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Stock Tuning Setups in DiRT Rally 2.0 World Series

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1 hour ago, Eagleizer said:

BTW: I loaded up your Ghost at Kopina. How do you explain the you first fly by me at the long

That was from me messing around with people to see how much tuning could help. I've paced it so far stock in most sectors without cuts (again, I'm the one who started the other thread so I needed to have some empirical evidence for what I was about to rant on) - so yeah I did a gear change to show on stream how much time it "saved".  But I've been busy playing Terra Mystica with friends and hooning around in the M2 all weekend so I haven't had a chance to go fix that time at all with a stock run.

As for when it was posted, dude idk go dig up the internet archives yourself. That regulation sheet was posted the day WC was announced, but if you want to find the modification data on it I'll let you do the digging.

 

1 hour ago, AadHofman said:

Yeah, but Mike Dee claimed that there are near WR times done with the default setup. Not possible with the Golf. 

I found your first problem - no one is using the Golf. It's too slow. And yes it is fully possible, right now the current "WR" for a 100% stock run with no cuts is a 3:48.8xx by someone who could dismantle this entire forum of drivers. And we aren't even talking about Joona yet. There are also a good chunk of people I know who are posting below a 3:55 stock without cuts. This is what I mean that tuning doesn't matter. Until you are capable of pacing these same times without a tune, anything you change on the car won't help you actually compete with the fast drivers.

Edited by Mike Dee
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the point is that if you are good enough to get out of the qualifiers by being in the top 3% (or whatever), the setup does not matter. you should not worrying about getting your lowest possible time, you are just making sure you are faster than everyone who is slow.

if you are almost that good, then practice with the stock setups.

then if you are good enough to make the semis you can use your own setups.

and who cares about assists? the assists slow you down a little and the people who use them (like me) will be slower anyways and never qualify.

it's the qualifiers. 90% of the people who take part are going to do it for fun and not worry too much. if you're in that top ~10% or so, then cool. if not, chill out. 

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2 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

I commented only on the "gear ratio". It has nothing (or very little) to do with driving style.

And you know what: competitive driving of slow car requires more skill than fast one.

You also said: "Therefore the competition remain fair" I had included that in my quote!

"Remain", as in it is still fair with fixed setup. But it's not. 

Because we have different style of driving. How is that difficult to understand? 

I mentioned more than just scandinavian flick, didn't I? How you st up gear to

balance the car in and out of turns is also part of fitting the driving style. 

This benefits only the drivers who are shy of setups and and have adapted to drive with setus like this.

Not saying it is a huge drawback for fast drivers, but It makes it incredibly boring.  

 

It is also a valid point that we were not informed about this until today. And steering left

and right with full throttle is not what I call rally. It reminds me of rally games 15 years back.

 

And the car is still slow if you can do setup :P It's just more manageable like IRL, and

you don't have to torture your engine and yourself with konstant max RPM.

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1 hour ago, Mike Dee said:

That was from me messing around with people to see how much tuning could help. I've paced it so far stock in most sectors without cuts (again, I'm the one who started the other thread so I needed to have some empirical evidence for what I was about to rant on) - so yeah I did a gear change to show on stream how much time it "saved".  But I've been busy playing Terra Mystica with friends and hooning around in the M2 all weekend so I haven't had a chance to go fix that time at all with a stock run.

As for when it was posted, dude idk go dig up the internet archives yourself. That regulation sheet was posted the day WC was announced, but if you want to find the modification data on it I'll let you do the digging.

 

I found your first problem - no one is using the Golf. It's too slow. And yes it is fully possible, right now the current "WR" for a 100% stock run with no cuts is a 3:48.8xx by someone who could dismantle this entire forum of drivers. And we aren't even talking about Joona yet. There are also a good chunk of people I know who are posting below a 3:55 stock without cuts. This is what I mean that tuning doesn't matter. Until you are capable of pacing these same times without a tune, anything you change on the car won't help you actually compete with the fast drivers.

You wrote this:

"I race all cars 100% stock to prove a point and I hold a decently long list of WR's in everything from H2 to 2000cc and GT. But I'm slow compared to the actually fast drivers. The top drivers, who we are expecting to actually make it through qualifiers, are setting times below 3:52 on the current WC stage in Poland with the H2 FWD - they are doing it 100% stock without cuts." 

 

Nothing there about you driving without default setup. That is nothing but dishonest.

Only reason you say that now, is because you got caught.  

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2 minutes ago, Eagleizer said:

Nothing there about you driving without default setup. That is nothing but dishonest.

Only reason you say that now, is because you got caught.  

hahahahahah :classic_laugh: 🤣 :classic_laugh:

 

Please, who wants to do it for me? Anyone? Because I don't think I am even required to continue this conversation anymore, most of this forum can handle the rebuttal.

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Yeah I will confirm Mike does his runs stock to get WR's, you can check this in his live streams if you watch them.

 

I also can get a 3:52... stock in Kopina with the VW no less which seems slower. 

 

However, yeah, I think setups should be allowed for eSports, from day 1.  It's a skill and talent, part of the game.  The only negative of setups in PL is that you go insanely fast with them.  The current top speeds are more sensible.

