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Watered down damage.

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34 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

What does this have to do with damage? Exclusivity contracts are completely different from content restriction clauses.

The Porsche EA deal was made at a time when Porsche was struggling, and EA committed to making a love peace to Porsche vehicles. No idea about Japan companies, who understands those anyway? 😂 But the Toyota tweets were very ignorant and tone deaf.

Everyone here is parroting the same thing with no factual basis, only misplaced speculation (that has been denied by sim racer developer on Reddit last year). It's like an echo chamber. And of course, developers won't comment because it makes their lives easier.

Think about this comment. Of course manufacturers have some say in vehicle damage.

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1 hour ago, Bluestig said:

So what do you suggest is the reason for the downgrade? Because it can’t be time since a modder with the right tools can increase the damage quite easily by tinkering with the game engine as we’ve already seen with dirt rally. Surely, they would’ve just given an option to hardcore damage then at least? 

What games have you seen where modders have made a substantial change? All modders do is make the existing systems more exaggerated. The mesh is bent more than normally allowed. That's not a substantial change. Can you think of an instance where modders have enabled damage features that have otherwise been disabled? I can't on the top of my head, especially not in modern times.

But a word on the topic of "easy for modders; why didn't devs do it?"—there are countless examples of this. Dev and modding priorities are different. There are many games where modders fix or improve things by merely tweaking ini files or change internal files. You can see this in Skyrim, in Codemasters' own games, other racing titles, etc. Sometimes it's because of time, sometimes aesthetics, sometimes due to lack of effort, etc. But this is known to happen, and I wouldn't assume malice just because modders can tweak an existing damage model.

1 hour ago, torque99uk said:

Of course manufacturers have some say in vehicle damage.

Got proof? It's so obvious that no one is able to produce a shred of evidence (and contrary examples exist: Project Cars 2 damage on Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche; developer saying this is not true on Reddit, etc.).

Edited by Leo Natan

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@Leo Natan Well if it isn't the manufacturers stopping it and the game devs are allowed to model full damage in the game, and have done so in past games I give up and do not know why all the games are stopping.

What do you think are the main reasons in your opinion ? 👍

Edited by torque99uk

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4 minutes ago, torque99uk said:

@Leo Natan Well if it isn't the manufacturers stopping it and the game devs are allowed to model full damage in the game, and have done so in past games I give up and do not know why all the games are stopping.

What do you think are the main reasons in your opinion ? 👍

I think it comes down to resources. Looks how many issues there are in Grid. Other games are suffering too. I think it's just not a focus for developers because, especially in sim racers, people make it a point not to crash, so even a half-job will do it. Not sure what arcade racing fans think, but obvious, it's important to people, judging by this long thread. In my opinion, it's not acceptable neither in sims, nor in arcade.

  • Agree 1

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17 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

What games have you seen where modders have made a substantial change? All modders do is make the existing systems more exaggerated. The mesh is bent more than normally allowed. That's not a substantial change. Can you think of an instance where modders have enabled damage features that have otherwise been disabled? I can't on the top of my head, especially not in modern times.

But a word on the topic of "easy for modders; why didn't devs do it?"—there are countless examples of this. Dev and modding priorities are different. There are many games where modders fix or improve things by merely tweaking ini files or change internal files. You can see this in Skyrim, in Codemasters' own games, other racing titles, etc. Sometimes it's because of time, sometimes aesthetics, sometimes due to lack of effort, etc. But this is known to happen, and I wouldn't assume malice just because modders can tweak an existing damage model.

Got proof? It's so obvious that no one is able to produce a shred of evidence (and contrary examples exist: Project Cars 2 damage on Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche; developer saying this is not true on Reddit, etc.).

You could absolutely destroy Aston’s and Lambo’s in previous Grid’s. Waaay more than Pcars. Project cars came out a bit back and doesn’t even have that good of a damage model as you speak. That’s why I said wait for the next pcars. If it’s downgraded even more than pcars2 then licenses definitely got tough. Why wouldn’t the devs of Grid just carry over the decent damage from previous games? Instead they actually put effort into decreasing the damage by making cars out of titanium and changing the physics so cars are less airborne. 

If there were no restrictions then why don’t we see cars being split apart or on fire when they’re licensed? Why didn’t Criterion games make Nfs Hot pursuits damage the same as Burnout? Obviously there are restrictions. Listen mate, I really hope you are right that there are none and we can enjoy some games with more damage in the future but atm it sure doesn’t seem like it  

 

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@Bluestig Even if we disagree about how good the PC2 damage model is, at least we can agree that if a car can be damaged this much, there isn't much more a contract can forbid developers:

At the end, that Porsche looks like a Nissan. 😂

 

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Just now, Ak1504 said:

Just laughable compared to OG GRID .

We've had this discussion in this thread. It's not true. Grid's damage system is very simplistic. Yes, it looks like the car is more destroyed, but it's not realistic. It's a deformed mesh, whereas here you have different materials being deformed differently. It's not perfect, but in my eyes, it is more realistic than Grid.

