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Is there any chance DIRT 2/3 handling will return in the future?

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1 hour ago, Gregow said:

Yes, rwd cars in DR are harder to drive than they should because of lack of feedback from the game and the fact they don't behave as rwd cars should. That's not hardcore. It's an artificial problem caused by the games physics.

What is wrong with RWD? The RWD feels really good to me and I could drive them pretty good without DR training. So at least they have similar handling like in other games.

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8 minutes ago, Johnnnn said:

What is wrong with RWD? The RWD feels really good to me and I could drive them pretty good without DR training. So at least they have similar handling like in other games.

Well, there aren't really many games that are worth comparing to. I elaborated a bit more on this in the 'Tarmac Physics and FFB'-thread. Although drunk driving my phone, I think that should give you an idea of the issues I have with rwd.

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1 hour ago, Gregow said:

WRC 8 is significantly more arcade than this game

Where did you get that idea from? It is most definitely not any more or less "arcade" than DR2.0 is. 

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2 minutes ago, Pfei said:

Where did you get that idea from? It is most definitely not any more or less "arcade" than DR2.0 is. 

Friend, you have misquoted me. I was not the one who wrote that.

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3 minutes ago, Gregow said:

Friend, you have misquoted me. I was not the one who wrote that.

You're right. I must have quoted within the quote. Sorry about that. @ianismwas the one who wrote that. That's who I was trying to quote. 

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So I tried WRC8 and it seemed easier for my casual skills :classic_biggrin: I even was first on middle difficulty! 🏁

But there is no fun from such handling "on edge". So, DIRT 2/3 remain unbeatable arcade rally games!

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On 10/5/2019 at 4:26 PM, Gregow said:

Speak for yourself, not others. RBR is dependent on mods, what cars you use and on which tracks you use them. It's full of flaws and it's old and outdated. Still, it has aspects that DR lacks 

Like, cross a ford. Hit it wrong and/or too fast and you will damage the car, bounce off track and crash. You can mess up the front, or rear or both. Depends on how you attack it.

Go over a jump and the car can twist, the nose can dive or the rear will come too high. Depends on your approach.

You can't just go full throttle or chase the highest speed. You must always have a measured approach. 

Bumps, crests, road camber, pot holes etc upset the car, or can be used to your advantage, in a way that doesn't exist in DR.

Dirt Rally is tame in comparison.

Yes, rwd cars in DR are harder to drive than they should because of lack of feedback from the game and the fact they don't behave as rwd cars should. That's not hardcore. It's an artificial problem caused by the games physics.

It's not about difficulty level per se. It's easy to make a game hard to play. That doesn't make it more realistic. But neither does making the handling more casual make it more realistic.

Thing is, DR is not punishing where it should be. Sometimes it's punishing where it should not.

Ok then try going full throttle and chase highest speeds in DR2.0, I wish you good luck. I can guarantee, you won't be able to finish one single stage. RBR might have aspects that you think DR2.0 lacks. Your opinion, fine. I haven't read one plausible argument so far, just claims and personal opinions, that outside of this forum seem to be very popular, nothing more. 

DR2.0 might seem to be tame in comparison to RBR but that just means that the physics in RBR are outdated. It's a 14 year old game, today's tech is much more advanced, and that's why I think DR2.0 is closer to the real thing. Cars drive even better IRL. Any video of real rally proves that. I said this before, ECU controlled active diffs were banned from WRC 13 years ago because basically it had become too easy to drive fast in rally cars (ofc cost reduction was one of the key factors here too).

That there's not enough feedback in RWD is also just an opinion. I disagree, I think it's brilliant.

Edited by richie
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Actually every car should be easy to drive... when going slow. Going on the edge is another case. And there is a main difference. I don't need to go deeper into simulation aspects asking if DR2 simulates properly tire and brakes temperatures impacting their efficiency, moving liquids (ie fuel) in tanks impacting a car balance end probably a lot more if we forget issues in handling on tarmac/ice/water

The main point is, that thousands of casual players can go competitive in the game, while driving real car the same way they would be ****** in a moment. Simply the game don't develop enough scare and care about a car as should be. Everything is easy, recoverable. you can drive cars with one hand still finishing first. Price of mistakes is close to none.

