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DiRT Rally - AI drivers too good?

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dgeesi0 said:
i dont think you can compare the ai much if you havent played much.

at first they seem rearly fast and unbeatable. then you learn the game and you progress and the tables turn.
Yeah indeed, you need to know the stage by heart and learn to control your car, if you put enough time in it, you will get the hang of it, I just raced 2 events in the masters championship with 1970 RWD cars, first with an non-upgraded Fiat 131 Abarth with only 190hp, and well over a 1040 kilos, got me in 4th place, after that the Fiat was upgraded, I changed the car with the Ford MKII with only 213hp and also over 1040 kilos, I managed a 1st place win on the event, I am now leading the championship with 37 points and the runner up has only 25 points, because the top tier AI drivers messed up their car and fell behind. So it's: knowledge of stages, control of the car (upgraded car helps a lot too), consistency (don't speed up because you lost time messing up a corner or bumping into things, that make you drive reckless, instead keep your head cool, focus and keep your eyes and ears at it, and a little luck with AI drivers messing up their run.

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Spokster said:
So it's: knowledge of stages, control of the car (upgraded car helps a lot too), consistency (don't speed up because you lost time messing up a corner or bumping into things, that make you drive reckless, instead keep your head cool, focus and keep your eyes and ears at it, and a little luck with AI drivers messing up their run.
What I keep trying to tell you guys is that the low-end AI levels can't be tailored to someone with even a moderate amount of racing game experience.
They have to be tailored to the "average gamer" whose only experience with a racing game is Mario Kart.

They need to sell this game to all those "average gamers", if we want a sequel and expansions.
Those people aren't going to invest enough time into this game to get to the level you are detailing in your post.
They want to jump in, win, and move on to their next game.

If the game doesn't let them win, they are going to trade it in immediately, and we get no sequel.

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NoOneNBA said:
If the game doesn't let them win, they are going to trade it in immediately, and we get no sequel.
That's children's attitude towards gaming though - and luckily there aren't all that many of them. I think some difficulty in a game will do good to this new generation of gamers.

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@KickUp has already said that they will be looking at AI difficulty because easy is too hard and hard is too easy.

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I should disagree, because most of the AI feels lame, but the finish guy S. Lapalla or how feels like superman, at least in champion level.
It made me restart a lot of times to make really crazy fast ride without hesetiations to be able to beat this guy.

It would be OK if he would be good at Monte Carlo, since snow and ice, but he is good everywhere.


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Pulec said:
I should disagree, because most of the AI feels lame, but the finish guy S. Lapalla or how feels like superman, at least in champion level.
It made me restart a lot of times to make really crazy fast ride without hesetiations to be able to beat this guy.

It would be OK if he would be good at Monte Carlo, since snow and ice, but he is good everywhere.
Weird, the guy that always wins with my championships (or usually 2nd place because I take first HA!) is L.Johnson (that is on master difficulty though).

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NoOneNBA said:
If the game doesn't let them win, they are going to trade it in immediately, and we get no sequel.
That's children's attitude towards gaming though - and luckily there aren't all that many of them. I think some difficulty in a game will do good to this new generation of gamers.
Thankfully NoOneNBA's comment isn't true. Look at Dark Souls as a prime example. A severely punishing game that players flock to, I guess because it's so rewarding when you put in the hard yards.

Dirt 1,2,3, showdown etc were throwaway games. You play through them from start to finish then shelf  it. It's like cheesy pop music vs classical. or something.... :S

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NoOneNBA said:
If the game doesn't let them win, they are going to trade it in immediately, and we get no sequel.
That's children's attitude towards gaming though - and luckily there aren't all that many of them. I think some difficulty in a game will do good to this new generation of gamers.
Thankfully NoOneNBA's comment isn't true. Look at Dark Souls as a prime example. A severely punishing game that players flock to, I guess because it's so rewarding when you put in the hard yards.

Dirt 1,2,3, showdown etc were throwaway games. You play through them from start to finish then shelf  it. It's like cheesy pop music vs classical. or something.... :S
Totally different scenario. In a lot of ways, Dark Souls is the very definition of an arcade experience.
Brutally punishing with enough of a hook to get the right gamer to keep popping money into it for another go.
That's what an arcade game really is.
However, it's very formulaic. Every enemy has a specific way to be fought most effectively.
There is basically no random element involved, unlike DiRT Rally AI which may or may not crash out.
People have finished Dark Souls without leveling up, or only in their pants (no armour).
It can be 'gamed'. Manipulated. Exploited.

