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Track Limits in DiRT World Series

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Argentina Update:

These are the 3 "major" cuts I have determined so far with the upcoming WC stage. I will also be adding them to the main post. These aren't too terrible, and I am still trying to make 100% sure there are no crazy cuts that ignore entire splits - but luckily most of them seem to be covered by reset boundaries. Only thing I still have left to try is going fast enough to jump over all of the rocks/people without getting reset...

Argentina Cut #1

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Argentina Cut #2

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Argentina Cut #3
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So while practicing for the upcoming qualifier, we have slowly been enlightened about how egregious a few of the cuts are. They are so bad that we need to have CM address these cuts. We need a clear answer whether or not these cuts will disqualify drivers in the Qualifier or if these cuts are now a requirement for everyone to use.

There are 4 major cuts I want to initially address, some much much worse than others. The first, is the tree cut - you split the trees after the double 1R over bridge to keep the car in 3rd gear and carrying more exit speed. This one is dirty, but it is honestly the least of my concerns.

CUT #1

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The next is the worst of the bunch - the "digging up potatoes in the field" cut. This one blatantly ignores all track limits, dodges two corners, and gives you insane exit speed on what should be a square left. This cut has at least 3 seconds in it, and if this one isn't a DQ cut then the entire integrity of this WC is lost. Video as well - https://clips.twitch.tv/SplendidKawaiiMonkeyBIRB

CUT #2

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The next two are more well known cuts, the standard haybale cuts. Easily a half second in each of them, maybe even more if you can get your lines right. They happen right at the very end of the stage, and again blatantly are ignoring track limits.

CUT #3

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CUT #4

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And the overhead view with each corner marked with entry/exit points for the cuts.

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So we need an official statement on this. As a community these are serious issues that we need clear guidance on so that EVERYONE here is on equal footing come the 10th. The last thing we want to see are fast drivers losing out to people who are willing to take the dirtiest of cuts in Qualifiers, only to be forced to watch these cheaters drive slower than most of us in the actual quarter/semi/finals when they are under the microscope. If you are not going to do anything about these cuts in Qualifiers, then say it so the rest of us know that cuts are required.

I hate to do it and be that guy, but I'm tagging CM on this one. We need answers. @PJTierney @Skiddyboy13 @CM_Ads

Edited by Mike Dee
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Yes, this is a very hot subject that has been discussed for quite a while now. There needs to be a policy regarding these cuts. This is not about how we can tackle these cuts, because there are several ways to do it: applying penalty times, making the offroad terrain have more attriction and slippery, whatever works.

Since this cannot be done in time for the qualifiers, i would suggest using the already implemented ghost technology to check top times and see if people are using cuts.

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Bumping this for fairness and prosperity. If no fix can be applied before the competition a policy definitely needs to be put out there regardless of the decision.

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2 minutes ago, Aurora92 said:

Bumping this for fairness and prosperity. If no fix can be applied before the competition a policy definitely needs to be put out there regardless of the decision.

That's all I want. I don't expect a fix for this in time, that'd be an insanely tight timeline to pull off.

BUT, we can definitely define a policy for it. I'm sure CM has the ability to review runs and can rewatch the ghosts. I'd be ok with a policy as simple as "all qualifying runs will be reviewed for integrity before being approved" or something. Just be very upfront with what will and what won't be happening with these runs. Last thing we all want is to have scrutiny only applied to the finals...

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Wow, I wasn't aware of the fact that you can cut half the stage off. It really takes a lot of 'creativity' to even consider and try cutting so much. Tree cut? I was even feeling bad for eating too much of that bit of grass to the left of the tree! 

The 'potatoes cut' is an astronomic one. No point in doing any TT there at the moment tbf. 

Codies need to address this or at least give us a free John Deere livery! ^^

 

 

 

Edited by richie
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So a few more questions, some cuts, some wides:

Wide 1:  4 wheels off road allowed?

wide1.thumb.png.bdca23936f438438f92fa9bc946a1dc5.png

 

Wide 2: 4 wheels off road allowed?

wide2.thumb.png.4932744cace47c6dbe6804a559091719.png

 

Cut 5: 4 wheels off road allowed?

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Cut 6: allowed?

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Cut 7: allowed?

cut1.thumb.png.3a24d8b0acb173276afb9ef254fce808.png

 

Also if a cut is not allowed, are you imposing a 10s/5s time penalty or DQing a run?

Edited by bn880
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This posts shows it all clearly. It is extremely important for us to know if these cuts are allowed before the event begins. Because if no one will be enforcing not taking these cuts why would I run a clean perfect stage only to be beaten by an scrappy run with outrageous cuts? At the end of the day it is a competition with prizes on the line and surely people will do everything allowed to gain an advantage and that's why it must be talked about and not ignored. 

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1 minute ago, CrazyNevada said:

Bump, the situation really needs to be clarified before the qualifier starts. 

Yeah the situation honestly needs to be clarified ASAP, because people are putting in time practicing/memorizing the stages already.

