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Is there any chance DIRT 2/3 handling will return in the future?

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I respect Codies trying to satisfy needs of hardcore racers. But there are also many arcade lovers, like me, who missed DIRT series so much! Is there any chance of returning that brilliant DIRT2/3 formula? Thanks. 

Edited by lastbreath
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Dirt 4 is not similar? I bought it recently and it's relatively far from DR2 on simulation. Can't even imagine how it is on normal handling.

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Not for everybody. For casual players.

Maybe I would spend more time in DIRT4 but its copy-paste tracks were a joke.

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Yeah, but it's always good to have handling for bigger audience if possible. I like simulation in Dirt 4 in lower speeds but in higher it feels strange. So I can imagine it could be good with some assists and no simulation. But I haven't played Dirt 1, 2 or 3.

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Currently I play on consoles only and Dirts have 30 FPS only. But it looks fine on Youtube. I love current generation - 4K with 60 FPS.

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As for me 4K is absolutely useless feature that demands extra resources which could be used for better detalisation or physics.

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4K is for racing pretty good. I always like more FPS. 120 would be much better so maybe next gen.

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It's so simple.

Dirt series with a number (ex. Dirt 2/3/4) are made for casual/arcade players.
Dirt series with the tag "Rally" (ex. Dirt Rally / Dirt Rally 2.0) are made for hardcore players.

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12 minutes ago, mesa said:

Dirt series with the tag "Rally" (ex. Dirt Rally / Dirt Rally 2.0) are made for hardcore playersÔĽŅ.

I would be very careful with hardcore term. Its far from proper simulation in a lot of areas. Yep, it's enjoyable, might be enjoyable by hardcore players. 
But I would never say it's made for them. It's somewhere in the middle between arcade and hardcore sim.

Edited by MaXyMsrpl

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46 minutes ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

I would be very careful with hardcore term. Its far from proper simulation in a lot of areas. Yep, it's enjoyable, might be enjoyable by hardcore players. 
But I would never say it's made for them. It's somewhere in the middle between arcade and hardcore sim.

I completely agree. My biggest disappointment with DR is that it's far too arcade.

Not saying the games are bad and unenjoyable, but I'd say they're far off from being hardcore. Actually, not even in the same universe.

I long for the day of a real spiritual successor to RBR. Not saying it's still the best in realism. But, it was a game that did it's very best to be the most realistic. No excuses whatsoever. This is rally, just deal with it. You needed the rally school not to rage quit the game and never play again.

That's hardcore.

Not saying difficulty equals realism, but real rally is gosh darn hard. RBR never gave a ****, it just did it's best to be real. And that's why it's legend.

Dirt Rally... sorry, but it's made to stroke your ego and make you feel good.

Edited by Gregow

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1 hour ago, Gregow said:

I completely agree. My biggest disappointment with DR is that it's far too arcade.

Not saying the games are bad and unenjoyable, but I'd say they're far off from being hardcore. Actually, not even in the same universe.

I long for the day of a real spiritual successor to RBR. Not saying it's still the best in realism. But, it was a game that did it's very best to be the most realistic. No excuses whatsoever. This is rally, just deal with it. You needed the rally school not to rage quit the game and never play again.

That's hardcore.

Not saying difficulty equals realism, but real rally is gosh darn hard. RBR never gave a ****, it just did it's best to be real. And that's why it's legend.

Dirt Rally... sorry, but it's made to stroke your ego and make you feel good.

Oh, so I see you've breezed through masters in the career mode then?

but yeah, DR and the current game aren't as hardcore as they could be because the series became popular as an arcade series. there's still a lot of name recognition with the Dirt franchise among less hardcore gamers. so that's why the menus are nice. that's why there's less information about what's going on "under the hood" of the game than there should be (stuff like part wear and damage, tire wear, stage degradation, etc are all more complicated than they appear, and there's no information about it).

I'm not saying it's a good thing. it just is what it is.

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11 hours ago, mesa said:

Dirt series with a number (ex. Dirt 2/3/4) are made for casual/arcade players.
Dirt series with the tag "Rally" (ex. Dirt Rally / Dirt Rally 2.0) are made for hardcore players.

DIRT4 was made for none of them :classic_laugh:

 

10 hours ago, Gregow said:

Dirt Rally... sorry, but it's made to stroke your ego and make you feel good

When I'm playing Dirt Rally my ego is somewhere in the nearest ditch, that's why I need another DIRT 2/3 :classic_laugh:

Edited by lastbreath

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9 hours ago, ianism said:

Oh, so I see you've breezed through masters in the career mode then?

but yeah, DR and the current game aren't as hardcore as they could be because the series became popular as an arcade series. there's still a lot of name recognition with the Dirt franchise among less hardcore gamers. so that's why the menus are nice. that's why there's less information about what's going on "under the hood" of the game than there should be (stuff like part wear and damage, tire wear, stage degradation, etc are all more complicated than they appear, and there's no information about it).

I'm not saying it's a good thing. it just is what it is.

Simulation is very complicated because you can simulate almost everything. The question if it makes sense. Every simulation needs some resources and if the gameplay then is worse it's not that good. So I don't think current DR2 is a compromise from simulation level but rather from development one. I read here something about tires and it didn't work well while testing?