I don't remember if RBR's handling is more demanding. but for sure every mistake costs a lot.

BTW in real life nobody would go through fast and bumpy/jumpy roads like Finland flat out. Guess why. 

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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4 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

 

The main point is, that thousands of casual players can go competitive in the game, while driving real car the same way they would be ****** in a moment. Simply the game don't develop enough scare and care about a car as should be. Everything is easy, recoverable. you can drive cars with one hand still finishing first. Price of mistakes is close to none.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'go competitive'. I highly doubt we will be seeing one single casual player in the quarter finals of the World Series. 

The price you pay for mistakes regarding damage, I agree, could be higher, but the physics and handling of the game are punishing enough. You skim the fence just a tiny bit on a narrow road at New Zealand and you'll find yourself either upside down or facing the wrong direction, stage over. Before a jump you better straighten your line as much as possible because otherwise you'll be needing some luck to keep going. I don't even know why we need to discuss this, you play the game, the proof is there and I experience all this every day I start the game. 

4 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

 

BTW in real life nobody would go through fast and bumpy/jumpy roads like Finland flat out. Guess why. 

Meanwhile in real life. 

 

Pretty much DR2.0 gameplay right there! ^^

Edited by richie
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The balance is pretty good and they could have gone very arcade with it. So I'm glad they have it how it is.

If the handling is too difficult, turn all the assists on and practice. It's a rally game and the surfaces make driving difficult. That's the point.

I'm very thankful they didn't dumb it way down like the F1 team did for that title.  There are Tons of arcade racers out there.

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41 minutes ago, richie said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'go competitive'. I highly doubt we will be seeing one single casual player in the quarter finals of the World Series. 

Don't want to hurt anyone feelings. But IMO World Series attendees are arcade players, likely mostly exploiting game/physics imperfections. If you have objections, I would like to see them if not in real car, then on the stage they had never seen before.

Quote

The price you pay for mistakes regarding damage, I agree, it could be more hardcore, but the physics and handling of the game are punishing enough.

It could be enough for you. But I'm talking about how punishing it is comparing to real life. And I'm saying not enough. Cars stop too quickly even sliding sideways. If you don't jump directly to the tree (because co-pilot forget to warn you) you likely can recover from most situations. Guess why: too much grip. And this is what bothers me mostly.

41 minutes ago, richie said:

Meanwhile in real life. 

I knew you don't get it. I'm not talking about single jump a driver is prepared to, he lift up a throttle when airborne etc. I'm talking about locations where a car goes airborne every 2nd second, revving an engine, hitting ground hard to jump into air again and again. Again: without consequences. And it's just the  single example. Nobody in real life drive cars this way. Even performance cars. They always try to prevent unnecessary wearing.

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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I can't take that seriously anymore. i'm wondering where that condescending and arrogant attitude comes from. I bet the World Series is so easy for you. As a hardcore super simracer you don't even bother competing with those arcade gamers. smh I really hope some of the top guys read that garbage here and comment because it's ridiculous. 

I posted that video to show you what's going on in real life racing because it appears you have no idea and yet you want to tell people what's realistic and what's not. 

I think it doesn't matter what people say. You just keep playing the same record again and again. Useless. 

Edited by richie

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15 minutes ago, richie said:

I can't take that seriously anymore. i'm wondering where that condescending and arrogant attitude comes from. I bet the World Series is so easy for you

LOL.It's you who draws association between arcade and disrespect.
Saying that a competition is more arcade than simulation has nothing to do with disrespect or arrogance.

And remember it was you who put eSports into quotation, not me. And how it's related to how much simulation is the DR2.

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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I didn't say disrespect, I said condescending and arrogant. That's different. I was just wondering where that comes from, that's all. I see that often, when people run out of arguments they start throwing words like 'arcade' into discussions. It just doesn't add anything to any discussion here, it just shows the confusion and stubbornness, of which there is quite a lot in the gaming 'community'. 