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in fact, it's not incidental in real life, rally cars reach red line during stages and drivers have to ease a bit to limit engine wear.

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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1 hour ago, Eagleizer said:

Because we have different style of driving. How is that difficult to understand? 

And you are afraid that other driver will suffer less than you?
Lol... excuses.

It's simply. There is an competition, like many others. If you want to attend, it's for you. If you cannot agree with conditions: skip it. Nobody forces you.

Edited by MaXyMsrpl
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1 hour ago, bn880 said:

 

However, yeah, I think setups should be allowed for eSports, from day 1.  It's a skill and talent, part of the game.  The only negative of setups in PL is that you go insanely fast with them.  The current top speeds are more sensible.

That's true, and that's why it'll be allowed from the quarter finals on. I think it's not the worst idea to let everyone have a fair shot at qualification and let decide pure driving skill.

Edited by richie
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7 minutes ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

And you are afraid that other driver will suffer less than you?
Lol... excuses.

It's simply. There is an competition, like many others. If you want to attend, it's for you. If you cannot agree with conditions: skip it. Nobody forces you.

Exactly. You can tune for your driving style sure, and it'll make you faster. But that doesn't impact how fast anyone can be given the same exact setup. It may fit your style, it might not, but it is 100% equal footing that you start on. Most people's driving style doesn't match stock tunes, but it is how you adapt your driving that will determine how fast you are.

If you can only drive quick because of a very specific tune for a car done in a very specific way, otherwise you're 10 seconds off pace in a sprint, you aren't good enough to get passed qualifiers. A good driver doesn't need a tune to make it to the top 1%. They might need a tune to make it into the top 0.1% though and that is where tunes actually matter.

I get people want their tunes in qualifiers, but if you need it in quali you're going to lose immediately in quarter/semi-finals.

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2 hours ago, Eagleizer said:

Nothing there about you driving without default setup. That is nothing but dishonest.

Only reason you say that now, is because you got caught.  

the guy records himself playing DR2 all the time. he's not hiding SFA https://www.twitch.tv/catbadders/videos

 

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Lets wait for qualification.  I wish Eagleizer  good run for qualification.  Based what Ive seen on youtube and leaderboards may you can make it into the next round.

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I couldn't care less if the setup is fixed, it is a level playing field.  However, if Assists as well as exterior cameras are allowed without being dinged, then that is a joke.

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7 hours ago, DaleRossi said:

I couldn't care less if the setup is fixed, it is a level playing field.  However, if Assists as well as exterior cameras are allowed without being dinged, then that is a joke.

I'm fine with assists if it's true that they slow you down. Chase cam is an abomination though, so I'm against purely based on principle. 

Fixed setups is great but I think it would have been even better combined with not revealing stages and locations beforehand.  I've just spent an hour or two improving my time on Kopina, and frankly... this is not rally. It's more akin to circuit racing on gravel. 

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Quote

 

I tried the stock setup yesterday. Loosing 3 seconds per split compared to my custom setup. The car has too much roll, it is less reactive in corners, and indeed the max rpm noise makes the run irritating.

I cannot believe that one can reach the WR with this setup. Maybe Mike could prove he can reach 3:50 with the default setup. And eventhough, those who feal unease to tune their car can run with the stock, it will not make a big difference for them. However for the good drivers (not extreme ones) , using a custom setup may grant them better times and satisfaction, even if not in the top qualified.

Edited by zefrancou

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I made 3.55 with the Golf on stock, with no cuts. For me I don't think it's possible to go much faster, but I know several people who can. But WR without cuts and on stock I don't think is doable. But by all means, prove me wrong 🙂

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17 hours ago, bn880 said:

However, yeah, I think setups should be allowed for eSports, from day 1.  It's a skill and talent, part of the game.

It absolutely is, but I'm torn on whether I want to agree with the sentiment or not. Yes, setups for some people can turn a difficult car into a monstrously good one, just like in any other motorsport discipline (cough Vettel cough), but those people are far more rare than those who always rely on gimmick setups and are otherwise hopeless. Someone in the former group being knocked out is far less of a tragedy than someone in the latter group knocking out someone who's actually good in all conditions with the stock setup, even if they may peak lower than someone in the former group, which is why I want to lean towards only allowing setups from the next part onward. It's only the qualifiers, after all - I don't agree that it evens the playing field, but if you belong in the former group, you should still be able to scrape your way through even if you finish lower than you otherwise would, and you'll get your chance to shine eventually.

It's also why I'm okay with assists so long as they make you slower even with perfect play - it means everyone can go out there and give it their all, but most of those who will make it are those who deserve to be there even with full setups and significantly bigger restrictions.

Edited by Coffer

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4 hours ago, zefrancou said:

I cannot believe that one can reach the WR with this setup. Maybe Mike could prove he can reach 3:50 with the default setup.

I'm still stuck in the 54-53 range with a stock setup using the Peug, and spending 3 hours in Greece last night didn't help that at all... Though I know someone just pushed their stock run down to a 47 a day ago which is less than 2 seconds behind the current WR that is abusing cuts

So no, stock isn't going to get the WR anymore, the tunes and cuts have already made sure that isn't possible. But it can get damn close to it.

