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Stock Tuning Setups in DiRT Rally 2.0 World Series

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4 hours ago, stcooza said:

but here in WC its completely different, no pro driver in wrc given the rally stages and the car to practice all the month to find the correct tune,

You can't tune though - that is the entire point. Learn the stage, try to min-max it; you will need to be an absolute top class driver to beat everyone else with a stock tune. This all comes down to raw skill; consistency is part of that skill. It's one thing to post a 3:50 after the 20th restart in TT, let's see you do it in a one-shot with the WC on the line

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6 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

You can't tune though - that is the entire point. Learn the stage, try to min-max it; you will need to be an absolute top class driver to beat everyone else with a stock tune.

Of course i can’t, I said it as (let’s say WC applying car tune as he want). 

I completely happy with these 2 rules:

1- fixed car setup.

2- one shot for qualifiers.

What i am not happy with is the one thing you mention:

6 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

It's one thing to post a 3:50 after the 20th restart in TT, let's see you do it in a one-shot with the WC on the line

What if you can’t post any time after zero restart in TT (if we say so for everyone), let’s see you do it in a one-shot with the WC on the line 😉

Edited by stcooza

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12 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

its the fairest way to see whos the quickest. all on same set ups becomes all about driving skill. thats why its done.

There is a clear logical flaw with this, and it's that the best overall drivers may NOT make it past the early stages due to having different rules between initial qualifiers/quarters and the finals.

Setup is part of real rally, it's part of the game as well.  It is a skill and talent people have spent time developing.  It also changes in some cases completely how you drive a car.  And a person may be top notch (best in the world) when they have a car set up, but may not be in the 99.9% when their setup is fecked up.  And there is no real reason other than this artificial nonsense in the rules to drive a car without setup!  Unless you are driving some old mini in the 70's or something that didn't have much you could set.

You can't get your way around this argument, and everyone else who advocates for no setup qualifiers either.  You can skip over this important fact, and make assumptions that luck will get the best drivers in, but you don't know that with absolute certainty, and it could trip up the very best.

 

Basically, the rules in the final should be applied from day 1 IF some basic minimum equipment that people have permits it.  So this is why chase cams should be disallowed, massive cutting should be disallowed (as it's BS honestly), and technically driving with controllers and keyboards should be disallowed, disabling grass should be disallowed, disabling FFB should be disallowed for qualifiers.  To re-iterate, because you're giving a chance for people who can't (more likely can't) function in a realistic competition/final to take the spots of people who can.

To add to that, you are also opening the door to people who haven't the slightest about setups to get in and take spots in the semis/final.  Why?  Are they going to catch up in that time?  Maybe, but why punish people who have already invested time in learning the craft?

Edited by bn880
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raw skill driver ability you will be fine. mechanics do the tuning. driver gives feedback. this is about whos the best rally driver. not the best set up maker.:classic_smile:

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Speaking of real rally... Group N cars up until 2001 had the following restrictions:

No modified brakes, except pads

No changing gear ratios, final drive nor differentials

No modified suspension geometry or layout, but you could change shocks and springs as well as adjust the ride height

So, I guess real rally can indeed have heavy restrictions.

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3 hours ago, bn880 said:

There is a clear logical flaw with this, and it's that the best overall drivers may NOT make it past the early stages due to having different rules between initial qualifiers/quarters and the finals.

Setup is part of real rally, it's part of the game as well.  It is a skill and talent people have spent time developing.  It also changes in some cases completely how you drive a car.  And a person may be top notch (best in the world) when they have a car set up, but may not be in the 99.9% when their setup is fecked up.  And there is no real reason other than this artificial nonsense in the rules to drive a car without setup!  Unless you are driving some old mini in the 70's or something that didn't have much you could set.

You can't get your way around this argument, and everyone else who advocates for no setup qualifiers either.  You can skip over this important fact, and make assumptions that luck will get the best drivers in, but you don't know that with absolute certainty, and it could trip up the very best.

 

Basically, the rules in the final should be applied from day 1 IF some basic minimum equipment that people have permits it.  So this is why chase cams should be disallowed, massive cutting should be disallowed (as it's BS honestly), and technically driving with controllers and keyboards should be disallowed, disabling grass should be disallowed, disabling FFB should be disallowed for qualifiers.  To re-iterate, because you're giving a chance for people who can't (more likely can't) function in a realistic competition/final to take the spots of people who can.

To add to that, you are also opening the door to people who haven't the slightest about setups to get in and take spots in the semis/final.  Why?  Are they going to catch up in that time?  Maybe, but why punish people who have already invested time in learning the craft?

