Tarmac Physics and FFB

[Buckwilder 491]

While by no means unplayable, this game (like its predecessor), is lacking in this domain. Perhaps this post belongs in the FFB thread (?) - but I feel the FFB in other locations is livable and quite good all things considered. However, the tarmac stages leave me ‘wanting’. Improvement in this capacity would absolutely make this game feel ‘whole’...

I hope we see a future patch address this, it would be amazing if CM could recreate the same kind of true-to-life feeling on paved surfaces as they have captured so well on gravel/dirt.

[MaXyMsrpl 259]

I know a lot of people who wait for FFB improvement to buy this game.
@PJTierney is improvement of FFB considered in future patches?

[gk9147 167]

for me the tarmac need more sliding too  and ithe tarmac with rain ( with rain tyre ) is very grippy  i wait big update for the tarmac 

[MaXyMsrpl 259]

Loosy surfaces are too grippy too. It's unbelievable how quick a car stops when sliding sideways. But this is design decision IMO, I doubt they will change it ever.

[gk9147 167]

@Grimmi36 is your second account @LutzM or @dgeesi0 or you other friend   😂

[Gregow 96]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:51 PM, MaXyMsrpl said:

Loosy surfaces are too grippy too. It's unbelievable how quick a car stops when sliding sideways. But this is design decision IMO, I doubt they will change it ever.

I think the sliding is pretty accurate most of the time. The game does a good job of simulating how the tires shovel dirt and dig down to then “bite”. What I’ve found somewhat lacking, and maybe this is just my lack of skill, is when you try to use a lot of momentum for a long drift.

Say for example you’re coming at very high speed towards a hairpin and want to drift the car so you’re essentially going backwards with the nose pointing into the hairpin. I’ve never got that to work because the car loses speed too quickly. It’s like you gain grip exponentially, almost.

[gk9147 167]

2 hours ago, Gregow said:

I think the sliding is pretty accurate most of the time. The game does a good job of simulating how the tires shovel dirt and dig down to then “bite”. What I’ve found somewhat lacking, and maybe this is just my lack of skill, is when you try to use a lot of momentum for a long drift.

Say for example you’re coming at very high speed towards a hairpin and want to drift the car so you’re essentially going backwards with the nose pointing into the hairpin. I’ve never got that to work because the car loses speed too quickly. It’s like you gain grip exponentially, almost.

yes is true, and normaly in real with low speed is possible to take turn in slide or drift with good acceleraition too . but  on DR 2.0 on tarmac  the grip is very high  same for wet tarmac with rain tyre   ,     when i drive with rain tyre on wet track i have impressions  this tyre is better than medium tyre  on dry tarmac   is very strange 

[Buckwilder 491]

8 hours ago, gk9147 said:

yes is true, and normaly in real with low speed is possible to take turn in slide or drift with good acceleraition too . but  on DR 2.0 on tarmac  the grip is very high  same for wet tarmac with rain tyre   ,     when i drive with rain tyre on wet track i have impressions  this tyre is better than medium tyre  on dry tarmac   is very strange 

My issue is not so much with the grip or lack thereof - in fact in that respect it seems ok I feel. My concern was more cantered around the feeling transmitted back through the wheel, to indicate grip, or loss of grip. When the car is not sliding the self aligning torque and ‘bite’ feel understated. I have a very difficult time judging that ‘critical mass’ point - meaning when the car is going to break loose there is nothing through the wheel that suggests the car is at its limit. 

[caerphoto 277]

10 hours ago, Buckwilder said:

My issue is not so much with the grip or lack thereof - in fact in that respect it seems ok I feel. My concern was more cantered around the feeling transmitted back through the wheel, to indicate grip, or loss of grip. When the car is not sliding the self aligning torque and ‘bite’ feel understated. I have a very difficult time judging that ‘critical mass’ point - meaning when the car is going to break loose there is nothing through the wheel that suggests the car is at its limit. 

Yeah, I've found that having SAT set high (70 or so for my G29) feels great on tarmac. The problem is, that's way too high a value for loose surfaces, so I need to turn it back down to 35 or so for gravel.

