thread.

 

Car performance needs another tweaking to make them faster, especially around the corners.

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, SturmDesTodes said:

Game lacks downforce by at least 20% - 30%.

 

You can't take many highspeed corners that are being driven flatout in real life the same way in the game, even with maximum aero settings of 11/11 wings, which has been talked about in this thread.

 

Car performance needs another tweaking to make them faster, especially around the corners.

 

 

 

 

Is it actually downforce or simple mechanical grip they are missing? Cars should be able to go round fast corners anyway without much downforce. Isn't downforce more suited to tracks with many tight medium speed corners like Monaco and Singapore? Or maybe it's both mechanical grip and downforce they are missing. Either way with tons of tuning and tweaking in project cars 2 I know for a fact that the setups just don't do what they are supposed to do in the F1 games. It's like when you change the camber instead of actually changing the camber sim style with the car the game adds an EFFECT similar to what camber would expect to do without actually changing it. As all tuning is supposed to be harmonious with other aspects of the setup the creation of a false effect in isolation from other setup effects would definitely create a sense of weird unrealistic handling. The cars are not supposed to either stick like glue to the track or slide off. There is supposed to be a continuous gradient of grip loss until the car starts to slip which can be tuned to the drivers preference. In project cars I can tune open wheel cars to actually drift (kills tires but it's possible) and if I push the car too much I can feel the rear wheels stepping out too much without me spinning out. 

I couldn't possible call the F1 games a sim or even simlike. That's not a criticism in itself as I don't think they were designed to be and most of the customer base don't care. Maybe its just us wanting the gsme to more like a sim when it clearly is not that makes us want to criticize the game when it falls short of simlike behavior in so many ways. 

I mean.. If it doesn't walk like a duck or talk like a duck.... It most likely is NOT a duck! 

Edited by sloppysmusic
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5 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Is it actually downforce or simple mechanical grip they are missing? Cars should be able to go round fast corners anyway without much downforce. Isn't downforce more suited to tracks with many tight medium speed corners like Monaco and Singapore? Or maybe it's both mechanical grip and downforce they are missing. Either way with tons of tuning and tweaking in project cars 2 I know for a fact that the setups just don't do what they are supposed to do in the F1 games. It's like when you change the camber instead of actually changing the camber sim style with the car the game adds an EFFECT similar to what camber would expect to do without actually changing it. As all tuning is supposed to be harmonious with other aspects of the setup the creation of a false effect in isolation from other setup effects would definitely create a sense of weird unrealistic handling. The cars are not supposed to either stick like glue to the track or slide off. There is supposed to be a continuous gradient of grip loss until the car starts to slip which can be tuned to the drivers preference. In project cars I can tune open wheel cars to actually drift (kills tires but it's possible) and if I push the car too much I can feel the rear wheels stepping out too much without me spinning out. 

I couldn't possible call the F1 games a sim or even simlike. That's not a criticism in itself as I don't think they were designed to be and most of the customer base don't care. Maybe its just us wanting the gsme to more like a sim when it clearly is not that makes us want to criticize the game when it falls short of simlike behavior in so many ways. 

I mean.. If it doesn't walk like a duck or talk like a duck.... It most likely is NOT a duck! 

I basically agree with everything you said about the car setups. There is a reason for terms existing such as "suspension geometry" - it implies that all the components are interlinked and have an effect on each other.  There's none of that in the game currently.

As for downforce, you are on the wrong track. The effects of aerodynamics increase with velocity. The higher speed you are carrying through a corner, the more "grip" you are provided by the downforce of the car. There is a larger underpressure between the floor and the tarmac and thus the car is being "sucked" onto the road more effectively. That's why there are corners that aren't the fastest through the "ideal" racing line, but rather taken more on the outside, carrying more speed with the added traction from aerodynamics - such as Turn 2 in Hungary (although it's more like a medium than a high speed corner). That's why a track like Silverstone is a high downforce track even though a lot of it is flat out. Monaco and Singapore, but especially Monaco, are all about mechanical grip. Sure, the teams use maximum downforce in Monaco as it still helps a bit and doesn't do any harm because of the lack of straights, but mechanical grip makes the real difference. When going under 100km/h there's very little extra grip to be found by aero solutions.