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13 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

@Bluestig Even if we disagree about how good the PC2 damage model is, at least we can agree that if a car can be damaged this much, there isn't much more a contract can forbid developers:

At the end, that Porsche looks like a Nissan. 😂

 

Although the pcars damage sometimes looks good it is very inconsistent and simple. Even more than you say Grid is. You can’t deform most cars beyond certain limits and small contact doesn’t cause any damage. Rollover crashes always look the same, i.e the car just dumps off all its parts and looks scratchy no matter how it rolled. In previous Grids if you rolled a car it would get damaged only at points of impacts. You could even flatten the roof or make a car look like a banana in high speed wrecks. In pcars the damage mostly always looks the same. Trust me I’ve extensively tested it and wasn’t impressed. My point is Pcars 2 should be compared to older Grids as they came out in a similar period. Since the last two years it seems like contracts have gotten even tougher. Let’s see what PCARS 3 damage looks like and then we can assess if licenses have truly gotten tougher. 

Edited by Bluestig

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4 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

We've had this discussion in this thread. It's not true. Grid's damage system is very simplistic. Yes, it looks like the car is more destroyed, but it's not realistic. It's a deformed mesh, whereas here you have different materials being deformed differently. It's not perfect, but in my eyes, it is more realistic than Grid.

That’s not true. Pcars has very bad damage. The plastic bumpers act like they’re made of metal. Almost all materials act the same. In Grid 2 bumpers used to flap like they were made from plastic and carbon fibre actually broke. In pcars carbon fibre is all one piece always. 

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@Leo Natan

look at these crashes:

look how the car deforms according to the impacts. This is impossible to do in pcars. In pcars the car just dumps it’s load(lol) of parts for no reason. 

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To me it's more realistic, and thus better. Yes, you can bang the car more in Grid, but that doesn't make it automatically better or realistic.

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29 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

To me it's more realistic, and thus better. Yes, you can bang the car more in Grid, but that doesn't make it automatically better or realistic.

Depends on what you are looking for. Visually you cannot even compare older Grids to Pcars. Grid is just leagues better. I have never seen many people talking about Pcars when it comes to damage whereas Grid is known for damage and it’s talked about every time it comes up. Now if you are talking about mechanical damage then there are many better than Grid. Here, I made the topic about visual damage. Mostly when people talk about damage it’s about visual damage. People complement Burnout for damage yet it doesn’t have mechanical damage. It’s because most people care about how a car looks when damaged. Mechanical damage is more a sim thing. Now if despite all my examples you think visuals of Pcars damage are better then that’s your opinion. A rare one but I’ll have to respect it. 

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@Bluestig All this time on this thread, I've only been discussing the visual aspects of damage, unless stated otherwise. "Better" is subjective. To me it's not "better". What I am looking for is realistic looking damage, not mesh deformation. Burnout Paradise' damage model is not bad, actually. But still, it's an old game, so imagine how detailed it could be these days. But Grid is not that. Grid is a very simplistic model which we've had in one form or another since NFS4: mesh deformation (with some few detachable elements on Grid, like hood and doors). That to me is not "leagues better", no.

I don't know why you go back to Gird 1 and 2 all the time. Look at Dirt Rally 2.0, it also has a much more advanced damage model than Grid 2019. So does F1. F1 has a very good damage model.

Edited by Leo Natan

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2 hours ago, Leo Natan said:

Got proof? It's so obvious that no one is able to produce a shred of evidence (and contrary examples exist: Project Cars 2 damage on Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche; developer saying this is not true on Reddit, etc.).

Regarding Test Drive: Ferrari Racing Legends -
" The website also commented that cars doesn't receive much damage due to restrictions made by Ferrari, concluding that "Without any projection, these cars, as beautiful as they are, do lose a lot of their charm." Ferrari Racing Legends does not feature car customization, as Ferrari didn't allow the developer to include the feature. "

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@Sir.Smoke That's not proof? It's quoting from the rumor mill with nothing to substantiate the claims. It's from this article: https://web.archive.org/web/20120702115225/http://downloadxboxgames.com/2012/03/01/test-drive-ferrari-racing-legends-xbox-360-preview/

The article doesn't include a source for that. And that game (I remembered it as "Ferrari Project"), had the same damage model as Shift 2, as it was based on the same engine.

Edited by Leo Natan

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No, it's like quoting someone from this thread claiming it's Ferrari's fault. Evidence would be a direct discussion with a developer in an interview or social media.

Ferrari cars have damage in Project Cars 2.

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9 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

@Sir.Smoke That's not proof? It's quoting from the rumor mill with nothing to substantiate the claims. It's from this article: https://web.archive.org/web/20120702115225/http://downloadxboxgames.com/2012/03/01/test-drive-ferrari-racing-legends-xbox-360-preview/

The article doesn't include a source for that. And that game (I remembered it as "Ferrari Project"), had the same damage model as Shift 2, as it was based on the same engine.

I remember asking Paul Coleman about damage and licensing back when dirt 4 was about to release. He said licensing has definitely become tougher. Wish I could find that answer but this forum is so hard to navigate on mobile. Can you even see your own old replies?

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I haven't tried. I miss the old forums. These forum softwares are too "advanced" for their own good.

I wish I could find the reddit comment from a developer that said license does not prevent damage. 😞

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@ChrisGrovesMCM I know you guys are busy but can you please throw some light on whether manufacturers have any say in damage allowed to cars? If so then why did assetto devs say that it’s not true? Thank you. 

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5 minutes ago, Leo Natan said:

@Bluestig Did you find the quote from AC developer?

No but I do remember them saying that. Wonder why they never implemented proper damage themselves. Maybe they were talking about mechanical damage?

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