[bn880 483]

Some good points in this thread, I think there is a bit too much grip in some gravel situations as well. (could also be overall grip)

[gk9147 167]

On 9/11/2019 at 3:18 AM, bn880 said:

Some good points in this thread, I think there is a bit too much grip in some gravel situations as well. (could also be overall grip)

i no have problem for the gravel , personnaly if the car have grip  i remove  camber , i put the rear setup litle more hard ,  i add more power with  accelerations -ramp , and i put the car more high .

[Buckwilder 491]

15 hours ago, gk9147 said:

i no have problem for the gravel , personnaly if the car have grip  i remove  camber , i put the rear setup litle more hard ,  i add more power with  accelerations -ramp , and i put the car more high .

Agreed - I have no issues with gravel or dirt, they seem just right to me personally. In most cases they are slippery enough, and I can easily rotate the car with throttle, brake, handbrake - or a combination of all three.

[bogani 636]

What is troubling tarmac is that the car moves across the surface in weird angles. It doesn't feel like you steer the car with the front wheels, rather from the center. It truly feels like the whole car pivots when applying steering. If you steer to the left the rear axle/tires doesnt stay in place, they slightly gets pushed over the surface to the right. Something like that. Some cars and classes feels slightly better. With slower cars and certain drivetrains it doesnt become as apparent. 

If I jump in to RBR(NGP) or even WRC8 on a tarmac stage and drives I instantly notice that the rear end stays in place and follows the front track(unless you upset grip obviously).

This weird issue of the car not always aiming straight when it's supposed to also impacts the FFB feel negatively. It feels vague, sloppy and in precise around the center of the wheel. The FFB should feel tight, more uniform and rigid than it currently does in DR2 on tarmac. It's obviously debatable as FFB is very personal, just my two cents though.

[gk9147 167]

3 hours ago, bogani said:

What is troubling tarmac is that the car moves across the surface in weird angles. It doesn't feel like you steer the car with the front wheels, rather from the center. It truly feels like the whole car pivots when applying steering. If you steer to the left the rear axle/tires doesnt stay in place, they slightly gets pushed over the surface to the right. Something like that. Some cars and classes feels slightly better. With slower cars and certain drivetrains it doesnt become as apparent. 

If I jump in to RBR(NGP) or even WRC8 on a tarmac stage and drives I instantly notice that the rear end stays in place and follows the front track(unless you upset grip obviously).

This weird issue of the car not always aiming straight when it's supposed to also impacts the FFB feel negatively. It feels vague, sloppy and in precise around the center of the wheel. The FFB should feel tight, more uniform and rigid than it currently does in DR2 on tarmac. It's obviously debatable as FFB is very personal, just my two cents though.

Maybe your steering wheel has a setup too responsive (a low rotation angle) that's why your car leaves on the outside so easily, after me to prevent my car from slipping back, I put a rear settings more flexible for suspensions and shock absorbers and anti-roll bars but you risk to understeer

[Madhun1967 38]

and to aggravate the tarmac handling for me at least, is the fact that no tire noise alerts you when car moves across pavement 

[Buckwilder 491]

6 hours ago, bogani said:

What is troubling tarmac is that the car moves across the surface in weird angles. It doesn't feel like you steer the car with the front wheels, rather from the center. It truly feels like the whole car pivots when applying steering. If you steer to the left the rear axle/tires doesnt stay in place, they slightly gets pushed over the surface to the right. Something like that. Some cars and classes feels slightly better. With slower cars and certain drivetrains it doesnt become as apparent. 

If I jump in to RBR(NGP) or even WRC8 on a tarmac stage and drives I instantly notice that the rear end stays in place and follows the front track(unless you upset grip obviously).

This weird issue of the car not always aiming straight when it's supposed to also impacts the FFB feel negatively. It feels vague, sloppy and in precise around the center of the wheel. The FFB should feel tight, more uniform and rigid than it currently does in DR2 on tarmac. It's obviously debatable as FFB is very personal, just my two cents though.

