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Tarmac Physics and FFB

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and it seems cm is not gonna do something with this. the more time flows the less chance to se the changes.

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Interestingly enough, for me Monte slippery feels good for driving.While i realize the dry tarmac is not a  good feel.

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36 minutes ago, Madhun1967 said:

Interestingly enough, for me Monte slippery feels good for driving.While i realize the dry tarmac is not a  good feel.

Agree, the ice is fine, but the transition between ice and tarmac is woeful.

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And what do you think about ice patches laying in lower altitudes while there is wet snow in higher alts? Yeah I know it's possible but is it for such not distant places?

In addition, in DR1 co-pilot warns about ice patches. in DR2 he doesn't say a word. Instead it informs about snow, but way before it really starts

Edited by MaXyMsrpl
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so i bought the 306 FWD beats and i hate it on tarmac.Tried to dial it in to no avail to have it drive like a 280 hp FWD car i think should ,to have it drive like in other sims im used to.

NO good .Tried stiffening front,+ camber ,bar to make front "push" but i cant get a happy tune on it.Can anyone share ? That floaty feel i cant get rid of .

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Also what sat and FFB settings on FWD to make it drivable for you all ? thanks  T300 user here 

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33 minutes ago, Madhun1967 said:

Also what sat and FFB settings on FWD to make it drivable for you all ? thanks  T300 user here 

It doesn’t matter what you do. I have the THrustmaster TX...same issue. Not hardware related. Was driving Spain last night with the 2001 Subaru - which I love, but again - terrible feeling. Cannot sense tire slip, no indication of when traction is being lost. No wheel vibration, self aligning torque etc. Just grip - then no grip. Need to over-rotate the wheel once understeer has occurred - and then turns in to oversteer in opposite direction while on-throttle.

Complete and total guess-work to determine what the car is doing as the wheel doesn’t tell me anything.

So frustrating. 😡

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20 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

And what do you think about ice patches laying in lower altitudes while there is wet snow in higher alts? Yeah I know it's possible but is it for such not distant places?

In addition, in DR1 co-pilot warns about ice patches. in DR2 he doesn't say a word. Instead it informs about snow, but way before it really starts

I'd say it's not only possible but quite common. On regular winter roads you can get these cold patches with ice on seemingly random places, and wet snow or sludge in other places. Mountain roads are much more unpredictable and can change a lot even in short distances.

 

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2 hours ago, Madhun1967 said:

Also what sat and FFB settings on FWD to make it drivable for you all ? thanks  T300 user here 

I have everything set to 100% in the TM control panel. In game I have self aligning torque set at 60, tyre friction 100 and suspension 120. Then just collision and soft lock to taste. 

I find it works well except for Spain (which has the worst tarmac feel of all the tracks, Monaco having the best), and RWD cars. With RWD cars it feels like I have to preemptively guess how much opposite lock I have to apply. No feel whatsoever as to what the rear end is doing. AWD and FWD work fine though, I really don't have much to complain about there. Sure, I'd wish for more feel of tyre slip and SAT but for me it's good enough to be enjoyable - with the aforementioned exceptions. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 7:14 PM, Buckwilder said:

I think you pretty much nailed it, well summarized! In fact, there has always been a knock against CM for their Tarmac physics, and ‘floating car’ syndrome. It is undeniable that the car (feels like) - it rotates about its center axis more than it does turn naturally based on the front wheel angle. As you noted, it is this reason the rear end feels unstable as well, because the pivot point is not right. Many have reported in this game that the cars seem to drift left and right while driving in a straight line, it is this same phenomenon that is responsible for the points noted above. 

One thing that's quite telling of this is... Well, take a FWD on the DirtFish track and do some donuts. If you do it right you can get the car to turn in a pretty tight circle. This might take a few attempts as the tendency is to understeer in a wide circle, which is fine, but get a little momentum on the rear and you can control it fairly well with the throttle. It's like some bastardization of RWD and AWD.