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2 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

you can drive cars with one hand still finishing first

****, if it was so easy I wouldn't create this thread :classic_laugh:

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5 hours ago, richie said:

Ok then try going full throttle and chase highest speeds in DR2.0, I wish you good luck. I can guarantee, you won't be able to finish one single stage. RBR might have aspects that you think DR2.0 lacks. Your opinion, fine. I haven't read one plausible argument so far, just claims and personal opinions, that outside of this forum seem to be very popular, nothing more. 

DR2.0 might seem to be tame in comparison to RBR but that just means that the physics in RBR are outdated. It's a 14 year old game, today's tech is much more advanced, and that's why I think DR2.0 is closer to the real thing. Cars drive even better IRL. Any video of real rally proves that. I said this before, ECU controlled active diffs were banned from WRC 13 years ago because basically it had become too easy to drive fast in rally cars (ofc cost reduction was one of the key factors here too).

That there's not enough feedback in RWD is also just an opinion. I disagree, I think it's brilliant.

When you're forming your opinion and making claims about RBR, it would be prudent to actually play the game - both vanilla and Next Gen Physics mod. Perhaps then you would get what I'm saying about differences in how you approach the driving.

Real cars get upset by bumps and jumps in the road. Treat them casually and you will crash and damage the car. The camber of the road has a big impact and can be used to your advantage. Dirt Rally simplifies this a lot. You think that's just my opinion? When was the last time you landed on one wheel after a jump? Or going nose first? Or landing hard on the rear wheels? Answer is, you have to go completely out of control to manage that.

Edited by Gregow
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On 10/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, richie said:

I haven't played RBR obviously as I'm a console noob

RBR released on the Platstation 2 and Xbox consoles as well. It actually wasnt a well recieved title, but now it has a cult following. A lot of people do look on it with rose tinted glasses now, as is always evident in dicussions about what makes a rally game more "realistic", "hardcore" or "arcade". Fact of the matter is though, the simpliest of arcade racers to the most hardcore and realistic simulation title available on the market; all require practice to be good at. The people who practice will have a higher skill floor than those that dont or cant practice. Though some people do have a natural aptitude and adaptability for racing games. A lot of people just put far too much emphasis on arbitrary things like how hardcore, arcade or real a game is, and at the end of the day; they are all still video games.

On 10/5/2019 at 12:06 PM, Johnnnn said:

I guess many talk about some physics helpers which shoudn't be in a proper sim

How do you mean "physics helpers"?
I have to assume you mean the driver aids, such as ABS, TCS, and STM?
If so, I have never seen what the issue is with them. Codemasters, just like any racing game developer, need to add in accesibility. Total full on 1:1 simulation would only be for a very nich market of players, so from a buisness standpoint; would make zero sense to leave out options that invite other players into the game.

 

On 10/5/2019 at 11:24 AM, mesa said:

There is no better simulation for rallying nowdays.

Im not so sure its so cut and dry at this point. I grabbed WRC8, based on feedback from other people. And I have to be honest, it does a lot of things very well. I honestly think its up there with DR2.0 in terms of physics, the wheel force feedback is definetly on par. I think for the first time in a while, Codemasters actually have some competition on their hands.
 

On 10/5/2019 at 2:48 PM, Gregow said:

What I'm saying is if you try to drive a car in real life, like you do in Dirt Rally, you will crash very badly.

Debatable. This one is all going to come down to if its a normal person in a normal road car with zero IRL rally driving experience. To an actual rally driver in a spec rally car. Its a known fact that rally drivers tend to use techniques that unstick the rear of the car, to a point, on loose surfaces. In order to avoid understeer. And no matter which way you cut it, you have to do similar in Dirt Rally in order to avoid said understeer. I am not saying the physics simulation in Dirt Rally is perfect, because no racing game is. But the fact remains, you have to use real world rally driving techniques in order to do well.

 

On 10/5/2019 at 3:26 PM, Gregow said:

Like, cross a ford. Hit it wrong and/or too fast and you will damage the car, bounce off track and crash. You can mess up the front, or rear or both. Depends on how you attack it. 