With all the respect but I really don't understand what your problem is. At some point you just have to accept that Codies set the championship up they want. It looks like the championship you have in mind is an exclusive hardcore WC. Why shouldn't they let everyone take part and give it a try? No game pads, no keyboards, no exterior cams. Really? You can't be serious.

I think it's more interesting to see how the best drivers fare when they're a bit out of their comfort zone and I think the best will adapt and they'll get through to the finals. 

What about the daily-esque 'only one shot' rule? That'll mix things up more than having to drive with stock setups. Tuning is a skill that requires lots of knowledge, that's true, but how do you make sure everyone uses his own setup? Teams often have at least one setup guy who makes the setups for his teammates so I think that is not a valid argument. 

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4 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

raw skill driver ability you will be fine. mechanics do the tuning. driver gives feedback. this is about whos the best rally driver. not the best set up maker.:classic_smile:

It's not black and white like that. 🙂  The good drivers pick up a lot of setup skills.   There is no real engineer in DR2.0 to help you either.

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2 hours ago, richie said:

With all the respect but I really don't understand what your problem is. At some point you just have to accept that Codies set the championship up they want. It looks like the championship you have in mind is an exclusive hardcore WC. Why shouldn't they let everyone take part and give it a try? No game pads, no keyboards, no exterior cams. Really? You can't be serious.

I think it's more interesting to see how the best drivers fare when they're a bit out of their comfort zone and I think the best will adapt and they'll get through to the finals. 

What about the daily-esque 'only one shot' rule? That'll mix things up more than having to drive with stock setups. Tuning is a skill that requires lots of knowledge, that's true, but how do you make sure everyone uses his own setup? Teams often have at least one setup guy who makes the setups for his teammates so I think that is not a valid argument. 

Well if your argument is that Codies can set up the champ they way they want, and we have no input.. and also that you missed the entire point of keeping rules constant for qualifiers through finals, then we have nothing to discuss.  You can also keep assuming things, you are all super smart in knowing exactly who will adapt to often an upside down setup and whether that makes them the better driver 😉 .

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48 minutes ago, bn880 said:

Well if your argument is that Codies can set up the champ they way they want, and we have no input.. and also that you missed the entire point of keeping rules constant for qualifiers through finals, then we have nothing to discuss.  You can also keep assuming things, you are all super smart in knowing exactly who will adapt to often an upside down setup and whether that makes them the better driver 😉 .

It is admittedly an unnecessary sentence, but Is that my argument? I don't think so, but it's convenient to assume it is and just ignore the actual points I made.

 

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I didn't ignore your points, you ignored mine and also told me that my opinion doesn't even matter.  (you never addressed any of my points with anything logical)

 

My main point was this:  "

There is a clear logical flaw with this, and it's that the best overall drivers may NOT make it past the early stages due to having different rules between initial qualifiers/quarters and the finals.

Setup is part of real rally, it's part of the game as well.  It is a skill and talent people have spent time developing.  It also changes in some cases completely how you drive a car.  And a person may be top notch (best in the world) when they have a car set up, but may not be in the 99.9% when their setup is fecked up.  And there is no real reason other than this artificial nonsense in the rules to drive a car without setup!  Unless you are driving some old mini in the 70's or something that didn't have much you could set.

You can't get your way around this argument, and everyone else who advocates for no setup qualifiers either.  You can skip over this important fact, and make assumptions that luck will get the best drivers in, but you don't know that with absolute certainty, and it could trip up the very best.

"    not sure how what you said really did anything to address that.  Nothing actually now that I have re-read your post.

Edited by bn880

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I don't know where you're reading that I told you your opinion doesn't matter. Very unlikely you'll ever be reading something like that from me. What I was trying to say is that you can't expect Codies to set up an exclusive, elite hardcore WC. They have to give the whole player base a chance to give this qualification and maybe the tournament a try.

 I know what your main point was and I actually addressed the setup argument. The rest is also just assumptions from your side. Anyways, I came into this thread to disagree with the line 'fixed setups are unfair'. They aren't unfair to anyone. 

Edited by richie

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16 hours ago, richie said:

At some point you just have to accept that Codies set the championship up they want.

You can accept the fact that there's nothing you can do to change it and still be unhappy with it. His arguments in that regard are solid, even if others like the two of us may disagree with them to some extent.

8 hours ago, richie said:

They aren't unfair to anyone.

They are to those who thrive when driving cars with very specific handling characteristics. You're bound to run into them because a good few of them have a much higher peak than those who are good with everything, something which is common in all forms of motorsport.

