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DiRT Rally - AI drivers too good?

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best result ( in rally , not a stage) for me was 2nd, and I'm decent driver but definitely not the best. AI Drivers are challenging , but I wouldn't call them too good.

it should be difficult to win rally stage, will make it so much more worth it, then if you win after driving the game for 5 minutes

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I played again last night. Either you guys love an insane challenge or some of us are experiencing a bug with the AI. Let me explain.
Last night I sat down and played the stage 'Pant Mawr' with the Group A Subaru Impreza, trying to come 1st in Open. I made several attempts and the quickest time I managed was 3:04.925. Still that wasn't enough to come 1st, with the fastest driver getting 3:03.14. 


When I looked at the friend comparison screen, I discovered that was the 12th fastest for that stage and configuration (I assume positions are different for classes and weather conditions). To put this in perspective this means that less than 12 players managed to actually come 1st in this stage on the easiest difficultly. Yes only 11 or potentially even less managed to beat the AI on the easiest difficulty.

http://s21.postimg.org/6s9s64hdj/positions.png  
http://s1.postimg.org/ms5zxgmv3/Capture.png

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Cafours said:
Disagree, they're pace is perfect and challenging. I will say that i do believe the same Ai driver should not be winning every stage for entire championship. 2 3 occasionally getting wins at pace, this would make consistency in top more of a strategy.
I'd say this is the solution! Constantly see one ai stomping it, make them have varied results so things are less clear cut :)
One of the drivers being good gives you a rival. Something to target. Coming out of the first event in 70s Clubman I got 18 points, only a few seconds ahead of third (Ruzicka), but 10+ seconds behind one S. Leroux. Pushing to beat him in the second event right now, I'm only 9 tenths behind him after losing 3 seconds on the second stage.

AI with personality weaves a tale. In the 60s Open for example, I had a hard fought battle with Papantoniou for first, we ended up tying for first in points (actually, 3 of us did with us all sharing one of each spot on the podium!) with him winning on time(?) or whatever the tiebreaker is and me coming in second. It seems that he isn't as capable at 70s RWD as he's currently in the drop zone at 14th.

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I like the AI - what good is it if it would not be challenging from the beginning?
I would like to see later on an implementation of a learning AI regarding stage times to become more challenging as one is picking up skills during the progress of the game, so the AI stays challenging.

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I've logged 40 hours with Dirt Rally and a hell of a lot with Richard Burns. I've played pretty much every rally game ever released and I'm a pretty good rally driver, I know how to race right on the line I'm just not terribly consistent.

Richard Burns is far easier IMHO. I have only started wining stages recently on professional difficulty in Dirt Rally.  My real problem is the moving goalposts with the AI times. The closer I get to the lead, the less difference between the other AI drivers. I was 10 seconds behind the pace and came 5th, so I restated came 4 seconds behind the pace and was still placed 5th. That totally kills any incentive to win as you get better and so does the AI (on the same difficulty). No satisfaction of winning unless you get that podium which does mean a close to perfect run. Unfortunately as there are still some major issues with the pace notes, this inevitably means a LOT of restarts just to get a clean stage happening. And I know what I'm doing and are dedicated to the cause. For casual racers it's just too hard and frustrating even on open difficulty.

I also think you should be able to choose the difficulty level each time you start a championship. I'd love to go back to open and wipe the floor (the only way to do that is to deliberately lose a championship and retire). If you look at the steam achievements, less than 1% of all players have won a championship on any difficulty. We are all losers!

So I'm trying to just ignore the AI times as they are rigged, and racing against myself or other real drivers in a car league I joined. Whilst I'd love some real-time staggered start racing, the asynchronous online is still fun.

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I've found the AI to just at the right pace for me. When I'm against them in a car without upgrades I need to put together a really good stage to be in P1-P3.
Once I have the upgrades on I'm usually winning most of the stages on Masters.

(but I'm restarting too much...)

I agree that there should be a way for players to relegate themselves or keep at a level they'd like to compete at - without having to retire and still cash in.

I've previously posted that the Career mode could do with a bit more narrative to highlight rivalries, progression of key AI rivals during a rally and getting rewarded with hire of cars or car purchase discounts    - I'm posting links as I'm too lazy to write about it again :)

The AI system fundamentals are really good in this game - it just needs a bit of work to make the player aware of its intricacies.

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6916/improvement-ai-rivals-in-career-mode#latest

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/109424/#Comment_109424

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Results after 12 stages....72h played
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/438323932129663945/1F6E73C7E2E10A62EEA839D8F5FD8540C1FD20BE/

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and championship results
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/438324733392026533/C0CBD8919DB3699A37DBAD341739328BCE0634B5/

i want hardcore AI option 

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Well it depends on how you look at the game, if you look at it from an arcade standpoint view, then yes, AI drivers are too hard (especially entry level AI drivers in open championship), first time I played the game and the championship I finished about 6th or 7th, but as I practice, I get more familiar with the cars and stages and conditions in which I drive, so from a simulation standpoint I'd have to disagree, AI drivers are not too good, I find myself in a championship often in first place, on par with what real players are like, but a bit slower, if I play group B championship on master I almost almost find myself about 15-25 seconds ahead of every other AI driver.