I think you pretty much nailed it, well summarized! In fact, there has always been a knock against CM for their Tarmac physics, and ‘floating car’ syndrome. It is undeniable that the car (feels like) - it rotates about its center axis more than it does turn naturally based on the front wheel angle. As you noted, it is this reason the rear end feels unstable as well, because the pivot point is not right. Many have reported in this game that the cars seem to drift left and right while driving in a straight line, it is this same phenomenon that is responsible for the points noted above. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Buckwilder

[Madhun1967 38]

wow yeah the "pivot" argument dates back to CM3 i believe, so its an issue for awhile.I was just hoping that with tuning/FFB setting we could get rid of it  in this beautiful game.

[danielofifi 370]

Yeah, @bogani summed it all up very well. 

3 hours ago, Madhun1967 said:

and to aggravate the tarmac handling for me at least, is the fact that no tire noise alerts you when car moves across pavement 

Agree. You can put brake power to the maximum and to the front and sure, the car becomes very unstable under braking, but there is no sound or feeling of tyres actually sliding on the tarmac as the wheels are locked.

I said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to grip levels Project Cars 2 nailed it in rallycross, both for tarmac and gravel in my opinion. I would give all my money for a rally game with such physics. 

[Mike Dee 1,135]

@bogani and @Buckwilder both hit it on the head, and honestly it's part of the reason I cannot stand using full cockpit cam. It becomes painfully obvious that you are the centerpoint and the car is just rotating around that center axis of the car. It is less noticeable on gravel since you are mentally expecting some slippier kind of traction with the car, but on tarmac it is really painful. I've said it before, but sadly I think this will come down to an EGO overhaul - CM appears to only be able to get one of the two surface types really nailed down with the other suffering for it - in DR2 that means we get awesome gravel physics at the cost of tarmac.

[Buckwilder 491]

Truth be told I was very shocked at the tarmac handing when DR2.0 came out. This was a well documented condition/issue on the first DiRT Rally, so I would thought it to have been a priority for the second game. It irritates me that a game like WRC 8 can reproduce tarmac handling more accurately than CM, especially when you consider the pedigree and experience with Rally titles for a studio like CM, when compared to a (relatively), new player in Rally titles like Kylotonn. Sure, WRC8 was in development for 2 years, but just the same - there was a 3 year pause between DR1 and DR2. More than enough time to iron it out, and add some much needed feel. Makes me think they just ported over existing script - or that it is a limitation inherent with the EGO engine given the long standing issues and complaints with the floating car/pivot/rails phenomenon.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Buckwilder

[danielofifi 370]

I get a feeling that some classes feel okay on tarmac. When I drive an H3 Renault Turbo or Kit Cars in Spain, it can be quite enjoyable. It's the AWD cars that suffer the most from tarmac handling physics in my opinion. They're very boring and unnatural.

Edited September 25, 2019 by danielofifi

[Madhun1967 38]

as you cause the car to move on tarmac it "sways" with no tire noise, or feel in wheel .................thats the issue for me .Understeer effect is way different, if you can call it that, than other sims.

[Buckwilder 491]

5 hours ago, Madhun1967 said:

as you cause the car to move on tarmac it "sways" with no tire noise, or feel in wheel .................thats the issue for me .Understeer effect is way different, if you can call it that, than other sims.

Yes, the ‘idle sway’ is noticeable for me also. The car feels like it slides left and right even though moving in a straight line at times. I have said in numerous posts, and this is true on ALL surfaces - the cars do not feel ‘planted’.

[Madhun1967 38]

What i wouldnt give to have tarmac physics like RR,or PC2 and then have a go at Germany 🙂

For now if i want tarmac i hop in a car in RR and do the hillclimb tracks.................very satisfying 

[Buckwilder 491]

Agreed! It would add a whole dimension to Germany and Spain, and even Monte.

As it stands I do not like those locations, and not for their properties or locations, but rather due to the sub-par tarmac feeling, it truly is abysmal IMHO.