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Watered down damage.

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Just now, Bluestig said:

To be clear I’m talking about visual aspects of damage like deformation and cracks and holes in bumpers etc. Mechanical damage ofc wasn’t the best ever in Grid series.  

Yes, I know. This whole thread is about the lacking visual damage, as were my comments about Grid 1. Grid is an arcade racing series.

Still, I think Grid 2019 is too arcade, tbh. The F1 R26 feels almost the same to drive as the Nascar crapolas. 😂 (This is by design, as stated in an IGN interview.)

1 minute ago, Bluestig said:

At this point we’ll just have to wait for games with unlicensed cars to have good damage. 

This is a myth that should stop spreading around. It's simply not true (and has been debunked by race sim developers on Reddit).

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1 minute ago, Leo Natan said:

 

This is a myth that should stop spreading around. It's simply not true (and has been debunked by race sim developers on Reddit).

Then what do you think is the reason for the damage downgrade? 

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4 minutes ago, Bluestig said:

Then what do you think is the reason for the damage downgrade? 

Same as the downgrades to visual fidelity and performance—developers didn't finish using the features that the engine already supports. That's what I believe. They probably did a calculated assessment that their target audience doesn't really care, and you can see it from the responses here in the damage, graphics and cockpit thread, they are replying it with "dis amazomg gaem, look amaze, i see no probs lol" comments.

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This is the extent of damage that can be done in the new game:

Now compare it to GAS on IOS i.e a MOBILE GAME:

Surely it’s not a technical issue. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

Same as the downgrades to visual fidelity and performance—developers didn't finish using the features that the engine already supports. That's what I believe. They probably did a calculated assessment that their target audience doesn't really care, and you can see it from the responses here in the damage, graphics and cockpit thread, they are replying it with "dis amazomg gaem, look amaze, i see no probs lol" comments.

I get what you’re saying but then why did they spend time polishing the new carbon fibre effects and such. Might as well not bother with them either. 

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3 minutes ago, Bluestig said:

I get what you’re saying but then why did they spend time polishing the new carbon fibre effects and such. Might as well not bother with them either. 

Maybe time constraints didn't allow for finishing it? I don't know. Only the development team knows why all those mishaps happened with this title, and they are not transparent about it.

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10 minutes ago, Bluestig said:

I get what you’re saying but then why did they spend time polishing the new carbon fibre effects and such. Might as well not bother with them either. 

In fact, why would they even invest in the damage model for this game, if they knew from the start the manufacturers don't allow proper damage? It's an easy scapegoat, but not one founded in reality.

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2 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

In fact, why would they even invest in the damage model for this game, if they knew from the start the manufacturers don't allow proper damage? It's an easy scapegoat, but not one founded in reality.

All I have to say is manufacturers definitely have a say in things like damage. You think they would just go like “yeah sure you can split the audi in two halves and make it burst into flames lol”? They absolutely have a say in things. If not then why does literally every game with licensed vehicles have a “polite” damage model? All games like Burnout, Gta , wreckfest, beamng etc have a thing in common. They have made up brands. Sure you could say wreckfest and beamng lack financial resources to license but even if they could it won’t be possible. Every manufacturer has different guidelines. Some are lenient and some (like ferrari) are ultra strict. Some say do whatever you want and some say: no smoke, no parts falling, no crumpling beyond passenger compartments etc etc. 

Now what I suspect happened is Codies got new licenses which were stricter than usual resulting in dragging down damage standards across the board since if they make one car damage more than another there would be legal issues. So they decided to downgrade all across the board. My suggestion would be only select brands more cooperative with damage. It’s not like codies had to license 567 different brands like Gt or Forza.

Now we have worst of both worlds: limited damage and limited brands. I’d rather have it like : limited brands good damage or lots of brands limited damage. Not worst of both worlds. 

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Again, Ferrari has participated in games with realistic damage models.

There was a little-known game called Ferrari Project, also by SMS, also running on the NFS Shift / Project Cars engine. That one had the full damage model from Shift, which was satisfying enough. And that game was really a show piece for Ferrari vehicles over the years.

I really can't agree here. But you know what, let's assume this is true, and some exotic licensee blocked the damage model. Since this game, like the original Grid and Grid 2, is a street-racing game, the right thing to do would have been to either delay or elect not to go through with the contract. The integrity of the project should come before the desire to see cool brand X in it. 🤷‍♂️ That's what I believe anyway. But I don't think this is the case.

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3 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

Again, Ferrari has participated in games with realistic damage models.

There was a little-known game called Ferrari Project, also by SMS, also running on the NFS Shift / Project Cars engine. 