---

Not to mention someone has already posted a 3:52. No idea if that one was with cuts, but this is day 1 so it's only going down from here...

Edited by Mike Dee

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The great thing about this is it’s only about skill. Yeah, you can feel that you’re too much a pro to race with the plebs, but the bottom line is that the best drivers will qualify. There’s no hiding your flaws behind setups, no gimmicks, no advantages to having spent countless hours fine tuning things. It’s you, a car, a piece of road and the objective of going as fast as you can.

And no second chances.

Complaining that this is unfair is simply ludicrous.

Obviously the qualifying is not just for dedicated, True(tm), simmers. It’s for everyone, on an even playing field.

It’s open for everyone and the placing on the leaderboards will mean something for everyone participating.

You think that’s contrary to the spirit of the competition? You think it’s counter productive and unfair? Why, because the event should cater to you and your preferences?

Maybe you don’t want to hurt your precious ears when hitting the rev limiter?

Honestly, what a load of....

If you are as good as you seem to think you are - drive the **** out of the car and qualify for the quarters. 

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For the record, my best time so far is 4:25 something. I can cut that down quite a bit with a clean run and improving on some portions, but... even if I get below 4 minutes - which I find quite the challenge - I doubt I could do that in qualifying. I’ll probably mess up somewhere.

So, I won’t be in the quarter finals. That’s for sure. Not even close.

But, I know I can directly compare my time against everyone else’s. Because everyone else will be using the same default setup.

For those who advance, I can see car setups being an interesting factor.

And by the way, I do know a thing or two about tuning cars. Quite a lot more than the simple adjustments the game allows you. It’s something I’m very comfortable with.

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1 hour ago, Gregow said:

There’s no hiding your flaws behind setups, no gimmicks, no advantages to having spent countless hours fine tuning things. It’s you, a car, a piece of road and the objective of going as fast as you can.

It's almost like there is a reason so many racing disciplines and classes (that specifically are designed to foster AM -> PRO drivers and act as a filter) have extremely strict requirements about the vehicles; hell just look at RX2 where the cars are the exact same. Yes you can tune, but that ignores the fact its entire point of forcing the same performance parts. The goal is to remove $$$ and all the extra overhead that can give advantages so that true skill shines through more than anything else.

The reason the filters are designed this way is because it has been shown the fastest people will get through the filter. No reason to allow someone through the filter that will just get absolutely demolished come quarter finals. If you can't chase a 3:55 at the least for this opening stage stock, you would be lucky to even finish within 15 seconds of the other quarter finalists each stage. No one wants to waste a quarter and semi finals watching that.

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26 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

It's almost like there is a reason so many racing disciplines and classes (that specifically are designed to foster AM -> PRO drivers and act as a filter) have extremely strict requirements about the vehicles; hell just look at RX2 where the cars are the exact same. Yes you can tune, but that ignores the fact its entire point of forcing the same performance parts. The goal is to remove $$$ and all the extra overhead that can give advantages so that true skill shines through more than anything else.

The reason the filters are designed this way is because it has been shown the fastest people will get through the filter. No reason to allow someone through the filter that will just get absolutely demolished come quarter finals. If you can't chase a 3:55 at the least for this opening stage stock, you would be lucky to even finish within 15 seconds of the other quarter finalists each stage. No one wants to waste a quarter and semi finals watching that.

Indeed, if I'm not mistaken there are some karting classes where all the karts are standard issue and all you can do is make sure you're not heavier than the minimum weight. That's it. Now go and be a racing hero. And some of them do...

Speaking of tuning cars, I remember way back when my life was either work or spending time in the garage. I was obsessing about getting everything right, to the extent of making aerodynamic simulations. Anyhow, I had ordered a new set of wheels from a guy who was doing pretty well for himself in racing. He was up there at the top in whatever racing series it was, I can't remember which. When I went over to pick up the new wheels I got a closer look at his car.

Some of the parts, like shocks and springs, were the most low budget **** you could find. Like, low budget for your family saloon. He just thought they gave adequate stiffness, so whatever. Balance? Well, it was "alright".  When I asked him about it, he was like: "Yeah, well... the car will go as fast as it will go. That other stuff just makes it easier to get there."

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On 9/9/2019 at 3:44 PM, zefrancou said:

It would be like in the WRC , all pro drivers were given the same car, with the same settings, a non sense.

God I wish if its like wrc, but here in WC its completely different, no pro driver in wrc given the rally stages and the car to practice all the month to find the correct tune, that’s the nonsense actually, the difference here thats we practicing the stage until we reach it’s limit, so the players with stock setup whatever they do will not reach the players with a tuned setup, so the stage limit time in DR2 WC is depend 100% on car setting, other than WRC it doesn’t depend 100% on car setting, one of the WRC drivers can get the best setting than the other but still at the bottom of leadboard, and the driver with not that perfect setting can win the rally, simply because they never practicing the stages. 

Edited by stcooza
actuality -to- actually
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its the fairest way to see whos the quickest. all on same set ups becomes all about driving skill. thats why its done.

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