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ah @bn880 thanks for grabbing those "floats" and wides. I tried to focus on the most obvious major ones, but those wide exits into the fields can seriously add up too - especially when the hardest part about these FWD is keeping it as close to redline as possible. I think the 4 wheel off in the straight line (cut 6) is dirty but not terrible? Reminds me of some of the old McRae cuts. 

 

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Yeah I dont mind cut 5 , cut 6  nor the wides I showed.   But we need this clarified.  (I do mind cut 7 a lot)

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At the end CM should go down the leaderboard, and first entry with a valid replay wins the qualifier.

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25 minutes ago, bn880 said:

Cut 8: allowed?

1804115755_cut8.thumb.png.d4c04526e25dff869144d644d45ed994.png

I don't think this one's a problem as the risk of unsettling the car is too high imo. I use to take this like a higher kerb with only 2 wheels on it and it feels like a risk already. 

I think Poland is a fun location but it appears there's too much room for cutting and extending in all nuances of severity, from haybale cuts or cut 6 and gain 0.2 seconds to going full farming, harvest some vegetables and gain up to 5 seconds. It's one of the worst in that regard, it has to be a nightmare to monitor. 

Edited by richie
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Thanks for the feedback, I'll pass it on and if we have anything to say on the matter we'll update.

For now, refer to the official documentation and play accordingly.

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wow wait a second @bn880 if cut #7 works the way I think it does that is a serious issue. That means you can take the entire thing from the starting line to cut #8 flatout and ignore cut #8 if the haybale cut works there too...

 

That is easily 1+ seconds on that

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Yeah it might work like that @Mike Dee, I didn't really try optimizing the #7 cut myself... not my cup of tea even in the rare chance if it means I don't qualify ONLY due to it.

Edited by bn880
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55 minutes ago, bn880 said:

Yeah it might work like that @Mike Dee, I didn't really try optimizing the #7 cut myself... not my cup of tea even in the rare chance if it means I don't qualify ONLY due to it.

I don't like trying to take the cuts, but it's still easy for me to see what those lines would turn into. That floater is BAD. And I mean seriously bad. Doing some very rough math, you can see how insane the time gains are from carrying that speed.

Let's assume the total distance through that 4R and passed the 5L at bale to cut #8 is ~1000ft. Normal attack line would have you averaging around 90mph through that, maybe a bit higher (I don't feel like busting out my old calc physics books and doing the perfect math). That line would take you roughly 7.6 seconds.

Now let's take the cut. The total distance could be shortened easily 100ft, I'd guess 150ft if you pushed the cuts; our new total distance is only 850ft. But, the real killer here is that you can take the entire thing flatout in 5th, averaging 100mph the entire way. That new line with the cut only takes 5.8 seconds.

That is almost 2 whole seconds gained through the cut, and that is before we even start factoring in the exit speed/line benefits into the next straight. Now start doing that kind of math for every cut...

 

Actually this is the perfect time for me to use that RDA app from you. Do a run with cuts and without, then compare the total stage length and average velocity.

Edited by Mike Dee
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This topic explains a lot about some of the top leaderboard times. Perhaps we should start practice cheating, eh?

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its a tricky subject some corner nips or even honest mistakes will have you go off the road. then there is the natural better line to take. then there is the quickest line with unfair time advantages made. basically a exploit. its going to be interesting how this will be tackled. its not new but previously we didnt have the esports thing before dirt 4 anyway and so now cutting has to be sorted out. some stages cuts give you basically a unbeatable time. often top people will be within 100th of a second or closer on pushed runs. 4-5 second cut means that pro driver wont be caught. so if people know of unknown cuts and you fast you basically know you have won ! with esports now rewarding with possible careers and financial gain any given advantage will probably be used.

id personally like said for many months previously give a allowance of being from either the middle or edge of the road. if thats broken penalty instantly given not stopped just time added.

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Wow, I had no idea this was even possible. This is bad.

Of course, I can see the problem with imposing track limits in a game where unintentionally go off road from time to time. It’s not easy to differentiate cheating from accidents in this case.

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Hi everyone,

 

Regarding corner-cutting, the policy for the Qualifiers is that drivers should stay within the boundaries of the track reset lines in-game. If a car goes beyond those boundaries, the game automatically resets their position and applies a time penalty.

 

As mentioned in the Sporting Regulations, times set using exploits (eg: via modification to the game code or attempts to circumvent the times sent to the server) will be investigated and penalised accordingly.

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7 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

Regarding corner-cutting, the policy for the Qualifiers is that drivers should stay within the boundaries of the track reset lines in-game. If a car goes beyond those boundaries, the game automatically resets their position and applies a time penalty.

Meaning the cuts shown above, which are within the reset boundaries, will not be penalised?

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26 minutes ago, caerphoto said:

Meaning the cuts shown above, which are within the reset boundaries, will not be penalised?

Yeah, come on guys... that was just a political answer. A better answer would be: “We’re aware of the problem but can’t do anything right now - working on it. Please enjoy the event while we try to fix it.”

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