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4 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Is it actually downforce or simple mechanical grip they are missing?

I don't think mechanical grip is the issue here, it seems to be spot on.

 

Tracks that rely on mechanical grip and not so much on high aero performance, such as China, Azerbaijan, Monaco, Canada, Italy, Singapore, were multiple seconds faster in the game compared to real life.

 

Meanwhile tracks that rely on a mix of mechanical grip as well as high aero performance, such as Spain, France, Austria, Britain, Hungary, Belgium, were either multiple seconds off the pace or only 2 - 5 tenths slower compared to the real deal.

 

Striking is the choice of setup the top drivers in the game have made, almost always topspeed and car stability were the prime goal they tried to achieve and not cornering speed.

 

This is particularly crazy as in real life the cars are set to create maximum cornering ability disregarding topspeed, only in Italy we have seen the cars with extremely low aero angles in real life to maximize topspeed.

 

4 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

setups just don't do what they are supposed to do in the F1 games

THIS.

 

3 hours ago, janbonator said:

There is a reason for terms existing such as "suspension geometry" - it implies that all the components are interlinked and have an effect on each other.  There's none of that in the game currently.

THIS.

 

3 hours ago, janbonator said:

When going under 100km/h there's very little extra grip to be found by aero solutions

Exactly, the issue lies within highspeed corners in the game imo.

 

Seeing from the rollercoaster trackrecord of this company, i sadly doubt this issue will be solved for F1 2019, and if at all, then "maybe" for the next title: F1 2020, which will be a shame.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SturmDesTodes
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I don't think they care much!

Faya tried, now gone. Is it convenience that no one is in that job now?

I just hope that when PC3 (or whatever it is called) has more than 12 months support from the devs...

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On 9/7/2019 at 10:33 PM, SturmDesTodes said:

Cars need at least 20% more downforce and at least 10% less drag.  

Codemasters do something.

Very interesting thread. I don't have F1 2019 and probably won't, because it's not worth buying, as I see.

But I have a question about F1 2017 and 2018. In general, I drive better in 2017 than 2018. In 2018 I have the impression of understeer, the car sliding on the track, it also easily falls into oversteer. Technically 2018 is a better game on the console, but in 2017 I have more fun and feel the car better. More intuitively. I drive without TC and ABS, I have a T150 steering wheel.

Do you think F1 2018 was an introduction to grip problems in F1 2019?

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On 9/23/2019 at 8:49 PM, SturmDesTodes said:

...

Striking is the choice of setup the top drivers in the game have made, almost always topspeed and car stability were the prime goal they tried to achieve and not cornering speed.

 

This is particularly crazy as in real life the cars are set to create maximum cornering ability disregarding topspeed, only in Italy we have seen the cars with extremely low aero angles in real life to maximize topspeed.

...

There's something inherently wrong with the aero model. I was tweaking my setup while trying to reach #1 in the e-sports qualifier (heavy rain, Japan). After I felt like the mechanical side was fine, I turned my attention to wing settings. Oh boy, oh boy. I won't put out details until the event is over, but I found more speed and consistency with an aero setup that made no sense for a wet Japan. Frankly, I'm not sure if the front wing even creates any meaningful downforce, just drag..

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On 10/1/2019 at 8:26 AM, janbonator said:

There's something inherently wrong with the aero model.

@janbonator

Yes.

 

On 10/1/2019 at 8:26 AM, janbonator said:

but I found more speed and consistency with an aero setup that made no sense for a wet Japan. Frankly, I'm not sure if the front wing even creates any

@janbonator

Let me guess:

 

The aero wing setup that should be realistic, with either high or medium angles for a wet aero demanding Japan, did not give enough advantage, but a low aero wing setup made you go almost around a second faster?

