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DiRT Rally - AI drivers too good?

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LaPremier said:
Cafours said:
I just got a podium in a master stage, albeit in a fiat 151 but still. Its doable, you just need to be smooth.

Thing is guys, this game is trying to simulate a real degree of difficulty and if you play with a wheel in masters - on a simplistic level - you are effectively racing against people equivalent to WRC Level, you can't get that good in a game without putting hours in.

Its like some guy picking up CS go, playing 10 hours then going to a Lan vs Pros and expecting to win guys.
You so naive... in real rally nobody never will drive in such wildy made way as we can do it in game. They risks with their life, we - with nothing. On the other hand, the level of simularion in this game is so low, that its no sense to compare at all. But we can compare with other games. If most people in RBR cannot win even with PRO level - for what to set here unreal times, which cannot beat those, who wins at "champion" level in RBR? As for me, I can win any RBR stage at maximum level, I have 1000 wins in WRC3 and holded there world records, which cheatters could beat only by manual writing their fantastic times. I was #1 in the world in Driver SF classic race. So, I see, that here at some stages I lose, in first tries, 4 seconds per checkpoint. Absolutly clear its too much. OK, I passed with 2 place Sweet Lamb (from 20sec)
(http://youtu.be/pEmWQ0cPmDw), and there can improve, but at first Greece stage I see I cannot do much. Its impossible. So, they not tested good yet, these results must be corrected.

You kinda missed the point there dude, i'm not saying i can go out there and drive an audi quattro like juha kankkunnen, im saying codies are trying to simulate the difficulty and that people should take a bit more time when learning the game. I'd be a dead man about 16 times over by now if it was real life. Thing is, it aint. 

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get at? Are you suggesting that the AI is way too difficult because you just started playing the game and are getting continually stuffed by them? If so thats fair does! 
I've put 32 hours into this game since release and not surprisingly i SUCKED at the beginning, I came 9th overall in my first open champs but i just kept hammering away and then things clicked :)

All those things are good for you man! You should be proud! 


I find it kind of strange all of you coming in to say you got a podium at elite. While that's awesome, how does tweaking a minor difficulty effect you exactly? I'm not talking about moving the entire games difficulty to the left, but only elongating the progression to make it actually feel like a progression. Elite will pose the same challenge it does now while Open could probably be made a bit easier. Flying off track 200 times isn't making anyone a better driver. Learning how to properly drive first will result in a better progression.



Thats fair does like. Not gonna deny I got stuffed big time by the AI at first. Though i think the challenge made me better at the game. Sometimes I think games moddy coddle people too early on and it means they can get away with bad habits from the start. If the game is hard from the beginning then those bad habits HAVE to be nipped in the bud right away!!!!

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I find 2nd and 3rd easy enough to get if you drive cautiously, and 1st is a real challenge that requires you to be on the edge of disaster at all times. It's very hard and I do restart a lot to learn the tracks but that's what I find most fun about this game.

That being said I do agree that some tracks have harder to reach times than others, this could be my ability changing from track to track but there is probably more to it. The times need a bit more balance perhaps.

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gtobaza said:
think about getting consistant clean stages and not trying to be so gungho into the corners
I'm thinking more about the game not selling well, and us never getting another one.
Regardless of whether the game is a sim, or an arcade racer, it still has to sell well as a GAME.

To do that, it will need to cater to players of all skill levels, not just hardcore sim racers.
Having the higher levels be very difficult is one thing.
Making the entry level so difficult it scares off all the average gamers, who might otherwise buy it, is financial suicide.

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Disagree, they're pace is perfect and challenging. I will say that i do believe the same Ai driver should not be winning every stage for entire championship. 2 3 occasionally getting wins at pace, this would make consistency in top more of a strategy.

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The AI isn't that hard, depends on the track and the car setup for me. On the Monte Carlo tracks I am horrendous, but for Whales and Greece I manage to keep on pace or a couple second leads on average. When I first started playing I averaged a 30 second split and maintained 3rd almost consistently, now after doing Whales stages I had averaged a 10 second lead. It's all about risk assessment and knowing where to go flat out or stay conservative and not floor it on a crest.

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Disagree, they're pace is perfect and challenging. I will say that i do believe the same Ai driver should not be winning every stage for entire championship. 2 3 occasionally getting wins at pace, this would make consistency in top more of a strategy.
I like the fact that there are just flat out good drivers in the championships. It was cool to have a rivalry with someone in the Open tier then go up to Clubman with them and start demolishing them because apparently they aren't as good in 70s RWD as they were in 60s FWD. If all the AI drivers have personalities like that the singleplayer is going to be very long lived.

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I just wanna say a Couple of important things from looking into this I think. I want community members to confirm or deny this.

I was doing some training runs in custom event on the assists biases and I notices from those times that I think we are all racing on PRO ai, no matter what your settings says your on, your on pro! Please benchmark yourself on a track to compare the times with any recent championship sceenshot you finish on.