Not a good example. Barely any deformation and can’t see it being that good a damage model as well. I’m not saying they don’t allow any damage at all. Ferrari has damage in Grid as well. What I’m saying is it’s alot more limited. That’s why codies probably had to tone back damage across the board. Show me one game with licensed cars that allows your car to be blown up or split in pieces. It’s not possible. What is possible is some damage within restrictions of the contracts. Funny thing is asseto devs came up with the whole “ no restrictions for damage” thing and yet they have bog standard damage? Surely just a PR move to keep manufacturers happy. 

8 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

 

I really can't agree here. But you know what, let's assume this is true, and some exotic licensee blocked the damage model. Since this game, like the original Grid and Grid 2, is a street-racing game, the right thing to do would have been to either delay or elect not to go through with the contract. The integrity of the project should come before the desire to see cool brand X in it. 🤷‍♂️ That's what I believe anyway. But I don't think this is the case.

But that’s exactly what I’ve been saying all this time. Have you even read my previous reply? That’s what I’m saying, to not allow damage be dragged down by some companies. To keep damage a priority. To only select those who comply with damage standards. 

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We are going round and round. Project Cars has an extensive realistic damage model within the confines of 1. realism (Grid 1/2 is not realistic*) and 2. within reason; no point of having Burnout/GTA5 kind of damage for a game where you try to avoid collisions, not perform them on purpose. If your point is that some companies disallow full total loss damage and exploding vehicles, OK, I can accept that. But Grid 2019 does not need that to have a convincing damage model. The confines of the Project Cars 2 model is enough. Give me that, and I wouldn't be here in this thread, complaining. Project Cars 2 has many more vehicles from luxurious brands, so it should have even harder time allowing for vehicle damage, and yet it has it, for all manufacturers.

* Why I think Grid 1/2 damage model is not realistic: The way cars deform in those games is not how cars break down in the real world. It's a simplistic damage model based on vertex displacement. That's fine, but is not enough in and of itself to constitute a realistic damage model. On the flip side, it seems Grid 2019 lacks any kind of vertex displacement, or at least from my time with it.

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16 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

We are going round and round. Project Cars has an extensive realistic damage model within the confines of 1. realism (Grid 1/2 is not realistic*) and 2. within reason; no point of having Burnout/GTA5 kind of damage for a game where you try to avoid collisions, not perform them on purpose. If your point is that some companies disallow full total loss damage and exploding vehicles, OK, I can accept that. But Grid 2019 does not need that to have a convincing damage model. The confines of the Project Cars 2 model is enough. Give me that, and I wouldn't be here in this thread, complaining. Project Cars 2 has many more vehicles from luxurious brands, so it should have even harder time allowing for vehicle damage, and yet it has it, for all manufacturers.

* Why I think Grid 1/2 damage model is not realistic: The way cars deform in those games is not how cars break down in the real world. It's a simplistic damage model based on vertex displacement. That's fine, but is not enough in and of itself to constitute a realistic damage model. On the flip side, it seems Grid 2019 lacks any kind of vertex displacement, or at least from my time with it.

You’ve missed the point of this entire thread. Doesn’t matter if Grid1/2 aren’t realistic, they sure as hell look better than anything else. They are more spectacular and awe inspiring damage models. They may not be realistic but to say Project cars is? The only thing realistic about that damage model in Pcars is maybe the mechanical stuff because cars sure aren’t made from depleted uranium. Cars don’t deform beyond a set limit which is rather small. The new Grid doesn’t even have much deformation which was the point of this whole thread. I’ll take exaggerated and slightly unrealistic deformation over unrealistic tank/no deformation any day. As I’ve said time and again I’m talking about the visuals. You keep bringing up Project cars and I’ve tested it’s damage model extensively. The deformation is rather hard to do and seems to result in a samey looking damaged vehicle every time. Seems more simplistic. Not to mention the things like scratches, chips, etc are not as good. Carbon fibre damage is non-existent. Plastic bumpers act like metal objects. Parts like doors/ wing-mirrors, spoilers don’t fall off. I could go on and on. Whereas older Grids had almost all expected parts removable and lots of deformation. Go watch older Grids crashes in slo-mo. They were real time deformations. Whereas pcars has a calculated model where car will crash, take a few seconds and then come out with some deformation suddenly. I’m not saying Grid used to be realistic but it was technically more impressive. Which is why I made this topic since the new Grid doesn’t have that deformation or part removability compared to older games. 

Edited by Bluestig

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@Leo Natan

You are saying this:

Is worse than this:

Cars in Pcars feel rigid whereas in Grid they are more malleable which is how they should be. 

Ofcourse Pcars achieves what it needs with it’s damage but I’m talking about the limits of visual damage which was better in older Grids. 

Edited by Bluestig

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Look at this video:

This is what Ego engine is capable of doing. It may not be the most realistic but sure as hell looks fun. But all these limits put on it make it seem like a caged animal.