I've never been able to do that with a real FWD car, and I've never seen anyone else able to that. Only explanation I have for this, is that the front wheels aren't actually driving the car - the force must be further back, i.e center pivot. RWD and AWD act more natural, but that is to be expected. 

I would be very interested to hear CM reasoning behind this. Is it to make the game feel more arcade? Is it a compromise to make the game more realistic with available resources? Or perhaps a completely different reason? Whatever it is, it would be an interesting discussion that could provide interesting insight into the way CM are thinking about this game.

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5 minutes ago, Gregow said:

One thing that's quite telling of this is... Well, take a FWD on the DirtFish track and do some donuts. If you do it right you can get the car to turn in a pretty tight circle. This might take a few attempts as the tendency is to understeer in a wide circle, which is fine, but get a little momentum on the rear and you can control it fairly well with the throttle. It's like some bastardization of RWD and AWD.

I've never been able to do that with a real FWD car, and I've never seen anyone else able to that. Only explanation I have for this, is that the front wheels aren't actually driving the car - the force must be further back, i.e center pivot. RWD and AWD act more natural, but that is to be expected. 

I would be very interested to hear CM reasoning behind this. Is it to make the game feel more arcade? Is it a compromise to make the game more realistic with available resources? Or perhaps a completely different reason? Whatever it is, it would be an interesting discussion that could provide interesting insight into the way CM are thinking about this game.

I think it has to do with the requirement to make cars slide around because it is a Rally game. As a byproduct, all cars have the same trait and ability to slide about a center axis, regardless of the drivetrain type. This would also explain why even when not sliding - cars still feel unplanted or as though they are excessively influenced by inertia (even when none exists). That is, changes in weight ‘load’ cause the cars in this game to rotate - but not shift weight to each corner as they would in real life. Seems to me this would all be done to cut code required to accurately reproduce lateral load and suspension behaviour. The lack of suspension behaviour and tire slip feel thus becomes absent (which it is), on all surfaces - the most pronounced of which is tarmac...as they cant fake reactive forces on a flat surface the same as you can explain away or hide the same phenomenon on a bumpy, slippery, and uneven terrain.

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28 minutes ago, Gregow said:

It's like some bastardization of RWD and AWD.

😂

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On 9/27/2019 at 9:08 PM, Buckwilder said:

I think it has to do with the requirement to make cars slide around because it is a Rally game. As a byproduct, all cars have the same trait and ability to slide about a center axis, regardless of the drivetrain type. This would also explain why even when not sliding - cars still feel unplanted or as though they are excessively influenced by inertia (even when none exists). That is, changes in weight ‘load’ cause the cars in this game to rotate - but not shift weight to each corner as they would in real life. Seems to me this would all be done to cut code required to accurately reproduce lateral load and suspension behaviour. The lack of suspension behaviour and tire slip feel thus becomes absent (which it is), on all surfaces - the most pronounced of which is tarmac...as they cant fake reactive forces on a flat surface the same as you can explain away or hide the same phenomenon on a bumpy, slippery, and uneven terrain.

Yeah, I guess it's a simplified model made to make the cars cool to slide around. Sadly, the more I play the more this behavior annoys me. As you say, the cars rotate but lack real tire load. Sure, you can toss the cars around but it's like the tires don't have contact with the road (or at least don't have real forces acting on them).

Another telling example I think are the rwd cars. I can't really come to grips with them. One aspect is the lack of feeling the rear end kick loose, but also they don't drive as the should.

When I've driven rwd cars on gravel I've used a pretty simple technique. Lift off to rotate the car, step on the throttle and apply some opposite lock. What happens is the rear wheels dig in and accelerate you out of the corner.

In DR what happens is, you get lift off oversteer and with a little throttle you spin out. And that's even with low powered cars. It's like there's no load transfered to the rear tires.

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I'm not getting any lift off oversteer in RWD cars tbf. The thing is, if you're a moment too late with opposite lock the rear end will come around. Check your diff settings. Too much lock will result in oversteer, so opening it up a bit should help you with powering out of corners.  