I was routinely coming in 5,6,7 and on a championship on 1960, 1970 in carear but in custom event I humped them. club was more more level for top 3 finished, but when I toggled back to carear I was getting done over.

Now the thing that is worring me is what are we getting paid. I clearly remember changing the difficulty on the first day but since the co-pilot patch I can no longer change my difficulty setting. people seem to be on different difficulty settings, the ai may be set to pro but are we getting paid on our tier levels. To check this I just wiped my data about 20 hours game time to see if I got level difficulty but no joy. I am still open.

Now if people are on different bands playing on the same difficulty there will be a huge gulf between unlocks and money.

Now what I am asking is the top value (NOT THE ADJUSTED) cr figure and the number you placed in that championship and difficulty. Also to benchmark in custom event against recent championship events.

I know 5,6,7 I am about 14,000 1st nets me 24000 on open or there abouts in 1960

It also makes we wonder if the codemasters intends to wipe early access data on release day (or gold build and give us a couple weeks to get our stuff back before general release) as we have a lot balancing to do on cars and handling and what happens to our drivers profiles? I mean I just wiped my for the greater good, but I think its a question that needs asking.

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Still having difficulty with the Greek stages, but my placings during Welsh and Monaco stages are improving... Normally top 3, with the odd win.

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Disagree, they're pace is perfect and challenging. I will say that i do believe the same Ai driver should not be winning every stage for entire championship. 2 3 occasionally getting wins at pace, this would make consistency in top more of a strategy.
I'd say this is the solution! Constantly see one ai stomping it, make them have varied results so things are less clear cut :)

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I think the AI difficulty must be more progressive in order to encourage player to be better with keeping the fun to play.
It's a basic rule of any video game btw.

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I think that the easier setting should be a bit easier. But maybe not in the way that they are slower. They should do it like in the easier setting there is a bigger chance for your opponents to crash out and retire. When you first start out you are much more prone to crashing and you can get locked in an endless circle of never progressing and getting different cars. I think the later difficoulties can stay like they are. Just make the easy mode easier

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In this video below you see me racing in a masters champs, TWO of the AI had a bad stage, which ended up with me being 2nd overall in the event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqH19_Yaok4

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Flying off track 200 times isn't making anyone a better driver. Learning how to properly drive first will result in a better progression.

This way you're not fixing any problem, you're just moving it. Sure let people who fly off track 200 times promote to the next level. And then they start complaining again that's it's too difficult. People who can't keep their car on the track aren't supposed to win a championship, it's as simple as that. I'm one of them, I have a hard time to keep anything higher up than a 70's class vehicle on the track. But dumbing down the AI won't make me a better driver either. It's practise that does. So NO, the AI is NOT to difficult. People just need to invest some time to actually learn to drive a vehicle, before they can go on and win championships. I think the current difficulty system is perfect to achieve this. The better you are, the more challenging it gets. 

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My run at night in Monty Carlo, Masters championship. Clearly not a clean stage but still won the stage by 3 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/OHtqghmgwIk


Around 40 hours in game.

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It took me a week to get my first stage win. I completed DiRT 2 and Dirt3 in less than that. I felt more sense of achievement in that 1 stage win than I did in completing either of the other games.

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I was wondering after being second in the second diffeculty on carreer mode and winning some races. Now i'm driving better times with custom matches on open diffeculty I seem to be loosing does the diffeculty slider even work on the custom matches.

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It took me a week to get my first stage win.
You're an experienced player.
It shouldn't take you a week to win a single entry level stage.

That level of difficulty is going to send 95% of the copies of this game back to Gamestop within a week of release.
Your average gamer is going to put the disc in, say "Screw this", and take the game back.
That doesn't bode well for Codemasters, or for us getting a followup.

I want the game damn near impossible, at the highest levels, but it also has to be easy enough at the lowest levels to sell well to people of lower skill levels.

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NoOneNBA said:
I want the game damn near impossible, at the highest levels, but it also has to be easy enough at the lowest levels to sell well to people of lower skill levels.
Yeah that's true. I forget that noobs will just get fed up with the frustration and leave

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I think we can all agree that most people who will buy this game at release are not going to be hardcore sim drivers. They are going to be your average gamers, a majority of which are playing on a gamepad. After 25 hours I still have to get lucky in order to finish 3rd overall in Open Championships. Most players like myself will probably never see an Elite Championship win and that's perfectly fine with me. That is how it should be. At the same time, the entry level shouldn't be something I put over 25 hours into without even making a dent.

So the question is... Build the game around the elite minority, or build the game around the average consumer. With Codies already being tight for cash, I'm not sure an elite minority game is what they need right now.

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It took me a week to get my first stage win. I completed DiRT 2 and Dirt3 in less than that. I felt more sense of achievement in that 1 stage win than I did in completing either of the other games.
NoOneNBA said:
It took me a week to get my first stage win.
You're an experienced player.
It shouldn't take you a week to win a single entry level stage.