Go over a jump and the car can twist, the nose can dive or the rear will come too high. Depends on your approach.

You can't just go full throttle or chase the highest speed. You must always have a measured approach.  

Bumps, crests, road camber, pot holes etc upset the car, or can be used to your advantage, in a way that doesn't exist in DR. 

Dirt Rally is tame in comparison.

I dont get it, this all happens in Dirt Rally also. Take the water ditch on Bindo Moorland at the bridge for example. You hit that wrong, you are off into the fences on the opposite side. Or at the very least, facing the wrong direction. Sometimes with some form of vehicle damage. Same goes for the water splash when you first enter the sweet lamb complex. That can throw you all over the place if you hit it wrong or with too much speed, from either side. Catch the snow banks on Sweden wrong, and you are going to damage the front of your car and have a potentially bad run. So again, it all depends on how you attack it.

If I am doing a time trial run, I go flat out. I drive as hard as I can, and push for anytime extra time I can manage to scrape together. Often resulting in mutiple ruined runs. Hitting a jump wrong, catching the edge of the track in an undisirable place, even braking too late. All often cause some form of loss of control. If I am running a Dirt Daily/weekly event, I tone my driving down so not to risk incurring damage or losing time from spinning out. Since I cant just reset and try again. Same goes for career. So I drive much more conservativly. So it is still all a matter of how far you are willing to push in a given situation.

On 10/5/2019 at 5:22 PM, Johnnnn said:

OK, will check it. I play on a controller and FFB is great on a gravel.

On a control pad, all you get is tactile feedback from the rumble motors. It is still feedback, but FFB usually equtes to the sensations sent to a force feedback racing wheel. Either way, that tactile feedback still helps; and is quite good in Dirt Rally.
 

6 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

The main point is, that thousands of casual players can go competitive in the game

 

5 hours ago, richie said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'go competitive'. I highly doubt we will be seeing one single casual player in the quarter finals of the World Series. 

 

4 hours ago, richie said:

I can't take that seriously anymore. i'm wondering where that condescending and arrogant attitude comes from. I bet the World Series is so easy for you. As a hardcore super simracer you don't even bother competing with those arcade gamers. smh I really hope some of the top guys read that garbage here and comment because it's ridiculous. 


I am not sure what you two equte as casual or hardcore, and I certainly wont be in the world series. As I only entered the qualifiers just to get the BMW. The allowance of corner cutting just put me off, but thats for the other topic on these forums. But in terms of time spent in game, bewteen Dirt Rally 1 and Dirt Rally 2.0. I only have about 224 hours (total) combined between both Dirt Rally titles. I got DR1 on the day the early access was dropped, and I barely put any time in with Dirt 1 through 4 (actually, I outright hate Dirt 1). So I would assume I fit the catagory as a "casual" in regards to Dirt Rally? based on such a low time in game and with the Dirt franchise in general. Most of my racing game focus over the years, has been in regards to tarmac circuit racing.

Why I have quoted these posts, is just to say that been a "casual" or a "hardcore" player of this (or any game); doesnt equate to the skill level a particular player has available to them. It doesnt mean they are fast or slow. It just means they play at their level in the time they have available to play. My skill level, as a casual, has me very often able to get into the top 200 on the LB in Dirt Rally; with some form of consistency. Often hitting times around the top 50, after just a few practice runs.

As examples -

VR-

Pre VR-

My point in this, is that casuals can and do have the required skill levels to compete at the very top levels. The issues comes down to how much desire an individual has to actually compete, and if they have the time to dedicate to it if they enter a competion. By the same token, there will be some very hardcore Dirt Rally fans out there that cant even break into the top 500. Because as said above, been casual or hardcore at a game; does not equte to skill level. Never has, never will.
-------------------------------------

I think what everyone in this thread has to remember, is that its just a game. Its meant to be played, its supposed to be fun. The handling isnt perfect in Dirt Rally, it also isnt perfect in RBR. It also isnt perfect in WRC8. Outside of that though, they all have things they simulate well, and things they dont. But honestly, its best to try and enjoy them all; and just have fun. Doesnt mean debate isnt important or needed though. But most of this stuff is based entirely on opinions when it comes down to the physics and handling mechanics, and usually from people who have never sat in a real race car. Myself included. So all most of us can really say is, "I prefer X title, because of Y reason".