Dark Souls definitely had the problem, acknowledged by it's creators, of it's intimidating difficulty simply putting people off even trying to play it.
What did  Hidetaka Miyazaki make next? BloodBorne. A game which is undeniably more accessible than Dark Souls or Demon Souls.
Compared to Dark Souls, many more people who started BloodBorne actually kept playing it.

DiRT Rally AI still lacks a real learning curve. You have 5 difficulties with only a tiny difference between each of them, which is why Open AI are still setting times that are within the top 100 of the global leaderboards on some stages and within the top 200 on most of them.
The difference between Open and Master AI is probably closer to what the difference should be between Pro and Master.

Mario Kart was used as a derogatory comparison earlier.
Thing is the 50cc through to 150cc classes have very distinct but sensical increases in difficulty, even if the games still use very cheap rubber banding AI in order to do it, making 150cc/Mirror traditionally quite brutal.
200cc in Mario Kart 8 is not exactly 'easy'. There is, however, a reliance on luck/random events, which is the one thing pro players hate in any game. 

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Porkhammer said:
That's children's attitude towards gaming though - and luckily there aren't all that many of them. 
I think some difficulty in a game will do good to this new generation of gamers.
There are actually a lot of them, and they are what makes successful franchises successful.
We need those sales to make the series self-perpetuating.
Setting the default difficulty high enough that it runs off all those casual sales will spell the end of the series.

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Spokster said:
Pulec said:
I should disagree, because most of the AI feels lame, but the finish guy S. Lapalla or how feels like superman, at least in champion level.
Weird, the guy that always wins with my championships (or usually 2nd place because I take first HA!) is L.Johnson (that is on master difficulty though).
Everybody has a different rival that sets the almost impossible times to beat, mines some Greek. They are the guys who came top of the AI in your first season, and they progress as you progress, following you through each championship.

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Bongomaster said:
Thankfully NoOneNBA's comment isn't true. Look at Dark Souls as a prime example. 
That's not a good example though.
We're talking racing games here.

If you look at the three most successful racing series (Mario Kart, NFS, and Gran Turismo), all of those offer very easy entry difficulties, to acclimatize newer players, and get them invested in the game before ramping up the difficulty.
Looking at newer offerings, Project CARS has met with a big backlash for being too difficult for those with little sim racing experience, and for not catering to the "progression" desired by the average gamer.
Swapping to rally games specifically, the more accessible titles (primarily the CMR and DiRT series) have significantly outsold the more difficult, but arguably better, Richard Burns Rally.

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I had H.Sepp going crazy on me today, top 10 time but couldn't beat him, and I love it :D

edit:screenshot
http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4066/tv533de8_jpg.htm  

yeah Monte AI seems fine

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I think the difficulty is pretty good overall, however, we could do with simulating AI retirements as well. Which is something i haven't seen yet.

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For the most part the AI times are fine but 2 areas I can't even challenge them with reset scumming.  2010 races and Monte freaking Carlo.  I can smoke them in Group B, Group A. I can beat the soundly on different surfaces like at Pikes Peak or tarmac at Germany but Monte Carlo I can't do it. And in a 2010 car I get outpaced by the second split time.

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WarOnHugs said:
For the most part the AI times are fine but 2 areas I can't even challenge them with reset scumming.  2010 races and Monte freaking Carlo.  I can smoke them in Group B, Group A. I can beat the soundly on different surfaces like at Pikes Peak or tarmac at Germany but Monte Carlo I can't do it. And in a 2010 car I get outpaced by the second split time.
I had the same problem in the beginning, it's why I avoided the 2010 cars for so long and didn't upgrade them until a couple of weeks ago, and by then I won Monte comfortably in the Fiesta without upgrades. They demand an entirely different driving style compared to other cars in the game. Extremely late braking and general smoothness helps a lot. Do some practice in custom events and you will get the hang of them eventually.

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I'm not sure if they AI is too good or not but it sure is weird. Seems no matter how well (or badly) I drive I end up in the 4-6 slots and all the other drivers crash to make it happen. If I drive none of the other drivers seem to crash but if I do badly other drives seem to crash in sympathy.

What I would like to see at the end of a race a storyboard of what happened. If I finish 4th but got moved to 3rd place I want to know who crashed out to make it possible.

I also think the times of each tier are too close Open and Elite don't seem all that different (I have yet to make it to masters so I don't know about that). With all the daily events that have been run they should have the data to do a statistical analysis on what the average class/tier/condition time should be and reverse engineer the current AI times to allow a given percentile past the line. Keep in mind the people that buy into a pre-release tend to be much better than thoes that will be the final target market.