So what are you? Arcade casual driver or Simulation driver?
It's a tough question to answer depending on the amount of casual and hardcore rally drivers are out there but the majority of the hardcore drivers will say the AI isn't too good.

Hope this helps.

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I think, and have always thought, it's a bit broken to be honest.
There are certain stages, especially in Greece, where the AI as a whole, any difficulty, is inexplicably and consistently much slower than everywhere else and that kills any sense of belief.
There also seems to be little perceptible difference between the AI levels, which is a bit silly with five of them.

Personally, I don't think the single player of any game should be built around the top 10 or even top 100 players in the world.
That's what multiplayer is for.

When just barely beating an Open Level AI by about 0.2 seconds puts you in the top 20 times of a stages' global leaderboard, despite the game having been out for about 2 months at the time, I would think there is a little bit of a balance problem (stuck out so much to me that I still remember it)

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BrySkye said:
I think, and have always thought, it's a bit broken to be honest.
There are certain stages, especially in Greece, where the AI as a whole, any difficulty, is inexplicably and consistently much slower than everywhere else and that kills any sense of belief.
There also seems to be little perceptible difference between the AI levels, which is a bit silly with five of them.

Personally, I don't think the single player of any game should be built around the top 10 or even top 100 players in the world.
That's what multiplayer is for.

When just barely beating an Open Level AI by about 0.2 seconds puts you in the top 20 times of a stages' global leaderboard, despite the game having been out for about 2 months at the time, I would think there is a little bit of a balance problem (stuck out so much to me that I still remember it)

I've seen that happen myself - according to splits I'd be 8 seconds quicker than the AI in the first sector and then add 3s in each following sector. So there may be something to be fixed.

When it comes to the stage position in the world - without a leaderboard it's rather difficult to tell whether they're working correctly. There's a group of players who can't tell what position their stage time is, so it's not all working 100% correct yet.

I think that on Masters difficulty winning stages should require a top50-100 in the world stage time. However, lower difficulty options should be nowhere near that time. It comes down to that working your way up the Level ladder should allow you to remain at a certain stage if you wish, while still giving appropriate rewards and narrative.

Is there an end game to the Career mode right now? Perhaps the aim is to win in each class, buy and upgrade each car... but I doubt I'll ever accumulate enough hours to achieve that...

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Maybe they should have 2 modes in the finished game. 'Mere Mortal' for beginners, and 'Rally Supergods' for the more experienced. 'MM' would teach everyone the basics in a Rally Driving Lesson Course (Like the earlier CMRs and RBR), have easier opponents and flashbacks, 'Rally Supergods' is as the game is now. That way, everybody is happy
I really hope that codemasters leave flashbacks out of the game especially in online events.
It is the most stupid thing they ever put in their games.
I hated it from the first moment.


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My original opinion was that, though the AI was tough, with experience it would become easier to beat. Now however...

Stopped playing the career mode because I'm finding the AI difficulty way to hard. Having worked my way through from Open to Master quite a number of times, dropping down again to start with a new car. I find the times being set by the top AI driver in the Open Class, are no slower than that of the Masters... 

Having no option to tone down the AI, is making playing a very frustrating experience. As much as I love the game, I'm hating it just as much... 

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Are you playing "Custom Event" or "Career"?

With custom event I think the times are messed up, as if they're in a totally different class of car, I sometimes finish an event 1-1.5 minutes behind, as if I'm racing against ji1. BUT Career mode is perfect. First 2 championships I placed in the top 3, so I leveled up each time (Professional now). I'm just hoping that I start to struggle more for the podium in the higher difficulties.

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Martakus said:
As I previously said, if the devs would finally remove that ridiculous difficulty spike that when you hit Masters, you suddenly need to place 1st instead of 3rd in total, the difficulty would be perfect. Because to me, it´s usually realistic to score 3rd or 4th place, but hardly 1st. And I think the game should provide keep providing a challenge even to the pros, so yes, the difficulty is good, it´s just the system that isn´t.
You don't need to finish absolutely first every time in Master, I've finished 1st / 2nd/ 3rd and still won, because the AI driver that was in 1st place crashed his car in one of the final stages of the event and was forced to retire placing him behind everyone else.

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Seb Ogier doesn't win every single stage of the WRC - that's something to think about. 

I've clocked around 200 hrs on this game, and I still lose the occasional stage or event on Masters. I'm glad I do, because it would be boring otherwise. 

You get rewarded for a good stage. If you're 10+ seconds behind the pace, then a) your car isn't good enough (upgraded), and/or b) you need to improve on your judgement of speed and line. 

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One of DiRT Rallys big pulls is that it's the first game in a very long time that is genuinely challenging.  To get good, you have to work at it and practise.  That makes the taste of victory and success oh so much sweeter.  Too many games are so easy and short you can finish them in 20 hours or so. 

Yes the AI is hard.  Good.