Poor Ego engine to the state of the damage model:

594390F7-88DD-4730-9460-D2CCEBCD1D67.jpeg

Edited by Bluestig
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2 hours ago, Bluestig said:

I’ll have to say Ferrari is in no way worth it if we have to suffer from watered down damage

Like 4K is not worth downgraded visuals...

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5 minutes ago, lastbreath said:

Like 4K is not worth downgraded visuals...

Exactly but please don’t make any off topic discussion or this topic will be locked. 

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Does it help if it stays opened? :classic_smile:

It's too late to change damage system :classic_sad:

Edited by lastbreath

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2 minutes ago, lastbreath said:

Does it help if it stays opened? )

Maybe it’ll show Codies that damage is cared about and shouldn’t ’ be ignored for future titles and they should select manufacturers carefully. Also the game will release tomorrow in the UK so any damage aficionados like me with qualms about the state of metal crumpling and plastic disintegration can come here:)

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1 hour ago, Bluestig said:

Look at this video:

This is what Ego engine is capable of doing. It may not be the most realistic but sure as hell looks fun. But all these limits put on it make it seem like a caged animal.

The second part of this video shows car deformation which would be instant death for the passengers. Fortunately or unfortunately, this cannot be shown in racing games anymore.

Btw, I've always wondered, ok, damage may look fun crashing cars once or twice, but why do you need it in a racing game for cars to look realistically destroyed, isn't the point to try to avoid doing so? Nothing wrong with liking it to completely destroy cars, but isn't that the scope of other games like crashfest and not that of grid? I agree damage should affect the speed of the cars though (which it shouldn't in crashfest type of games 🙂 )

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8 minutes ago, cpcdem said:

The second part of this video shows car deformation which would be instant death for the passengers. Fortunately or unfortunately, this cannot be shown in racing games anymore.

Btw, I've always wondered, ok, damage may look fun crashing cars once or twice, but why do you need it in a racing game for cars to look realistically destroyed, isn't the point to try to avoid doing so? Nothing wrong with liking it to completely destroy cars, but isn't that the scope of other games like crashfest and not that of grid? I agree damage should affect the speed of the cars though (which it shouldn't in crashfest type of games 🙂 )

Damage is a part and parcel of racing. Some people like the visuals of damage in the same way people like the overall visuals of the game world. There’s something satisfying about surveying the damage of your car after a roll or a fender bender. If it’s the same every time then it’s boring. If I’m going to crash, might as well enjoy it. It’s hard to explain but plenty of people like it for a reason. It’s the same reason people like destruction movies and explosions in movies. The same reason people go to derbies or watch nascar for crashes. The crumpling of metal is satisfying. Yes you could get a game like wreckfest but that doesn’t cater too all my needs. I need modern racing car crashes that are believable in realistic scenarios. That can only be delivered by a game set in realistic situations. Hope this helps:)

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1 hour ago, cpcdem said:

isn't the point to try to avoid doing so?

Of course, but if I make a mistake - I want to see the consequences in the most spectacular way!

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Have you guys looked at Beam.NG? It's exactly its scope to produce extremely realistic crashes and damages, you can also setup any conditions you like and I am sure it has tons of mods that should do almost everything you imagine. This is the exact purpose of it, why don't you use the right tools for the right job?

OK, if you insist that you want so much to see Ferraris racing in realistic conditions and destroy them for fun, I am afraid this is not possible anymore, it's out of the developers' hands, unless they create something like crashfest or Beam.NG. I also want many things in life that are impossible, but I will not blame the devs for not implementing them for me 🙂

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55 minutes ago, cpcdem said:

Have you guys looked at Beam.NG? It's exactly its scope to produce extremely realistic crashes and damages, you can also setup any conditions you like and I am sure it has tons of mods that should do almost everything you imagine. This is the exact purpose of it, why don't you use the right tools for the right job?

OK, if you insist that you want so much to see Ferraris racing in realistic conditions and destroy them for fun, I am afraid this is not possible anymore, it's out of the developers' hands, unless they create something like crashfest or Beam.NG. I also want many things in life that are impossible, but I will not blame the devs for not implementing them for me 🙂

The problem is they WERE IMPLEMENTED in previous games. So this is DEFINITELY a downgrade. You can love it or hate it but this is DOWNGRADE.

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32 minutes ago, lastbreath said:

The problem is they WERE IMPLEMENTED in previous games. So this is DEFINITELY a downgrade. You can love it or hate it but this is DOWNGRADE.

As pointed above, as years pass, car manufacturers permit less and less damage shown in their cars. Thus my point, you can complain to the car companies that license them to devs, but the devs can't do something about it anymore. Unless they create games like Beam.NG which do not have licensed cars.

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