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Tarmac Physics and FFB

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Then... you should know that those machines require some specific skills to be successful. Similarity to what is required to drive RWD cars in DR2 should be know more clear. At least it's my opinion.
If not - I really cannot help more.

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4 minutes ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

Then... you should know that those machines require some specific skills to be successful. Similarity to what is required to drive RWD cars in DR2 should be know more clear. At least it's my opinion.
If not - I really cannot help more.

Ok I understand, it’s just an odd analogy 😉

And yes, they are difficult - very much so in fact. I avoid them myself...but when I do drive them, going back to AWD seems like a walk in the park.

There is no question driving all the different vehicles in the game makes you a better driver overall as it teaches you things like weight transfer, throttle management, brake points, etc.

 

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3 hours ago, richie said:

Well, if no one can convince you then there's no point in discussing this. Settings are there to be modified to your liking, aren't they? The stock setup has been dialed in by someone who thought 'that's good enough' for a base tune, so why not dial in some understeer if find it too oversteery? Actually opening up the diff isn't the best idea because you'll be losing power while accelerating. An open diff sends always 50/50 torque to both wheels, regardless of slip. With a more locked diff you can actually steer with the throttle. The game does a fantastic job in reproducing this, in my view of course. 

No, that's not how an open diff works. It sends the power to the wheel that's rotating the most. That's why you want some lock to the diff, so you don't just spin the wheel with least traction. This, of course, has it's own limits and trade offs (like making the car harder to rotate).

The stock setups are very good for what they are, making the cars behave similar to their real life counterparts. At least judging by the ones I've driven.

However, they do not behave like real cars woukd. No matter how you tune them. They have similar characteristics, but doing the same things you could in a real car does not always translate well.

RWD cars are an excellent example. Problem isn't over or understeer. The problem is you can't dig in the rear wheels and balance the car properly with the throttle.

I don't mean they're impossible to balance. I mean, for example, you can't send the rear out and plant your foot without spinning. I mean, you can't really catch the rear, when it's kicking out, with your foot.

Driving a reasonably powered rwd car, say sub 300bhp, on gravel in real life is... well, a piece of cake actually. Well, probably excluding the Stratos and others with short wheelbases and very light weight.

I used to drive a 300+ hp Nissan 180SX (S13) on gravel roads, weighing somewhere around 1100Kg. It was very easy to drive.

I've driven Escort MK2, E30 M3, Porsche 944, Toyota MR2, Alfa 75, Opel Manta, Volvo 240... all on gravel. They were all easy (well, the MR2 could be a bit unpredictable). Never spun out. It was not even an issue. You don't have to feather the throttle. You dig the gosh darn rear wheels in, let it go a little wide and counter steer. Piece of cake.

Forget that in DR2. Heck, you can spin out at 30kph.

Edited by Gregow
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27 minutes ago, Gregow said:

No, that's not how an open diff works. It sends the power to the wheel that's rotating the most. That's why you want some lock to the diff, so you don't just spin the wheel with least traction. This, of course, has it's own limits and trade offs (like making the car harder to rotate).

The stock setups are very good for what they are, making the cars behave similar to their real life counterparts. At least judging by the ones I've driven.

However, they do not behave like real cars woukd. No matter how you tune them. They have similar characteristics, but doing the same things you could in a real car does not always translate well.

RWD cars are an excellent example. Problem isn't over or understeer. The problem is you can't dig in the rear wheels and balance the car properly with the throttle.

I don't mean they're impossible to balance. I mean, for example, you can't send the rear out and plant your foot without spinning. I mean, you can't really catch the rear, when it's kicking out, with your foot.

Driving a reasonably powered rwd car, say sub 300bhp, on gravel in real life is... well, a piece of cake actually. Well, probably excluding the Stratos and others with short wheelbases and very light weight.

I used to drive a 300+ hp Nissan 180SX (S13) on gravel roads, weighing somewhere around 1100Kg. It was very easy to drive.