 

On 9/23/2019 at 4:17 PM, SturmDesTodes said:

Any news?

@RedDevilKT

@Hoo

1. Any news about the topic of this thread?

 

2. Will the car performance be tweaked again to give us more downforce and less drag?

 

At the moment the cars are too slow in corners that require aero efficiency.

 

If we use higher aero setups to be just as fast around the corners as in real life, we lose a lot of time in the straights, but this is completely wrong performance wise if compared to real life, as the real cars are extremely fast in the corners and have slow topspeed with a extremely fast acceleration to reach the 300kmh barrier as fast as possible.

 

Especially on tracks with lots of aero demanding corners, such as Spain, we can see a negative trend, even the fastest E-Sports drivers are at least a whole 1 second down to real life lap times and need to lift the throttle at Turn 9, whereas in reality that corner is flatout.

 

Cars need to be much faster in aero demanding corners.

 

We need to be able to close that 1 second gap.

 

The cars downforce and drag levels need to be adjusted to the point where we can be another 1 - 1,5 seconds faster to what the cars are able to do after the 1.05 patch dropped.

 

3. If the issue of this thread, "rebalance for the lack of downforce / too much drag", is not on your current roadmap of fixes and updates for the next couple of patches, could you please at least let us know so that we don't have to keep on posting on here whilst spinning in circles?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SturmDesTodes said:

 

@janbonator

Let me guess:

 

The aero wing setup that should be realistic, with either high or medium angles for a wet aero demanding Japan, did not give enough advantage, but a low aero wing setup made you go almost around a second faster?

You are on point as usual. In wet conditions the rear aero has a very noticeable effect in car handling, where as I find it very hard to justify myself why I should add any front wing angle - even though a track like Suzuka demands a good front-end. In terms of lap time advantage it is quite hard to determine the exact time gain because of so many variables, such as having to overtake other cars.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, janbonator said:

In wet conditions the rear aero has a very noticeable effect in car handling, where as I find it very hard to justify myself why I should add any front wing angle - even though a track like Suzuka demands a good front-end.

Exactly, i do the same, run lower front end and go for topspeed.

 

Because at the moment the game penalizes medium or high sero setups with drag and not enough downforce, even the highest aero setup of 11/11 is not enough for certain tracks to be able to take corners that are flatout in real life at the appropriate speed.

 

Quite frustrating.

Edited by SturmDesTodes
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21 minutes ago, SturmDesTodes said:

Exactly, i do the same, run lower front end and go for topspeed.

 

Because at the moment the game penalizes medium or high sero setups with drag and even the highest aero setup of 11/11 is not enough for certain tracks to be able to take corners that are flatout in real life at the appropriate speed.

 

Quite frustrating.

I can't remember which patch it was, but in the one in which the aerodynamics of the cars were changed, something went wrong. Looking at the Time Trial leaderboards, one can immediately see that on some tracks (Spa and Suzuka come to mind), the fastest times were set with pre-patch cars/physics. It doesn't make sense. Downforce was (supposedly) added to the cars and they became slower.

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Posted (edited)

Here's the setup i created for the Russian GP to replicate both the topspeed as well as the cornering speed as close as possible to real life.

 

Russian GP.

Real life stats.

Topspeed: 328kmh - 314kmh.

Cornering Speed Turn 8: 200kmh - 180kmh.

 

Car setup.

Aerodynamics: 9/8

Transmission: 80/60

Suspension Geometry: -2.8,-1.4,0.11,0.44

Suspension: 4/5/5/6/1/2

Brakes: 92/56

Tyres: 23.8/21.1

 

My issue with this setup is the fact that the teams in real life do not use High Aero Setups for Russia, Medium Aero Setups are more common in reality, so the current high aero efficiency value of 9/8 should be available at 7/6, 6/5 or even 5/4 wings in the game.

 

Drag level at 9/8 is almost similar to the acceleration and topspeed of real life, but the problem is that it's not reaching the 300kmh barrier as fast as in real life and should be synchronized to the proposed 7/6, 6/5 or even 5/4 wing setup.