The way I see it is that this is still fairer than allowing setups day 1 because it forces you to prove that you have something to offer even without those setups, which most of those drivers absolutely do, but those who rely solely on the usual gimmick/cheat-y setups that plague Codemasters games absolutely don't. If you were to make an analogy to the F1 games which I'm much more familiar with, this would be like comparing Daniel Bereznay to Tiametmarduk.

Edited by Coffer
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14 hours ago, bn880 said:

Setup is part of real rally, it's part of the game as well.

In real rally the drivers will not reach the stage time limit as we do in-game, that’s a part you should consider. 

a lot of players had pure driving skills to reach a stage time limit with stock setup, but they can’t tune their car to beyond the stage time limit as the players who can beyond it by changing the car setup, that’s not fair as its not your fault.

car setup is part of real rally but not inside the rally stage as well.

Edited by stcooza

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Don't forget guys, that reaching the peak stage times in the game is also relying on exploits of the physics simulation.  There are some things in the game that are not punishing you enough in one manner and giving you too much reward compared to real life.  Hence why it's not really any less of a cheap exploit than some setup change, which everyone else could set up as well.   And it's not that the people who do setups are ******* who just use some exploit, it's that some things you need to be able to set up also IRL to allow you to set the balance of the car the way you need.  Even if you only have limited setup ability on the car you can do a lot in the right direction.

 

So no, this isn't about protecting rare snowflakes, it's about the fact that the eSport is not organized correctly for the competition, and that fewer of the best will be present in the quarters.  It favors people who always run stock especially to get through, but for what purpose when in the final they won't be able to win on stock setup? (most likely).    It's very basic logic.  The competition is set up for publicity first, and results second.  This is my point.  I also like the fact that everyone and their cat can get a shot, but not actually at the expense of chaos and chance as well as bad design meaning that one or two better drivers might not advance due to it.  my2c,  no sense in me repeating the same points I think.  CM and the organizer put one thing in front of the other for their reasons, in a hard logical sense it's a mistake for an optimal competition.  That's all.

Edited by bn880
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Fixed setups are the best because everyone is under the exact same parameters and it comes down to how well a driver can adapt to it, as any elite driver would.

plus, im laughing at all y'all spending all that time perfecting your setups before knowing the full regulations.  no one to blame but yourself.

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On 9/12/2019 at 3:41 PM, bn880 said:

Don't forget guys, that reaching the peak stage times in the game is also relying on exploits of the physics simulation.  There are some things in the game that are not punishing you enough in one manner and giving you too much reward compared to real life.  Hence why it's not really any less of a cheap exploit than some setup change, which everyone else could set up as well.   And it's not that the people who do setups are ******* who just use some exploit, it's that some things you need to be able to set up also IRL to allow you to set the balance of the car the way you need.  Even if you only have limited setup ability on the car you can do a lot in the right direction.

I think you confirmed that is something wrong with reaching the peak stages time like its something shouldn’t happen in first place if i am not mistaken, we all want a real rally competition, if the organizer make the stages not able to practice in any how, I would never be here to argue about setup changes.

On 9/12/2019 at 3:41 PM, bn880 said:

It favors people who always run stock especially to get through, but for what purpose when in the final they won't be able to win on stock setup? (most likely).    It's very basic logic.

How can you tell?! the finals stages aren’t yet announced! If the organizer didn’t give them enough time to fit their car setup to destroy who can’t setting, then no you can’t tell! Otherwise if they did, then yes I would agree.

Edited by stcooza

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23 hours ago, stcooza said:

How can you tell?! the finals stages aren’t yet announced! If the organizer didn’t give them enough time to fit their car setup to destroy who can’t setting, then no you can’t tell! Otherwise if they did, then yes I would agree.

You're just wrong here, I can tell just from understanding the situation and setups better.  You can learn to set up the various cars, you can have an understanding of car setups overall which you can employ at any time.  Also in general the setups are almost identical between stages in the same event.  Few small adaptations here and there which you can make if you know how to set up.

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8 hours ago, bn880 said:

You're just wrong here, I can tell just from understanding the situation and setups better.  You can learn to set up the various cars, you can have an understanding of car setups overall which you can employ at any time.  Also in general the setups are almost identical between stages in the same event.  Few small adaptations here and there which you can make if you know how to set up.

But they are may not be able to practice and set their flawless runs in any how before the finales, so one of the players who can’t setup could/couldn’t smash one of the players who can setup because they are racing below the stage time limit. That’s what i’m try to say.

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