That level of difficulty is going to send 95% of the copies of this game back to Gamestop within a week of release.
Your average gamer is going to put the disc in, say "Screw this", and take the game back.
That doesn't bode well for Codemasters, or for us getting a followup.

I want the game damn near impossible, at the highest levels, but it also has to be easy enough at the lowest levels to sell well to people of lower skill levels.


Are you still on open?

After I reset my profile and was forced back to the mini the penny dropped.

The most important thing to do is figure how to get promoted to club in 1960's. (finish top3 in open)

IF you get beat DO NOT WHAT EVER YOU DO CHANGE CAR CLASS even if you have enough money. This is what I did, yes I put a load of time in other classes.

You need to understand the basics. Once you get promoted to club this teached you the style needed to compete at higher tiers. I went back to 1960 after some 12 hours of messing around in other tiers and what an improvement.

I just got promoted to club and my money pay out is up. and I am challenging top 3 in club now in a mini. even if you buy faster cars on open your payout will be poor because your still on open.

I would lock our higher classes until players can get to club from the 1960's I think that what players are doing wrong in my opinion. 


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I went up a league everytime I got the option to. I'm in the Elite Class  (which was where I won the stage). I don't mind not winning the races, in a perverse way, I'm enjoying getting my arse handed to me. I enjoy the challenge, I know that if I go back down to entry level I will smash them now, but where's the challenge in that? Yeah, it'll stroke my ego, but I won't be learning anything from it.

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Maybe they should have 2 modes in the finished game. 'Mere Mortal' for beginners, and 'Rally Supergods' for the more experienced. 'MM' would teach everyone the basics in a Rally Driving Lesson Course (Like the earlier CMRs and RBR), have easier opponents and flashbacks, 'Rally Supergods' is as the game is now. That way, everybody is happy

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For Open players.

yeah to me there where two approaches at the start in 1960's racing.

a) stick with the same class and work through the league levels first, earning more money. since I now realise I can make more money in club on 1960 even if I come in 6th as opposed to racing 1970 in open.

b) even if you lose you move to the next class of car but on the open difficulty. NOT GREAT because if you do this your pay out is still far lower than a)

Looking back retrospectively, I bought different class of cars (even though i was finishing 5,6,7 on open)because I got distracted With the payouts for the online challenges. This sidetracked me and ultimately F%&k me up for the next 12 hours. Racing on Carear in higher powered cars will not get you more money for cars. Only going up through the league gets you more rewards. This has not been made clear IMHO from the devs. I think people are changing there classes rather than focusing on league promotion in lower powered cars.

I think the players that did A) are in a good place because that teaches you how to drive. Players who choose B set themself back, and unless some one tells you this, both sets of players don't understand why there is a huge gap in skill levels. In reality there probably isn't, it is that you have been derailed. 

If you can't crack OPEN in a 1960 you don't really understand how to drive. this is going to take some time. but once you do it its rapid growth time because you understand how to drive this game. Don't change car classes till you do.

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monkiemurdie said:

Are you still on open?
yeah to me there where two approaches at the start in 1960's racing.
I did c), jumped to Clubman, and changed car classes.
I'm currently sitting in 2nd place, after 2 of 3 events, in Clubman Group B.
I've been putting more time into the online challenges than I have the career mode, so I haven't gone up any higher in driver class yet.

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NoOneNBA said:
monkiemurdie said:

Are you still on open?
yeah to me there where two approaches at the start in 1960's racing.
I did c), jumped to Clubman, and changed car classes.
I'm currently sitting in 2nd place, after 2 of 3 events, in Clubman Group B.
I've been putting more time into the online challenges than I have the career mode, so I haven't gone up any higher in driver class yet.
Nice! you got out of open, then said carear is FUBAR, I was kinda feeling this way at hour 8-10. I don't think the carear structure is that good. its not how I would have structures the game, I think the game has the potential to have alot of depth, but at the moment I feel the carear is poorly structured.

Having said that I am only now after 26 hours starting to see why and in fairness it kinda makes sense in the way that they did it. But for my playstyle and how I think the leaderboards are going to be, compared to how i would like them. I think this game is shafting the sim community.
The game is like Bipolar at the moment, arcade (console) carear layout, with very little info to distinguish playstyles in the leaderboards and tools for for sim fans to create communities in Leagues. Sure its got a hardcore kinda real rally experience but in its current form its not a game I am going to be coming back to in the long term as a serious casual player. I can see the features in that could bring me longterm, but they have been lazy in the available tool sets currently.

The fact that they have working achievements kinda tells me this product is ready to launch in the next 3-4 months. I would say mid sept at a guess, and that frustrates the hell out of me! because its hard enough to get a almost sim driving game, and I can see it got something, but its just to shallow in its current form. I hope they prove me wrong but its got alot to do before I would think this game is capable of developing a serious sim community round it, and they are the folk who are going to buy every dlc, and play the hell out of it for the next XXX years till something better or newer comes along.
I think most players are still in the honeymoon, but does it have the depth to support your community of racers?

 LOVE THE GAMEPLAY, HATE THE FRAMEWORK.

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