Edited by richie

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2 hours ago, richie said:

I'm not getting any lift off oversteer in RWD cars tbf. The thing is, if you're a moment too late with opposite lock the rear end will come around. Check your diff settings. Too much lock will result in oversteer, so opening it up a bit should help you with powering out of corners.  

Yes, but then we are modifying settings to circumvent the strange handling characteristics noted. Sorry but they are not accurate, and it takes way too much opposite lock to counteract the excessive and insane tendency to over-rotate the back end on RWD cars. I understand throttle control, and RWD drive-dynamics, but no one can convince me the physics in this game in that regard are accurate. 

Edited by Buckwilder

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1 hour ago, Buckwilder said:

Yes, but then we are modifying settings to circumvent the strange handling characteristics noted. Sorry but they are not accurate, and it takes way too much opposite lock to counteract the excessive and insane tendency to over-rotate the back end on RWD cars. I understand throttle control, and RWD drive-dynamics, but no one can convince me the physics in this game in that regard are accurate. 

Well, if no one can convince you then there's no point in discussing this. Settings are there to be modified to your liking, aren't they? The stock setup has been dialed in by someone who thought 'that's good enough' for a base tune, so why not dial in some understeer if find it too oversteery? Actually opening up the diff isn't the best idea because you'll be losing power while accelerating. An open diff sends always 50/50 torque to both wheels, regardless of slip. With a more locked diff you can actually steer with the throttle. The game does a fantastic job in reproducing this, in my view of course.  

Edited by richie

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19 minutes ago, richie said:

Well, if no one can convince you then there's no point in discussing this. Settings are there to be modified to your liking, aren't they? The stock setup has been dialed in by someone who thought 'that's good enough' for a base tune, so why not dial in some understeer if find it too oversteery? Actually opening up the diff isn't the best idea because you'll be losing power while accelerating. An open diff sends always 50/50 torque to both wheels, regardless of slip. With a more locked diff you can actually steer with the throttle. The game does a fantastic job in reproducing this, in my view of course.  

Yeah that is understanding as well, that opening the diff while making the car easier to drive - results in loss of power for the reasons you noted. Perhaps I need to spend more time driving RWD, but I just find them insanely difficult and so have avoided them almost entirely to this point.

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I need to agree about rwd. driving them require pretty much arcade abilities. irk those cars would kill you easily. 

If some start argue about their power, torque etc, remember they are still driveable  under normal conditions (by common driver). While those in-game seems to be not.

BTW do you know why CM avoids informing us about FFB/handling improvements? Have they decided to not deliver further improvements in this area?

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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Yeah, you need absolutely perfect arcade abilities, you actually need all the arcade abilities! (:classic_huh:)

Edited by richie

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15 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

What am I missing here? The f’ are ‘Arcade Abilities’ ? 🤨

I don't know, he uses this word a lot, I guess it's one of his favourites. It has been used a lot and it really got old. ^^

Edited by richie

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5 minutes ago, richie said:

I don't know, he uses this word a lot, I guess it's one of his favourites. It has been used a lot and it really got old. ^^

Lol, perhaps we should allow him to explain then - cause it makes no goddam sense to me! 

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8 minutes ago, Buckwilder said:

Lol, perhaps we should allow him to explain then - cause it makes no goddam sense to me! 

No, good thing about this word is that it's empty. You can fill in any meaning you want ^^

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do you know what are (were) arcade machines? if you are too young to remember, ask wiki. then you will get where the word 'arcade' came from. And maybe you will manage to figure out my parabole. 

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9 minutes ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

do you know what are (were) arcade machines? if you are too young to remember, ask wiki. then you will get where the word 'arcade' came from. And maybe you will manage to figure out my parabole. 

I am likely older than you, and I know what arcade machines are. I (we), just don’t understand the correlation between them and the point you are trying to make.

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