 

Edited by Ialyrn

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11 minutes ago, Ialyrn said:

How do you mean "physics helpers"?
I have to assume you mean the driver aids, such as ABS, TCS, and STM?
If so, I have never seen what the issue is with them. Codemasters, just like any racing game developer, need to add in accesibility. Total full on 1:1 simulation would only be for a very nich market of players, so from a buisness standpoint; would make zero sense to leave out options that invite other players into the game.

 

On a control pad, all you get is tactile feedback from the rumble motors. It is still feedback, but FFB usually equtes to the sensations sent to a force feedback racing wheel. Either way, that tactile feedback still helps; and is quite good in Dirt Rally.

 

I meant something like in Forza Horizon. The physics are very similar to Motorsport but there is some invisible stabilization of the car. It could be based on physics data only so it's no simulation of driver aid. Something like big jump stabilizations but on a road.

And somebody on Steam, I guess, told about simulation is simulation so you don't need any helpers. You simulate right physics. Many people here has problem with some strange moving of the car - no simulation.

 

It's pretty good, because I feel the grip on a gas. You can't feel it on a gas but you have a wheel for it. It's everything I need for proper drifting.

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1 minute ago, Johnnnn said:

I meant something like in Forza Horizon. The physics are very similar to Motorsport but there is some invisible stabilization of the car. It could be based on physics data only so it's no simulation of driver aid. Something like big jump stabilizations but on a road.

Forza doesnt have a "physics helper", just so you are aware. What they do have however, is a number of hidden control pad assists that cant be fully turned off. These assists help in regards to things such as countersteering, as well as speed sensitivity while driving. The latter is specific to reducing the amount of steering you can put on at a faster speed, and the slower you go the more the wheels will turn. This is done in order to counteract the reduction in fidelity that a thumb stick provides. Simulation steering on Forza reduces/turns off some, but not all, of those control pad assists. When using a racing wheel in Forza, however, and directly according to the developers themselves. Those same hidden control pad assists are turned off entirely. There is some debate if thats actually 100% accurate or not, as they also state there shouldnt be a difference between normal and sim steering on a racing wheel; when there clearly is. But without inside knowledge, no one will ever be able to say for sure. But I digress, it isnt a physics helper, and the physics dont change based on what device you use to play the game. Just that the control pad has assistence layers in place in order to make the game actually playable on a control pad.

Codemasters most likely use a similar setup of hidden assists for control pad users, and I would assume most racing game developers do. But I can only speculate on that. A dev would have to clarify that, if they are willing and/or allowed to discuss those matters, in regards to Dirt Rally specifiaclly. Perhaps @PJTierney can ask if some information in this regard can be shared, in order to limit the speculative conjecture and potential misinformation that can often happen when discussions run onto these particular types of subjects?

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33 minutes ago, Ialyrn said:

Forza doesnt have a "physics helper", just so you are aware. What they do have however, is a number of hidden control pad assists that cant be fully turned off. These assists help in regards to things such as countersteering, as well as speed sensitivity while driving. The latter is specific to reducing the amount of steering you can put on at a faster speed, and the slower you go the more the wheels will turn. This is done in order to counteract the reduction in fidelity that a thumb stick provides. Simulation steering on Forza reduces/turns off some, but not all, of those control pad assists. When using a racing wheel in Forza, however, and directly according to the developers themselves. Those same hidden control pad assists are turned off entirely. There is some debate if thats actually 100% accurate or not, as they also state there shouldnt be a difference between normal and sim steering on a racing wheel; when there clearly is. But without inside knowledge, no one will ever be able to say for sure. But I digress, it isnt a physics helper, and the physics dont change based on what device you use to play the game. Just that the control pad has assistence layers in place in order to make the game actually playable on a control pad.