Another problem is size of the market. Was RBR so successful to create RBR2? I don't know but I bought it day 1.

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12 hours ago, MaXyMsrpl said:

I would be very careful with hardcore term. Its far from proper simulation in a lot of areas. Yep, it's enjoyable, might be enjoyable by hardcore players. 
But I would never say it's made for them. It's somewhere in the middle between arcade and hardcore sim.

There is no better simulation for rallying nowdays. We already know RBR is the king forever and ever, but already dead for a while. Time is going by. So this theme is pointless.

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I haven't played RBR obviously as I'm a console noob but I have seen some gameplay and to me it just looks so outdated in every aspect. Anyone who has watched real rallying will agree, DR2.0 is far superior in terms of handling and physics. Hardcore damage could use some tweaks though, as I feel it really is a bit too forgiving. 

I find it interesting that people who were complaining about spinning out too much a few days ago now say 'sorry guys, but it's too easy, it's made to make you feel good'. I agree, DR2.0 makes me feel really good as it is so much fun and an absolute blast to drive. So rewarding when you get it right, and so punishing if you make a tiny mistake. The devs did an amazing job in improving handling and physics. 

 

Edited by richie

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2 hours ago, lastbreath said:

DIRT4 was made for none of them :classic_laugh:

that was exactly the problem with the game. it was marketed to both casual and hardcore players, but it wasn't hardcore enough for the latter group and it was too deep and not flashy enough for the casuals. DR2 is also trying to do both of these things (though it does it much better) and it is part of the reason why the reaction to it has been mixed...

Edited by ianism

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15 minutes ago, richie said:

I haven't played RBR obviously as I'm a console noob but I have seen some gameplay and to me it just looks so outdated in every aspect. Anyone who has watched real rallying will agree, DR2.0 is far superior in terms of handling and physics. Hardcore damage could use some tweaks though, as I feel it really is a bit too forgiving. 

I find it interesting that people who were complaining about spinning out too much a few days ago now say 'sorry guys, but it's too easy, it's made to make you feel good'. I agree, DR2.0 makes me feel really good as it is an absolute blast to drive. So rewarding when you get it right, and so punishing if you make a tiny mistake. The devs did an amazing job in improving handling and physics. 

 

I think it could simulate more things. But DR2 could have less but better. It's complicated. But I guess many talk about some physics helpers which shoudn't be in a proper sim.

And consoles are great. For players and developers too ūüėČ

I agree with controls satisfaction. It's so good.

 

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13 hours ago, ianism said:

Oh, so I see you've breezed through masters in the career mode then?

but yeah, DR and the current game aren't as hardcore as they could be because the series became popular as an arcade series. there's still a lot of name recognition with the Dirt franchise among less hardcore gamers. so that's why the menus are nice. that's why there's less information about what's going on "under the hood" of the game than there should be (stuff like part wear and damage, tire wear, stage degradation, etc are all more complicated than they appear, and there's no information about it).

I'm not saying it's a good thing. it just is what it is.

No, I have not breezed through it and that's not an indication of how hardcore (or not) the driving is.

What I'm saying is if you try to drive a car in real life, like you do in Dirt Rally, you will crash very badly. And it's not because the lack of g-forces when playing the game, or lack of feeling the bumps in the road or any such thing. It's because the game is made easier to drive than it should be, and the cars don't behave quite as they should.

That's what I mean by the game not being hardcore, and that it strokes your ego.

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3 hours ago, richie said:

I haven't played RBR obviously as I'm a console noob but I have seen some gameplay and to me it just looks so outdated in every aspect. Anyone who has watched real rallying will agree, DR2.0 is far superior in terms of handling and physics. Hardcore damage could use some tweaks though, as I feel it really is a bit too forgiving. 

I find it interesting that people who were complaining about spinning out too much a few days ago now say 'sorry guys, but it's too easy, it's made to make you feel good'. I agree, DR2.0 makes me feel really good as it is so much fun and an absolute blast to drive. So rewarding when you get it right, and so punishing if you make a tiny mistake. The devs did an amazing job in improving handling and physics. 

 

Speak for yourself, not others. RBR is dependent on mods, what cars you use and on which tracks you use them. It's full of flaws and it's old and outdated. Still, it has aspects that DR lacks 

Like, cross a ford. Hit it wrong and/or too fast and you will damage the car, bounce off track and crash. You can mess up the front, or rear or both. Depends on how you attack it.

Go over a jump and the car can twist, the nose can dive or the rear will come too high. Depends on your approach.

You can't just go full throttle or chase the highest speed. You must always have a measured approach. 

Bumps, crests, road camber, pot holes etc upset the car, or can be used to your advantage, in a way that doesn't exist in DR.

Dirt Rally is tame in comparison.

Yes, rwd cars in DR are harder to drive than they should because of lack of feedback from the game and the fact they don't behave as rwd cars should. That's not hardcore. It's an artificial problem caused by the games physics.

It's not about difficulty level per se. It's easy to make a game hard to play. That doesn't make it more realistic. But neither does making the handling more casual make it more realistic.