 

Also, both the AI as well as the players run much lower aero car setups, top players use 6/4 or even 3/5 for maximum topspeed, so using the high aero setup above, 9/8, is giving us a disadvantage even though it is extremely close to real life performance.

 

Issues that need fixing:

-Not enogh downforce (we need at least 20% more downforce)

-Too much drag (we need at least 5% less drag)

 

 

 

 

Edited by SturmDesTodes
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@SturmDesTodes are you saying (and I have a horrible feeling that you are) that aero settings in the game have zero affect on downforce at all? Instead they just add drag = slowing the car down so that you HAVE to take the corners slower giving the EFFECT of downforce but not simulating it at all? If so I suspect other setup choices are using similar handling 'shortcuts'. For example camber and toe in affect cornering and straight line acceleration in real life, in inverse proportion to each other. Meaning as one gets better the other gets worse. Does the game literally have zero camber and toein simulation instead just giving you more grip round corners and once again more or less speed (drag?!) on straights? From the way the 'tuning' affects the actual handling of the car in game that would all make perfect sense now albeit very depressing reading... 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

are you saying (and I have a horrible feeling that you are) that aero settings in the game have zero affect on downforce at all? Instead they just add drag = slowing the car down so that you HAVE to take the corners slower giving the EFFECT of downforce but not simulating it at all?

No, the cars do have downforce, but definitely not enough.

 

Here's a example at Spain to showcase that.

 

Standard Setup i use to take Turn 9 flatout (flatout for around 8 out of 10 times as long as i drive in the perfect line) at around a median speed of 263kmh - 258kmh (which is still a bit slower than real life in the Mercedes which was around 266kmh).

 

Front Wing: 11

Rear Wing: 11 

Diff. On: 50% 

Diff. Off: 60% 

Front Camber: -2.8 

Rear Camber: -2 

Front Toe: 0.05 

Rear Toe: 0.2

Front Suspension: 7 

Rear Suspension: 5 

Front ARB: 9 

Rear ARB: 11 

Front Ride Height: 3 

Rear Ride Height: 5 

Brake Pressure: 92% 

Brake Bias: 56% 

Front Tyre: 21psi 

Rear Tyre: 19.5psi 

 

Now i will list down the difference in median speed around Turn 9 with different aero wing setups than 11/11 (reminder, real life Turn 9 was 266kmh and easily flatout with no exaggerated over- or understeer):

 

10/10 = 262kmh - 258kmh (can take the corner flatout but not at a consistent rate anymore, only 5 out of 10 times)

9/9 = 260kmh - 256kmh (can take the corner flatout but not at a consistent rate anymore, only 3 out of 10 times)

8/8 = 253kmh - 248kmh (this is the point where i can't take the corner flatout anymore, need to lift to get around the corner)

7/7 = 251kmh - 244kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

6/6 = 248kmh -242kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

5/5 = 244kmh - 239kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

4/4 = 243kmh -237kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

3/3 = 240kmh - 234kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

2/2 = 238kmh / 233kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

1/1 = 236kmh / 231kmh (have to lift off the throttle around Turn9)

 

Topspeed right before Turn 1 braking point is the grey tarmac at the left side right before the 50m board (reminder, topseed at the braking point of Turn 1 in real life was 319kmh) & topspeed at the start finish line (reminder, topspeed at the start finish line in real life was 292kmh):

 

11/11 = 312kmh at the braking point / 285kmh at the start finish line

10/10 = 315kmh at the braking point / 288kmh at the start finish line

9/9 = 319kmh at the braking point / 290kmh at the start finish line

8/8 = 322kmh at the braking point / 292kmh at the start finish line

7/7 = 325kmh at the braking point / 294kmh at the start finish line

6/6 = 328kmh at the braking point / 296kmh at the start finish line

5/5 = 330kmh at the braking point / 296kmh at the start finish line

4/4 = 332kmh at the braking point / 297kmh at the start finish line

3/3 = 334kmh at the braking point / 298kmh at the start finish line

2/2 = 335kmh at the braking point / 298kmh at the start finish line

1/1 = 337kmh at the braking point / 298kmh at the start finish line

 

Conclusion:

Codemasters only need to...