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I both agree and disagree. I do agree that to some extent it should be a little bit easier in the open championship. That being said, I'm not that good of a rally driver and I cruised up to top level without any problem, bought a new car for each tier and got a top 3 position. Having a real hard time to get a top 3 position now at the top tier though, which is both fun and frustrating.

One thing that has been bothering me a bit is that the AI times seem to change depending on how I do. For example, in the group A championship right now I managed to get a stage win on the first stage, without driving at my absolute best. Then next stage I really focused, and even though I drove way better than the first stage I still lost it. And the next stage, I drove on the edge of my ability and still lost it. Then I kind of gave up for a bit, and drove the fourth stage kind of badly and lost a lot of time. 
And this is where it gets interesting, in that after that badly driven fourth stage I could easily cruise in for a stage win at the fifth stage, probably because the AI times got worse due to my bad driving in the fourth.
I feel like I have seen similar behaviour many times. If this is something the AI does, it really could use some help to get more "human".

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Dytut said:
I both agree and disagree. I do agree that to some extent it should be a little bit easier in the open championship. That being said, I'm not that good of a rally driver and I cruised up to top level without any problem, bought a new car for each tier and got a top 3 position. Having a real hard time to get a top 3 position now at the top tier though, which is both fun and frustrating.

One thing that has been bothering me a bit is that the AI times seem to change depending on how I do. For example, in the group A championship right now I managed to get a stage win on the first stage, without driving at my absolute best. Then next stage I really focused, and even though I drove way better than the first stage I still lost it. And the next stage, I drove on the edge of my ability and still lost it. Then I kind of gave up for a bit, and drove the fourth stage kind of badly and lost a lot of time. 
And this is where it gets interesting, in that after that badly driven fourth stage I could easily cruise in for a stage win at the fifth stage, probably because the AI times got worse due to my bad driving in the fourth.
I feel like I have seen similar behaviour many times. If this is something the AI does, it really could use some help to get more "human".

Experienced that, too. After completely messing up a stage, the AI drivers - especially the fastest ones - often drop back with mechanical issues. On the other hand, if I start really well, the AI mostly fights back with fast times, too.

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YoMrWhite said:

Experienced that, too. After completely messing up a stage, the AI drivers - especially the fastest ones - often drop back with mechanical issues. On the other hand, if I start really well, the AI mostly fights back with fast times, too.
I think a blog post on AI design in DiRT Rally would be of big interest to the players - any chance for a bit of info how the AI works in the game @KickUp @justbiglee ?

I've had rallies where I had to push really hard (usually in Monte) and fight against one of the AI drivers. The other AI were a bit behind us two on pace. That driver was pushing me pretty much all the way until he had a crash and damaged his car.

I think these sort of things are realistic and great to have - making it more clear to the players with a bit more narrative or display on results would allow the players to appreciate it a bit more.  Maybe have stage end summaries from key AI competitors? Realistically there would be a lot of work to write those for the AI, but then again the drivers usually say 'Good stage, I pushed' 'Bad stage, [player name] is much better than me, I quit this whole rally thing'...

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I think it's very good as it is. I find it very realistic, here are few notes why:
  • Open - it's good there are big differencies among AI drivers, I do imagine it as 'amateur rally' where are big differences IRL too. It's gate to real thing, so only if you are 'ready', you can continue. Also it gives player time to adjust with game without getting beaten to 15th position over and over again.
  • Masters - You don't have to go for maximum attack each time. It's Greece your cup of tea and you play pinball instead of rally in Monaco? Not a big deal, you can still win, Wojczik an Roberts can crash their cars or can't drive Wales that well :)
  • All in between - you will just improove over time, if you are not improving, something's wrong, check replays, manuals, tutorials, try different setup etc... About 200hrs ago I was happy when I managed not to crash, now I can beat AI in Wales and Greece, maybee soon I will be able to beat them in Germany and Monaco too.

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Martakus said:
Spokster said:
Martakus said:
As I previously said, if the devs would finally remove that ridiculous difficulty spike that when you hit Masters, you suddenly need to place 1st instead of 3rd in total, the difficulty would be perfect. Because to me, it´s usually realistic to score 3rd or 4th place, but hardly 1st. And I think the game should provide keep providing a challenge even to the pros, so yes, the difficulty is good, it´s just the system that isn´t.
You don't need to finish absolutely first every time in Master, I've finished 1st / 2nd/ 3rd and still won, because the AI driver that was in 1st place crashed his car in one of the final stages of the event and was forced to retire placing him behind everyone else.
I know - but as I said, I´m happy to finish a single event 3rd, because the top 3 always seem to be a lot better than the other AIs. And there´s no chance of winning a masters series with 3 4th places and a 3rd or so...
Of course not, but if the AI drivers make mistakes, they can lose their podium in 1 stage by totalling their cars, which happened with my AI drivers on more then 1 occasion. It bumped me to first place some times before making me the defender for next season.

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i dont think you can compare the ai much if you havent played much.

at first they seem rearly fast and unbeatable. then you learn the game and you progress and the tables turn.




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