Codemasters most likely use a similar setup of hidden assists for control pad users, and I would assume most racing game developers do. But I can only speculate on that. A dev would have to clarify that, if they are willing and/or allowed to discuss those matters, in regards to Dirt Rally specifiaclly. Perhaps @PJTierney can ask if some information in this regard can be shared, in order to limit the speculative conjecture and potential misinformation that can often happen when discussions run onto these particular types of subjects?

Yeah, you are right. It's very unclear what is going on in Forza because communication is none. But I meant physics helper. Like the jumps. You want some gameplay but your physics would destroy it.

The same for DR2. Many people say car is like hovercraft without real tire simulation. I don't know because it's good enough for me. So you have some physics but it doesn't work with gameplay. So you use few fakes. That's the main problem with DR physics what I read everywhere.

I agree it should be more clear. Or maybe with DR3 for HC fans only.

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12 hours ago, Johnnnn said:

Many people say car is like hovercraft without real tire simulation

Exactly my thoughts since CMR Rally 3 or 4.

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18 hours ago, Gregow said:

 

Real cars get upset by bumps and jumps in the road. Treat them casually and you will crash and damage the car. The camber of the road has a big impact and can be used to your advantage. Dirt Rally simplifies this a lot. You think that's just my opinion? When was the last time you landed on one wheel after a jump? Or going nose first? Or landing hard on the rear wheels? Answer is, you have to go completely out of control to manage that.

Honestly, I don't know because usually if I mess up a jump in 90% of the cases I have to restart the stage because I crashed. Generally, airborne physics is also an area where DR2.0 has vastly improved compared to the first game, and at this point, even if cars do not land on one wheel or nose first, what does this prove? Nothing. By having to cherrypick scenarios that happen in real life to prove your point, you only prove one thing: It's close enough to the real thing. No game can simulate everything that happens IRL. Literally every single scenario you mentioned in previous posts is also happening in the game. 

Edited by richie
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46 minutes ago, richie said:

Honestly, I don't know because usually if I mess up a jump in 90% of the cases I have to restart the stage because I crashed. Generally, airborne physics is also an area where DR2.0 has vastly improved compared to the first game, and at this point, even if cars do not land on one wheel or nose first, what does this prove? Nothing. By having to cherrypick scenarios that happen in real life to prove your point, you only prove one thing: It's close enough to the real thing. No game can simulate everything that happens IRL. Literally every single scenario you mentioned in previous posts is also happening in the game. 

Oh, you restart in mid air - do you? Yeah, DR2 improved from the first game. Considering the first Dirt Rally hade better air control than Quake World, that's not saying much. So Codemasters gave the cars more weight, removed the air control aspect, and now we have cars that are too stable.

Cherrypicking? Here's a list of my ciriticisms:

Center pivot

Tire modeling or lack thereof is weird. It lacks real forces acting on the tires.

Road camber very little effect.

Bumps and jumps don't upset the cars enough - they're too stable.

I can also add that the surface model makes it difficult to maintain slides with the cars. On the one hand it's nice to replicate the progression of grip when you slide and load the outside tires, but it also makes the cars more prone to grip and straighten out than they should.

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14 minutes ago, Gregow said:

Oh, you restart in mid air - do you? Yeah, DR2 improved from the first game. Considering the first Dirt Rally hade better air control than Quake World, that's not saying much. So Codemasters gave the cars more weight, removed the air control aspect, and now we have cars that are too stable.

Cherrypicking? Here's a list of my ciriticisms:

Center pivot

Tire modeling or lack thereof is weird. It lacks real forces acting on the tires.

Road camber very little effect.

Bumps and jumps don't upset the cars enough - they're too stable.

I can also add that the surface model makes it difficult to maintain slides with the cars. On the one hand it's nice to replicate the progression of grip when you slide and load the outside tires, but it also makes the cars more prone to grip and straighten out than they should.

The rally video's still there to watch for everyone. The evidence is there, how someone still can go on with that nonsensical narrative, is beyond me. Rally cars are stable. They're even more stable than in DR2.0. 

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