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WarOnHugs said:
For the most part the AI times are fine but 2 areas I can't even challenge them with reset scumming.  2010 races and Monte freaking Carlo.  I can smoke them in Group B, Group A. I can beat the soundly on different surfaces like at Pikes Peak or tarmac at Germany but Monte Carlo I can't do it. And in a 2010 car I get outpaced by the second split time.
I had the same problem in the beginning, it's why I avoided the 2010 cars for so long and didn't upgrade them until a couple of weeks ago, and by then I won Monte comfortably in the Fiesta without upgrades. They demand an entirely different driving style compared to other cars in the game. Extremely late braking and general smoothness helps a lot. Do some practice in custom events and you will get the hang of them eventually.
I generally don't use the Scandinavian flick in hairpins, I think it slows me down, I could be wrong, but I had no problems with 2010 cars anywhere, good drive all around.

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I think that rally ia is okay, could be more dificult, because in elite is posible and easy to win stages and rallies, and in elite must have to be extreme difficult to win. In rallycross is really really really easy they go so slow, i can do the joker every lap and win it in elite

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I think that rally ia is okay, could be more dificult, because in elite is posible and easy to win stages and rallies, and in elite must have to be extreme difficult to win. In rallycross is really really really easy they go so slow, i can do the joker every lap and win it in elite
Did you try master yet? That poses more of a challenge.

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Spokster said:
I think that rally ia is okay, could be more dificult, because in elite is posible and easy to win stages and rallies, and in elite must have to be extreme difficult to win. In rallycross is really really really easy they go so slow, i can do the joker every lap and win it in elite
Did you try master yet? That poses more of a challenge.
Yes, i make a mistakes, i write elite but i was trying to say master

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I think that rally ia is okay, could be more dificult, because in elite is posible and easy to win stages and rallies, and in elite must have to be extreme difficult to win. In rallycross is really really really easy they go so slow, i can do the joker every lap and win it in elite
Dude, did you see my post above ?
http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4066/tv533de8_jpg.htm

That screenshot means: At that time (last week) there were a maximum number of 9 ! players that could have beaten H.Sepp on that stage worldwide, if that's too easy for you...
AI are not always in top form, and their strength varies in different car/stage combinations.



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kobeshow said:
I think that rally ia is okay, could be more dificult, because in elite is posible and easy to win stages and rallies, and in elite must have to be extreme difficult to win. In rallycross is really really really easy they go so slow, i can do the joker every lap and win it in elite
Dude, did you see my post above ?
http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4066/tv533de8_jpg.htm

That screenshot means: At that time (last week) there were a maximum number of 9 ! players that could have beaten H.Sepp on that stage worldwide, if that's too easy for you...
AI are not always in top form, and their strength varies in different car/stage combinations.



Seen it now, sepp was in a good mood that day LOL, but it is normal to win some stages uf you go flat out, that stage that day sepp was really Fast but normally they go more slow, in baumholder with a world p3 i made a 10sec gap to ruzcika(fastest guy un my dirt)

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I disagree...it's exceedingly difficult, but that's also what I love about it.  I'd like to think I'm really good, but I think the stats show otherwise.  I have finally just made it to Professional for my first time after 94 hours of gameplay.  I *rarely* have a section in green, and finishes above third place are extremely rare for me...second a few times and I have never achieved first place.

It has definitely not deterred me, although I thought I'd never get to see the course layouts for Professional and am about to for my first time at long last, and it makes it more rewarding.

So on to RallyCross...I haven't invested much time in that and play it now and again, but I'll be happy the day I have a finish above 16th place.  :/
Again, I know many others can beat it, so I've concluded I'm just simply not that good yet.  

I am slowly improving over time and that suffices for me.  I wanted realism and I found it in this game.  I'd rather not water down the uber experience it gives me.

PS if you would like to add me on Steam for time comparisons in Dirt Rally, my name on there is mindsignals as well.

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I'm nearly sure I beat the AI by over a minute & a half on a stage before in an un-upgraded car. I thought it strange...

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It's only difficult when you think you're a pretty good driver while you actually aren't. Game takes a while to adapt to in terms of driving. I went with a "either I win a stage, or I restart it" attitude for most time since the start of the game. Result was that I got up to speed in the game by repeating the stages over and over again and I won all the events and championships.

Bottom line: it's not the game that is hard (even though there are few stages were the AI makes bonkers times), it's the player who doesn't want to acknowledge they aren't driving fast.

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