Thing is, DR is not punishing where it should be. Sometimes it's punishing where it should not.

Edited by Gregow
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42 minutes ago, Gregow said:

No, I have not breezed through it and that's not an indication of how hardcore (or not) the driving is.

What I'm saying is if you try to drive a car in real life, like you do in Dirt Rally, you will crash very badly. And it's not because the lack of g-forces when playing the game, or lack of feeling the bumps in the road or any such thing. It's because the game is made easier to drive than it should be, and the cars don't behave quite as they should.

That's what I mean by the game not being hardcore, and that it strokes your ego.

driving a car in a game is never going to be like driving in real life, because your life and your money (repair costs) are never going to be at risk. the extent to which a driving game punishes you for pushing the limits of control is a matter of degree and personal preference.

the whole point of playing video games in general is to "stroke your ego". some games that are super hard are hard for the sense of accomplishment when you win. other games give you a sense of accomplishment for getting through the story or collecting all the gems or whatever. it's all very similar. the racing game Midnight Club 2 is arcade as hell, but it's also hard as hell because it requires crazy reaction times, control of the car, and knowledge of the cities. getting good in the game is stroking your ego. RBR is no exception, it just happens to fit your definition of "hardcore".

this applies to tons of stuff. a few years ago, I was a rickshaw rider in Edinburgh. I could pull a 3-wheeled bike up a hill with three fat englishmen up a 15% gradient using only the muscles in my own body. I could do this for 8 hours straight, from 20h00-04h00, two nights in a row. it felt good to be strong and making money in a fun way. that is a very similar sense of accomplishment. just because the game isn't the way you personally like it doesn't mean other people get the same sense of accomplishment in DR2 that you get from doing well in RBR, or someone else gets from climbing a mountain. it's all "stroking your ego". that's just what most leisure activities are. 

 

4 minutes ago, Gregow said:

Thing is, DR is not punishing where it should be. Sometimes it's punishing where it should not.

this is the problem with your argument. you say it "should" be more punishing. this is because it does not quite fit your definition of the ideal rally game: one that is as realistic and uncompromising as possible. this is because the sense of accomplishment you personally get out of a game like that is higher than other types of racing games. 

obviously, this is not the case for other people who are playing the game. the youtuber Jimmy Broadbent is super into sim games and is very good at them, but he now prefers WRC 8 over DR2 when it comes to rally. WRC 8 is significantly more arcade than this game, yet he prefers the sense of accomplishment he gets out of that game over the one in DR2, and all power to him.

so yeah, speak for yourself, not others.

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34 minutes ago, ianism said:

driving a car in a game is never going to be like driving in real life, because your life and your money (repair costs) are never going to be at risk. the extent to which a driving game punishes you for pushing the limits of control is a matter of degree and personal preference.

the whole point of playing video games in general is to "stroke your ego". some games that are super hard are hard for the sense of accomplishment when you win. other games give you a sense of accomplishment for getting through the story or collecting all the gems or whatever. it's all very similar. the racing game Midnight Club 2 is arcade as hell, but it's also hard as hell because it requires crazy reaction times, control of the car, and knowledge of the cities. getting good in the game is stroking your ego. RBR is no exception, it just happens to fit your definition of "hardcore".

this applies to tons of stuff. a few years ago, I was a rickshaw rider in Edinburgh. I could pull a 3-wheeled bike up a hill with three fat englishmen up a 15% gradient using only the muscles in my own body. I could do this for 8 hours straight, from 20h00-04h00, two nights in a row. it felt good to be strong and making money in a fun way. that is a very similar sense of accomplishment. just because the game isn't the way you personally like it doesn't mean other people get the same sense of accomplishment in DR2 that you get from doing well in RBR, or someone else gets from climbing a mountain. it's all "stroking your ego". that's just what most leisure activities are. 

 

this is the problem with your argument. you say it "should" be more punishing. this is because it does not quite fit your definition of the ideal rally game: one that is as realistic and uncompromising as possible. this is because the sense of accomplishment you personally get out of a game like that is higher than other types of racing games. 

obviously, this is not the case for other people who are playing the game. the youtuber Jimmy Broadbent is super into sim games and is very good at them, but he now prefers WRC 8 over DR2 when it comes to rally. WRC 8 is significantly more arcade than this game, yet he prefers the sense of accomplishment he gets out of that game over the one in DR2, and all power to him.

so yeah, speak for yourself, not others.

You're arguing against your own straw man, not anything I've said.

While you can't make a game drive exactly as real life, the goal of a simulator is to make the experience as close as possible. Dirt Rally does not and I doubt it was ever the purpose. Thus, it is not "hardcore" (as a sim). We can put whatever label we want on it. Arcade, simcade or whatever. Doesn't really matter.

You like it that way? Cool. I like the game too but it seems we have different preferences. That's also cool.

However, it is not a hardcore sim. I wish it was. You don't. Fine.

I like WRC 8 too and in some ways it's more sim than DR. In others, it's not. I'll just wait for it to get patched before committing too much time to it. 

Ps. And the "speak for yourself" was directed at the comment that "anyone who's watched real rally...".

Edited by Gregow

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