I've driven Escort MK2, E30 M3, Porsche 944, Toyota MR2, Alfa 75, Opel Manta, Volvo 240... all on gravel. They were all easy (well, the MR2 could be a bit unpredictable). Never spun out. It was not even an issue. You don't have to feather the throttle. You dig the gosh darn rear wheels in, let it go a little wide and counter steer. Piece of cake.

Forget that in DR2. Heck, you can spin out at 30kph.

Interesting reading, and I have to agree, even though I use the stock DS4 on the PS4 and not a steeringwheel.

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RWD cars are pretty good on Xbox controller. DS4 is not good controller because FFB is too small I would say for RWD.

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16 hours ago, Gregow said:

No, that's not how an open diff works. It sends the power to the wheel that's rotating the most. That's why you want some lock to the diff, so you don't just spin the wheel with least traction. This, of course, has it's own limits and trade offs (like making the car harder to rotate).

 

No, you can look it up. An open diff sends the same torque to both wheels. The wheel with more traction will always be limited to the torque sent to the wheel with less traction, while more lock means more torque is sent to the wheel with more traction. 

 

Edited by richie
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4 hours ago, richie said:

No, you can look it up. An open diff sends the same torque to both wheels. The wheel with more traction will always be limited to the torque sent to the wheel with less traction, while more lock will send more torque to the wheel with more traction. 

 

Wow, can't remember watching an engineering video this wrong for a while. Might be right about the torque percentage but VERY wrong about the outcome in the real world. 

We need to stop using terms like torque and power, they are irrelevant for our purpose and confusing people. We are talking about drive to the wheels. 

With an open diff, the drive goes to the wheel with least resistance, eg: one wheel on gravel or in the air the other or tarmac, the DRIVE will go to the wheel on gravel or air making it spin while the wheel on tar will get little to no drive. Locking the diff (or locking the wheels together) means the wheels will spin together regardless of the resistance one or the other faces. 

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yeah that makes sense ,as all "cheap" cars come with open diff and  not limited slip ?! 

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...........BTW i think RBR did an excellent job on this front ,as i remember trying to beat that school track, and the eway the car would just "dig" in under that gravel.Was soooooo fun 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, happyboy1974 said:

Wow, can't remember watching an engineering video this wrong for a while. Might be right about the torque percentage but VERY wrong about the outcome in the real world. 

We need to stop using terms like torque and power, they are irrelevant for our purpose and confusing people. We are talking about drive to the wheels. 

With an open diff, the drive goes to the wheel with least resistance, eg: one wheel on gravel or in the air the other or tarmac, the DRIVE will go to the wheel on gravel or air making it spin while the wheel on tar will get little to no drive. Locking the diff (or locking the wheels together) means the wheels will spin together regardless of the resistance one or the other faces. 

I don't know why you don't want to use the word 'torque' because that's exactly what the driveshaft is transmitting to the wheels. What you're describing is exactly what is explained in the video. It is off-topic anyway and irrelevant to the discussion. I was just giving the advice to change diff settings to reduce oversteer in RWD cars. 

Edited by richie

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My bad, I was drunk driving my phone last night. Yes, torque is equal - to the wheel with least traction.

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17 hours ago, Gregow said:

I've driven Escort MK2, E30 M3, Porsche 944, Toyota MR2, Alfa 75, Opel Manta, Volvo 240... all on gravel. They were all easy (well, the MR2 could be a bit unpredictable). Never spun out. It was not even an issue. You don't have to feather the throttle. You dig the gosh darn rear wheels in, let it go a little wide and counter steer. Piece of cake.

Forget that in DR2. Heck, you can spin out at 30kph.

I have none of these issues driving RWD's in the game. In fact I think DR2's representation of RWD's is by far the best out there involving gravel. If there is one thing I'd could complain about is that getting away from the start line requires too little feathering of the throttle to find grip.

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