 

...increase downforce by at least 20%, meaning the current downforce performance at 11/11 should be available at 7/7 or 8/8 or at least 9/9 wings whilst making 11/11 even stronger for downforce itself...

 

...decrease drag by at least 5%, meaning that the acceleration should be made faster whilst keeping topspeed low.

 

5 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

I suspect other setup choices are using similar handling 'shortcuts'. For example camber and toe in affect cornering and straight line acceleration in real life, in inverse proportion to each other. Meaning as one gets better the other gets worse. Does the game literally have zero camber and toein simulation instead just giving you more grip round corners and once again more or less speed (drag?!) on straights? From the way the 'tuning' affects the actual handling of the car in game that would all make perfect sense now albeit very depressing reading... 

Imo downforce is properly simulated, but out of synchronisation to where it should be (i suspect around 20% less powerful at the moment), but camber and toe certainly are not doing what they are supposed to, as you said it's either grip or speed with the suspension geometry.

 

If CM actually managed to create a similar in depth car setup menu and physics as in proper simulators, all this issue with setting up the car would be less frustating, and casuals could get a interactive tutorial mode and proper preset car setups that are realistically build upon each individual tracks characteristics to choose from, many creative solutions are available to balance this small issue out.

 

Either way, the lack of downforce would still be an issue regardless.

 

Maybe CM don't want to speak up on this subject because of R&D progression in career mode and because most people don't care whether or not the cars are 100% accurately performing in the game compared to real life?

 

Guess i'll just finish up the mod my pals and i were working on over the past 2 weeks and boot up GP4, F1 Challenge 99-02, F1 2012, Assetto Corsa, iRacing and rFactor, those games either already perfectly mimic real life performance and or can easily be modded to adjust.

 

Really sad to see that Codemasters refuse to fix the game themselves, even though it does not take a lot of effort to do so for this particular issue of car performance.

 

2019 season cars are in the officially licenced 2019 F1 game, but the car performance is off, GG Codemasters, well played.

 

 

 

Edited by SturmDesTodes
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@SturmDesTodes that was a very well written and explained post! Nailed the tuning issues right on the head. How hard can it BE to add 20% more downforce?! I mean nobody will complain. Us simmers will love it and casuals will love being able to go round corners faster too! I remember the first lap I did in the beta round China I was stunned at not being able to go flat out during THAT corner....! 

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11 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

How hard can it BE to add 20% more downforce?! I mean nobody will complain. Us simmers will love it and casuals will love being able to go round corners faster too!

Yes, 100%. It'd be a win - win situation for all.

 

12 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

I remember the first lap I did in the beta round China I was stunned at not being able to go flat out during THAT corner....! 

Do you still remember?

 

Codemasters did come up with the story that they did not anticipate the cars to be that fast and believed the performance to be 1,5 seconds slower than 2018.

 

Imo, it was a poor excuse because at the time of release of the game the 2019 season was already running and we were able to see multiple GP weekends that proved how insanely fast the 2019 cars actually turned out to be.

 

No idea what CM were thinking.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just to add my $0.02 worth, As a long time F1 fan that's new to the game, I found it strange to need to slightly lift for some corners that I've known to be flat IRL. I attributed it to a lack of proper setup, but also needed to use those setups to qualify well. So, there was something not quite adding up. This thread explains a lot. 

here's a question for those of you that are experienced in the past several year's versions: If I we were planning on exclusively racing in GP or career mode for the next couple months, would any of you recommend reinstalling the game and not uploading the updates? 

Or, would any of you recommend a buying a cheap, used copy of F1 2018 for the same purpose? 

Edited by Gr8_Lakes
Grammar correction
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